Simple Balloon "Rocket"...

Here you go septic, there is a vacuum in the tube.
http://makearadio.com/tube/6ba7-superhet.php
If you are smart enough to read the circuit you will notice that is real smart. ie not flat

No, here isn't a vacuum in the tube. There is a low pressure with inert gas.
This is what happens when you try to make a vacuum.
#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Railroad tank car vacuum implosion

Don't pretend a glass tube can ever hold anything but a lower pressure.

Cant read a circuit A

Quote from: guv on November 19, 2014, 04:51:48 AM

Here you go septic, there is a vacuum in the tube.
http://makearadio.com/tube/6ba7-superhet.php
If you are smart enough to read the circuit you will notice that is real smart. ie not flat

No, here isn't a vacuum in the tube. There is a low pressure with inert gas.
This is what happens when you try to make a vacuum.
#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Railroad tank car vacuum implosion

Don't pretend a glass tube can ever hold anything but a lower pressure.

Do you have an example of a container designed to handle large pressure differentials doing this?  Or are you basing your entire world view on this one video?

Glad scepti finally accepts that a vacuum can be achieved. Notice that existence didn't end inside the tank during implosion.

Since you guys are so smart. Maybe you can explain why air pressure can crush a steel tank, but lets a thin glass tube survive.

Since you guys are so smart. Maybe you can explain why air pressure can crush a steel tank, but lets a thin glass tube survive.

Well the description in the video specifically states that the safety valve was disabled.

Quote from: hoppy on November 19, 2014, 07:49:08 AM

Since you guys are so smart. Maybe you can explain why air pressure can crush a steel tank, but lets a thin glass tube survive.

Well the description in the video specifically states that the safety valve was disabled.

Right, if the safety valve had operated the pressure would have equalized. The tank would not have collapsed. Without the valve, pulling a near vacuum allowed normal air pressure to collapse a steel tanker car.I doubt that a thin glass tube is stronger than steel used to make tankers.

Quote from: rottingroom on November 19, 2014, 07:56:15 AM

Quote from: hoppy on November 19, 2014, 07:49:08 AM

Since you guys are so smart. Maybe you can explain why air pressure can crush a steel tank, but lets a thin glass tube survive.

Well the description in the video specifically states that the safety valve was disabled.

Right, if the safety valve had operated the pressure would have equalized. The tank would not have collapsed. Without the valve, pulling a near vacuum allowed normal air pressure to collapse a steel tanker car.I doubt that a thin glass tube is stronger than steel used to make tankers.

Well doesn't the fact that there is a better seal and the lack of a safety valve mean something? It's a function of difference in pressure and strength of container. The glass valves we see would most likely break if they overdid the vacuum too. In those examples not all of the air is removed. The point is to show what happens when air is removed, not necessarily all of it since removing all of it would just break the container and prevent one from showing the feather experiment. If you insist on calling the inside of this train cart a perfect vacuum then you'll notice that it didn't end existence. It just collapsed the container because enough air was removed to overcome the containers strength.

Quote from: rottingroom on November 19, 2014, 07:56:15 AM

Quote from: hoppy on November 19, 2014, 07:49:08 AM

Since you guys are so smart. Maybe you can explain why air pressure can crush a steel tank, but lets a thin glass tube survive.

Well the description in the video specifically states that the safety valve was disabled.

Right, if the safety valve had operated the pressure would have equalized. The tank would not have collapsed. Without the valve, pulling a near vacuum allowed normal air pressure to collapse a steel tanker car.I doubt that a thin glass tube is stronger than steel used to make tankers.

You couldn't be more wrong. Crush a soda can in your hands. Crush a test tube in your hands. Which one was harder?

That was easy.

There was a scientist couple who were fascinated by the vacuum at the top of a barometer. Coincidentally they died of mercury poisoning. I can't think of their names though.   

Since you guys are so smart. Maybe you can explain why air pressure can crush a steel tank, but lets a thin glass tube survive.

Structural strength of design, material, and surface area in relation to material thickness.  A tank the same size and shape as the one in the video made of glass of the same thickness of a small test tube would probably last nowhere near as long. 

Since you guys are so smart. Maybe you can explain why air pressure can crush a steel tank, but lets a thin glass tube survive.

Since you asked, glad to oblige.

The glass envelope of a 6A7 6BA7 vacuum tube is ⁷/₈" diameter and about 2" long, ignoring the tip, according to a data sheet. Others here give similar dimensions.

The railroad car appears to be about 2.4m diameter and at least 7m long, assuming standard German track gauge (1.435 m - call it 1.5m) and estimating the diameter from that. Length was guesstimated by assuming the wheelbase of each truck is spaced equal to the gauge - this is the best I can come up with on the spur of the moment.

Using this, the area of the cylindrical sides will be the product of pi times diameter times length, or

pi * ⁷/₈ in * 2 in
 = pi (⁷/₄ in²)

Converting railcar dimensions to inches gives diameter 100" (hey, it's an estimate) and length 280 inches. The area of its cylindrical sides is

pi * (100 in * 280 in)
 = pi (28000 in²)

The ratio of these is

( pi * 28000 in² ) / ( pi * ⁷/₄ in² )
 = 28000 * 4 / 7
 = 4000 * 4
 = 16000

The ends will add additional area as pi (d/2)² times two (for two ends), ignoring their slightly convex shapes. Since the rail car failed from the side, and the ratio of end areas is similar (~13000 : 1, I think), considering only the cylinder and ignoring the ends is probably adequate for this.

This means the sides of the tank car has about sixteen thousand times as much area as the little glass tube's cylinder, which makes the force sixteen thousand times as great if the pressure differential is the same. I suspect it's likely that the strength of the glass envelope is much more uniform than the steel cylinder, and the weakest point on each is where it will start to fail, so the average strength of the rail car sides must be still greater than that proportion.

It's all a matter of areas, and the train car has vastly more than the tube.

If anyone has better dimensions for the rail car, please provide.

[Edit] Clarify by stating "wheelbase" instead of "wheel spacing"
[Edit] Oops... that's a 6BA7 tube

Quote from: neimoka on November 18, 2014, 10:41:27 PM

Of course I have no clue how it all works, this revolutionary theory is so unintuitive for us who understand classic laws of motion that in-depth explanation of these mechanics is required but you refuse to give it. Too bad, I would have had couple more questions ad well, force that moves the ball up while no external force is applied was just one thing to get cleared up.

I told you I'd converse with you, but to do so, you better stop sucking up and following those pricks I binned and think for yourself.

Very well, thinking all by my self here. What we've got so far: I push that medicine ball up, using force to give it energy; it gets a bit warm and compresses, but not noticeably. The ball's upward movement is resisted by air, pressurized by the ball's motion. We've established this much, right?

So. Looking at the moment the ball loses contact with my hand. It continues to move up, although I'm no longer applying a force to it, and at the same time air pressure above it resists that movement. At this moment in time, what force makes the ball move up, against the air pressure?

So. Looking at the moment the ball loses contact with my hand. It continues to move up, although I'm no longer applying a force to it, and at the same time air pressure above it resists that movement. At this moment in time, what force makes the ball move up, against the air pressure?

LOL... I'm waiting with bated breath to see just what sort of fairy story sceptimatic will fabricate for this one.

Obviously, I know the answer, as does everyone else here, but I'd almost bet my left testicle that sceptimatic—true to previous form—will have not the faintest idea.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2014, 02:17:33 AM

Quote from: neimoka on November 18, 2014, 10:41:27 PM

Of course I have no clue how it all works, this revolutionary theory is so unintuitive for us who understand classic laws of motion that in-depth explanation of these mechanics is required but you refuse to give it. Too bad, I would have had couple more questions ad well, force that moves the ball up while no external force is applied was just one thing to get cleared up.

I told you I'd converse with you, but to do so, you better stop sucking up and following those pricks I binned and think for yourself.

Very well, thinking all by my self here. What we've got so far: I push that medicine ball up, using force to give it energy; it gets a bit warm and compresses, but not noticeably. The ball's upward movement is resisted by air, pressurized by the ball's motion. We've established this much, right?

So. Looking at the moment the ball loses contact with my hand. It continues to move up, although I'm no longer applying a force to it, and at the same time air pressure above it resists that movement. At this moment in time, what force makes the ball move up, against the air pressure?

The force you applied created a lower pressure below the ball and compressed compressed the air above, creating a wave of  pressure around the ball to equalise the lower pressure you created under the ball.
To explain it better you might like to imagine a boat on water, as I said before. This gives you a perfect sight example of what's happening.

All it is, is the atmosphere in an action/reaction from the point of release of the ball and your energy applied to that release.

So again, if pressure decreases inversely with your altitude, which it in fact does, why doesn't the lower pressure air at the surface push everything in to the air?

Denpressure predicts the opposite of what you intend.

The force you applied created a lower pressure below the ball and compressed compressed the air above, creating a wave of  pressure around the ball to equalise the lower pressure you created under the ball.
To explain it better you might like to imagine a boat on water, as I said before. This gives you a perfect sight example of what's happening.

All it is, is the atmosphere in an action/reaction from the point of release of the ball and your energy applied to that release.

Why did I just know I wasn't gonna see the words "kinetic energy" or "momentum" in this nonsensical response?

           

Quote from: neimoka on November 19, 2014, 11:18:35 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2014, 02:17:33 AM

Quote from: neimoka on November 18, 2014, 10:41:27 PM

Of course I have no clue how it all works, this revolutionary theory is so unintuitive for us who understand classic laws of motion that in-depth explanation of these mechanics is required but you refuse to give it. Too bad, I would have had couple more questions ad well, force that moves the ball up while no external force is applied was just one thing to get cleared up.

I told you I'd converse with you, but to do so, you better stop sucking up and following those pricks I binned and think for yourself.

Very well, thinking all by my self here. What we've got so far: I push that medicine ball up, using force to give it energy; it gets a bit warm and compresses, but not noticeably. The ball's upward movement is resisted by air, pressurized by the ball's motion. We've established this much, right?

So. Looking at the moment the ball loses contact with my hand. It continues to move up, although I'm no longer applying a force to it, and at the same time air pressure above it resists that movement. At this moment in time, what force makes the ball move up, against the air pressure?

The force you applied created a lower pressure below the ball and compressed compressed the air above, creating a wave of  pressure around the ball to equalise the lower pressure you created under the ball.
To explain it better you might like to imagine a boat on water, as I said before. This gives you a perfect sight example of what's happening.

All it is, is the atmosphere in an action/reaction from the point of release of the ball and your energy applied to that release.

Yes, so once again, the ball is flowing from low pressure to high pressure. This is the opposite of what is observed with objects blowing in the wind( and wind itself) and airplane wings.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2014, 02:50:15 PM

Quote from: neimoka on November 19, 2014, 11:18:35 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2014, 02:17:33 AM

Quote from: neimoka on November 18, 2014, 10:41:27 PM

Of course I have no clue how it all works, this revolutionary theory is so unintuitive for us who understand classic laws of motion that in-depth explanation of these mechanics is required but you refuse to give it. Too bad, I would have had couple more questions ad well, force that moves the ball up while no external force is applied was just one thing to get cleared up.

I told you I'd converse with you, but to do so, you better stop sucking up and following those pricks I binned and think for yourself.

Very well, thinking all by my self here. What we've got so far: I push that medicine ball up, using force to give it energy; it gets a bit warm and compresses, but not noticeably. The ball's upward movement is resisted by air, pressurized by the ball's motion. We've established this much, right?

So. Looking at the moment the ball loses contact with my hand. It continues to move up, although I'm no longer applying a force to it, and at the same time air pressure above it resists that movement. At this moment in time, what force makes the ball move up, against the air pressure?

The force you applied created a lower pressure below the ball and compressed compressed the air above, creating a wave of  pressure around the ball to equalise the lower pressure you created under the ball.
To explain it better you might like to imagine a boat on water, as I said before. This gives you a perfect sight example of what's happening.

All it is, is the atmosphere in an action/reaction from the point of release of the ball and your energy applied to that release.

Yes, so once again, the ball is flowing from low pressure to high pressure. This is the opposite of what is observed with objects blowing in the wind( and wind itself) and airplane wings.

Pay attention.
Low pressure is created by the compression of the air  with the ball by the energy of the push.
You pushed the air in front of the ball into a higher pressure (compression) and you left a low pressure under that ball by doing this.
It's not flowing, it's creating.

Let's try this another way and you may get it.

Let's imagine I throw the ball at your face from 5 feet away. Your face feels the pressure from that ball before it hits your face, because it's compressing the air towards your face. Or to put it in wind terms, you're getting hit by the wind in a wave form.

Want it easier?

Let's get in a nice calm swimming pool. I have swimming trunks on and you are wearing a bikini for some reason, which I'm entitled to have you wear, as this is my post. 

Any back to serious.

Now I push the ball towards you. What do you see coming towards you before the ball? You see a wave spanning out, right?

You also notice that the wave from where I pushed the ball, is much thinner, so it's sort of spanned out like a speaker  volume digital display or like a cone.
You also notice that it arcs back around, because that pressure wave is now going back around to equalise. See what I'm saying?

Ok, get dressed and get that bloody bikini off, it's embarrassing. 

Pay attention.
Low pressure is created by the compression of the air  with the ball by the energy of the push.
You pushed the air in front of the ball into a higher pressure (compression) and you left a low pressure under that ball by doing this.
It's not flowing, it's creating

Yes I understand. But you seem to be forgetting the ball is moving upwards at this point. The ball is moving (flowing) from low pressure to high pressure.

Let's try this another way and you may get it.

Let's imagine I throw the ball at your face from 5 feet away. Your face feels the pressure from that ball before it hits your face, because it's compressing the air towards your face. Or to put it in wind terms, you're getting hit by the wind in a wave form.

Yes that is true. But remember you don't believe in inertia. So air pressure is responsible for all the movement in the ball. There is a high pressure in front of the ball but there still needs to be pressure behind it to push the ball. So once again, the ball is moving from low pressure to high pressure. (and somehow low pressure is stronger than high pressure.)

Now I push the ball towards you. What do you see coming towards you before the ball? You see a wave spanning out, right?

You also notice that the wave from where I pushed the ball, is much thinner, so it's sort of spanned out like a speaker  volume digital display or like a cone.
You also notice that it arcs back around, because that pressure wave is now going back around to equalise. See what I'm saying?

Ok, get dressed and get that bloody bikini off, it's embarrassing. 

So once again inertia doesn't exist. So you push a floating ball and waves do come out from in front of it. Then you let go and air pressure takes over. Somehow air pressure came out of no where to keep the ball moving. The air pressure also slows it down for some reason. It's an air pressure battle royal to see who is champion. In the end, the air pressure in the front wins and the ball stops. Who knows why. Maybe it the fact that no 20 mph tail wind was found to keep the ball moving once you let it go.

Yes I understand. But you seem to be forgetting the ball is moving upwards at this point. The ball is moving (flowing) from low pressure to high pressure.

No. It starts off under slightly higher pressure pushing down before your energy changes all that. You know, action, then reaction. It is never exact unison. There's always action first with energy applied to create the higher pressure which then creates the lower pressure in super milliseconds for the sake of it.The point is, it's still action then reaction.

Yes that is true. But remember you don't believe in inertia. So air pressure is responsible for all the movement in the ball. There is a high pressure in front of the ball but there still needs to be pressure behind it to push the ball. So once again, the ball is moving from low pressure to high pressure. (and somehow low pressure is stronger than high pressure.)

Yes and the pressure behind to push the ball comes from the compression in front of it, which is forced around the ball and hits the flow of low pressure like a spring (if you like) and pushes the ball.
It's like you doing the breast stroke to propel yourself forward.
Your arms and hands scoop the water behind you creating a low pressure in front of you and creating a compression behind you which hits the water behind like a spring and pushes you through the void created in front (low pressure)

All you've done is the opposite of ball push.

An easier thing is to think of a mole burrowing undrground. It grabs the soil in front creating an opening and shoves it behind ( breast stroke).
The only difference with soil is, it doesn't flow back at it like a spring but stays put.

See what I'm saying?

So once again inertia doesn't exist. So you push a floating ball and waves do come out from in front of it. Then you let go and air pressure takes over. Somehow air pressure came out of no where to keep the ball moving. The air pressure also slows it down for some reason. It's an air pressure battle royal to see who is champion. In the end, the air pressure in the front wins and the ball stops. Who knows why. Maybe it the fact that no 20 mph tail wind was found to keep the ball moving once you let it go.

Yes it's a battle royal. It's always energy and resistance but it has to work this way to create movement. Otehrwise we simply do not exist.
Honestly, have a serious think over what I'm saying. If you shrug it off, then fair enough, no problem. Maybe someone will get what I'm saying.

Quote from: sokarul on November 19, 2014, 03:39:38 PM

Yes I understand. But you seem to be forgetting the ball is moving upwards at this point. The ball is moving (flowing) from low pressure to high pressure.

No. It starts off under slightly higher pressure pushing down before your energy changes all that. You know, action, then reaction. It is never exact unison. There's always action first with energy applied to create the higher pressure which then creates the lower pressure in super milliseconds for the sake of it.The point is, it's still action then reaction.

Yes action then reaction. We are nto talking about that. We are talking about air pressure.

Yes and the pressure behind to push the ball comes from the compression in front of it, which is forced around the ball and hits the flow of low pressure like a spring (if you like) and pushes the ball.

So yes, once again, the ball is moving from high pressure to low pressure. And like I said, this would be like wind coming at you from the front and blowing you into the wind. This never happens. Wind blows into an object, creating a slightly higher pressure at the surface it hits. In doing so it also pushes the object, thus the object moves in the direction with the wind, not against it. You claim an object is blow against the wind, as in, against high pressure. But this is never seen. So why can a ball do it but a leaf can't? It's because a ball can't do it. There is no spring effect from air wrapping around an object.
 

It's like you doing the breast stroke to propel yourself forward.

No, that is your equal and opposite reaction. A person is pushing them self off water, like a person can push them self off a diving board. This is not the same thing as aerodynamics.

Your arms and hands scoop the water behind you creating a low pressure in front of you and creating a compression behind you which hits the water behind like a spring and pushes you through the void created in front (low pressure)

No and this is opposite of what you just said. You now say there is a low pressure in front of you, when in the ball experiment, you said the low pressure what behind you. You concede your ball argument.

All you've done is the opposite of ball push.

Yet you get the same movement?

An easier thing is to think of a mole burrowing undrground. It grabs the soil in front creating an opening and shoves it behind ( breast stroke).
The only difference with soil is, it doesn't flow back at it like a spring but stays put.

Fluid dynamics shouldn't be compared to non fluids.

See what I'm saying?

I see you like to argue with yourself.

Yes it's a battle royal. It's always energy and resistance but it has to work this way to create movement. Otehrwise we simply do not exist.

Honestly, have a serious think over what I'm saying. If you shrug it off, then fair enough, no problem. Maybe someone will get what I'm saying.

Why don't you have a think over what I said. And then come back and explain how a ball can travel from low to high pressure but a swimmer travels from high to low pressure.

Sorry, sokarul, I've wasted enough time on you. You'll never grasp it and probably never want to grasp anything other than what you were saturated with from an early age to present.

Sorry, sokarul, I've wasted enough time on you. You'll never grasp it and probably never want to grasp anything other than what you were saturated with from an early age to present.

I love the way sceptimatic throws a hissy fit and takes his bat and ball home whenever the other kids won't play to his rules LOL.

Insult him a few more times sokarul (it's not difficult, trust me) and with a bit of luck, he'll include you on his IGNORE list along with the rest of us luckier round earthers.   

Sorry, sokarul, I've wasted enough time on you. You'll never grasp it and probably never want to grasp anything other than what you were saturated with from an early age to present.

I just destroyed you.

Yes and the pressure behind to push the ball comes from the compression in front of it, which is forced around the ball and hits the flow of low pressure like a spring (if you like) and pushes the ball.

Your arms and hands scoop the water behind you creating a low pressure in front of you and creating a compression behind you which hits the water behind like a spring and pushes you through the void created in front (low pressure)

RIP denpressure.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2014, 04:32:56 PM

Sorry, sokarul, I've wasted enough time on you. You'll never grasp it and probably never want to grasp anything other than what you were saturated with from an early age to present.

I just destroyed you.

Quote from: sceptictank

Yes and the pressure behind to push the ball comes from the compression in front of it, which is forced around the ball and hits the flow of low pressure like a spring (if you like) and pushes the ball.

Quote

Your arms and hands scoop the water behind you creating a low pressure in front of you and creating a compression behind you which hits the water behind like a spring and pushes you through the void created in front (low pressure)

RIP denpressure.

Let this be a lesson for you in the art of absorbing reality. Living in a fantasy world will make you a bitter person in later life when you realise that your fantasies were exactly that and not reality as you naively believed.

Living in a fantasy world will make you a bitter person in later life...

Going by that little homily, sceptimatic must have the personality traits of a grapefruit.   

Quote from: sokarul on November 19, 2014, 04:52:28 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2014, 04:32:56 PM

Sorry, sokarul, I've wasted enough time on you. You'll never grasp it and probably never want to grasp anything other than what you were saturated with from an early age to present.

I just destroyed you.

Quote from: sceptictank

Yes and the pressure behind to push the ball comes from the compression in front of it, which is forced around the ball and hits the flow of low pressure like a spring (if you like) and pushes the ball.

Quote

Your arms and hands scoop the water behind you creating a low pressure in front of you and creating a compression behind you which hits the water behind like a spring and pushes you through the void created in front (low pressure)

RIP denpressure.

Let this be a lesson for you in the art of absorbing reality. Living in a fantasy world will make you a bitter person in later life when you realise that your fantasies were exactly that and not reality as you naively believed.

Yes. Sokural destroying sceptis world view is a lesson for sokural.

Well din't that escalate nicely. Above arguments addressed most of what I was thinking about there, so I'll just move on to the next question. Earlier you stated that denser objects appear heavier and require a greater force to move because they displace more air; is air a special case in this regard, or does it apply to all materials - any matter displaces an amount of any fluid, proportional only to it's density - is this correct?

Well din't that escalate nicely. Above arguments addressed most of what I was thinking about there, so I'll just move on to the next question. Earlier you stated that denser objects appear heavier and require a greater force to move because they displace more air; is air a special case in this regard, or does it apply to all materials - any matter displaces an amount of any fluid, proportional only to it's density - is this correct?

Well there you go. Your arrguments have been addressed by your friends. No need to ask me anything. Just ask them. 

"My  arguments"? You should notice that I did not make one, I was just asking questions. Can you shed light on displacement (question in my previous post).