Wind on the Round Earth

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Wind on the Round Earth
« on: August 07, 2006, 12:20:40 AM »
Okay, so I didn't find this question in the FAQ, and I figured it'd be safe to post something here about it. Wind. On the flat earth model, wind is caused by low and high air pressure systems. The air tries to move to the area of less pressure and such. But how would this work on a flat earth?

However, wind is also caused by the rotation of the earth. This is how winds such as the Jetsream remain constant. I know I'm going to get the, "The Jetstream moves in a circle" arguement, but why would the winds caused by the rotation of the earth move the opposite direction in the Southern hemisphere.

I'm sure the Coriolis effect has been addressed several times, but I have yet to see it, and I would like an answer for how it works on the Flat Earth model. I just don't see why it would happen unless you were on a Round Earth.

So ultimately my questions are: "Why is there areas of low and high pressure on a flat earth?", "If not the global rotation causing winds, what does?", and "Why would the Coriolis Effect magically appear below the equator on the flat earth?" I apologize if these questions have already been asked numerous times, but I would most certainly like answers to them. Thank you.
 am a round-earther traversing this site to disprove false claims and bring the light of science to those who remain in the dark without it. Thank you for your time.

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2006, 12:27:48 AM »
Forget trying to get them to relize its a round earth.

Everything has a reason in their flat earth conspiracy or whatever.
hy would the government want to hide the fact that the earth was flat? What would they have to gain from misleading everyone into thinking the earth was round?

Re: Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2006, 01:37:18 AM »
Quote from: "Aralith"

I'm sure the Coriolis effect has been addressed several times, but I have yet to see it, and I would like an answer for how it works on the Flat Earth model. I just don't see why it would happen unless you were on a Round Earth.

Quote from: "So I"

Coriolis is in their FAQ under "Unanswered" which I think means "Doesn't work in a flat Earth model"

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2006, 11:54:57 PM »
Well, of course it doesn't in the official FAQ, but there are plenty of questions that have attempted to be answered by FE'ers, so that's really what I'm looking for, so that I can refute it with concrete scientific proof.
 am a round-earther traversing this site to disprove false claims and bring the light of science to those who remain in the dark without it. Thank you for your time.

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2006, 11:56:22 PM »
the problem is not with the force itself, but with the reversal of the force on each side of the earth
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2006, 11:57:43 PM »
The wind is mostly caused by heating cooling of the air as the sun and moon move around this disc of the earth, generationg night and day, and causing pressure differences due to the temperature
lat earth - almost, but not quite, certain

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2006, 11:59:09 PM »
Exactly. That's the problem that I want to hear an answer to. Why would winds move opposite directions, and toilets turn the opposite direction in the Southern hemisphere than how they move in the Northern hemisphere. It just doesn't make sense on a flat earth, which is why I want an answer. It may have been addressed in other threads, but I haven't seen an answer yet.
 am a round-earther traversing this site to disprove false claims and bring the light of science to those who remain in the dark without it. Thank you for your time.

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2006, 12:16:15 AM »
Quote from: "Aralith"
Why would winds move opposite directions, and toilets turn the opposite direction in the Southern hemisphere


Winds, Yes. Toilets, baths, sinks, No. The coriollis effect is very small, and is overwhelmed by just about anything else in small scale cases. It's a myth that water goes down plug holes etc in opposite directions in opposite hemispheres.

Coriollis does, however, affect storms, and the flatties have never managed to explain it.

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2006, 12:29:01 AM »
cyclones always go clockwise in the northern hemisphere, and anticlockwise in the southern hemisphere. therefore, the world is a sphere.

you flat-earthers can't come up with an argument for that one.
he computer genius guy

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Erasmus

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Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2006, 11:34:03 AM »
As for the whole high-pressure/low-pressure thing, there's no reason that air cannot be under various pressures in different places on a flat Earth, creating wind just as it does on a round Earth.

As for the Coriolis effect, here's my first attempt at an explanation: the sun moves clockwise around the Earth over the equator, right?  Well, this heats the air directly under the sun which is then pushed away from the equator.  The sun then moves and heats air that's farther west, and the air that the sun was previously over cools off slightly and therefore is pushed away from the equator with a lesser force (since pressure is proportional to temperature).  This is illustrated in the following figure:



This is a top-down view of a wedge of the flat Earth with the sun above.  The solid yellow circle represents the sun's current position, whereas the dashed circle is its position at some time in the recent past.

The cyan arrows represent the air flow induced by the increased pressure that is the result of the air being heated by the sun.  Note that the arrows are longer for the sun's current position, because the air is warmer there.

Consider especially the arrows labelled E and D (projecting from the "old" position) and B' and C' (projecting from the "new" position).  What is the total effect of these arrows?  i.e., what wind will be experienced here?  It is essentially the sum of the different arrows, (E + C') + (D + B').  I've arranged the terms in this fashion because the arrows that are grouped together are approximately antiparallel, making them easy to add together.  That is, E is pointing almost exacly opposite to C'.  However, E is larger than C', which means the sum of these two arrows will be a shorter arrow pointing more or less in the direction of E (i.e. approximately northeast).  Similarly, D + B' is a short arrow pointing more or less in the direction of D (i.e. approximately southeast).  Clearly, these two short arrows sum to an arrow pointing due east, which agrees with the coriolis effect.

As we get farther away from the equator, it becomes more clear that the winds predicted by this model agree with the coriolis effect: consider arrows A and A'.  The are approximately parallel and point to the northeast, so their sum will also point to the northeast.  Similarly, C and C' sum to a wind moving southeast.  The "total" picture is as follows:



As we get even farther from the equator, the air is longer sufficiently heated by the sun, and when the warm tropical winds meet this cold front they are reflected back south, creating the cyclical effect we observe in tropical storms.

Thus we can that solar heating on the flat Earth predicts the winds necessary to create the Coriolis effect.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2006, 03:41:10 PM »
Wait hold on. This might make some sense, but there is one step that appears flawed to me. Why would you add the four vectors together. That doesn't make sense. Also, how does the straight line vectors, suddenly create winds that turn in opposite directions. Those were the two places that you lost me at. Other than that it sounds good (though I still don't believe that's what's actually causing the Coriolis effect).
 am a round-earther traversing this site to disprove false claims and bring the light of science to those who remain in the dark without it. Thank you for your time.

?

Erasmus

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Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2006, 03:52:27 PM »
Quote from: "Aralith"
Wait hold on. This might make some sense, but there is one step that appears flawed to me. Why would you add the four vectors together.


Each vector represents a component of the total force on the air.  The longer vectors are the more recently generated forces.  To determine the overall force on the air, we need to sum up all the component forces.

Imagine that instead of air molecules and heat, we have ... leaves on the surface of a river.  In order to determine which way the leaves go, which have to consider the sum of the surface velocity vector of the water and the velocity vector of the wind.

Quote
Also, how does the straight line vectors, suddenly create winds that turn in opposite directions.


The change isn't sudden; that's the whole point.  It's a gradual change in direction as you get farther from the equator.  As you get farther from the equator, the influence of the sun is weaker, and so is the differential influence between the sun's current position and its previous position.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2006, 06:10:09 PM »
erasmus if this is true why is the same effect exhibited by a free hanging pendulum?

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Erasmus

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Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2006, 06:41:41 PM »
Quote from: "DrQuak"
erasmus if this is true why is the same effect exhibited by a free hanging pendulum?


Probably free-hanging pendula and wind are not governed by the same laws of nature.  The objects themselves are fairly different: one is a solid while one is a gas; one is fixed to the Earth at a single point whereas the other is not fixed to the Earth at all; one is confined to a laboratory whereas the other covers vast areas; one is essentially unaffected by the sun's rays whereas the dynamics of the other are primarily caused by those rays.

I don't agree that we should be so ready to conflate pendula with wind.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2006, 01:44:46 AM »
Ah yes, Erasumus, but that's what's so great about the Coriolis effect. It explains both of these naturally occuring phenomona. It explains wind and the free-hanging pendulum in one fell swoop with one law. I believe the term Occam's Razor comes into play here? Or Einstein's theory that the simplest explanation is usually the best? Well, which one's simpler: Two things being described by one effect, or two things being described by two effects? Also, Coriolis effect makes the least assumptions, simply because it follows the simplest explanation rule.
 am a round-earther traversing this site to disprove false claims and bring the light of science to those who remain in the dark without it. Thank you for your time.

?

Erasmus

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Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2006, 09:35:15 AM »
Quote from: "Aralith"
Ah yes, Erasumus, but that's what's so great about the Coriolis effect. It explains both of these naturally occuring phenomona.


Unfortunately it is not compatible with a flat Earth.

Quote
I believe the term Occam's Razor comes into play here? Or Einstein's theory that the simplest explanation is usually the best?


Occam's Razor is what is known as a heuristic -- a "rule of thumb".  That's what the "usually" bit means.  And that statement of Einstein's isn't a theory, it's just a restatement of Occam's Razor.

We are not interested here in ways of deciding between two equally useful theories.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2006, 11:47:22 AM »
Well, still let's look at it. The Coriolis effect recognized that these two things occured and then said, "Aha. This is caused because the world is a sphere and I can explain why." What you're doing Erasumus is saying, "The world is flat, therefore, the Coriolis effect cannot happen for the reasons explained, therefore I will attempt to create a theory to explain this."

That's backwards. Science is supposed to start with an observation and then make a conclusion. You're starting with the conclusion and then trying to find theories to make the observation fit it. Very wrong and backwards way of doing things.
 am a round-earther traversing this site to disprove false claims and bring the light of science to those who remain in the dark without it. Thank you for your time.

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2006, 12:23:10 PM »
Actually he made an observation of the shape of the earth, made an observation that all data beside that force fits it, and now is determining why that force does not fit... thats perfectly scientific.
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2006, 04:10:48 AM »
No, I don't believe Erasmus made an observation of the shape of the Earth. I doubt Erasamus has ever been to sufficient altitude to actually observe the shape of the Earth.

Given his stance as a Flattie, I'd also be willing to state that Erasamus has never actually conducted an experiment to measure the curvature (or lack thereof) of the Earth.

Flat Earthers: how can you say that sunset, things sinking below the horizon and the horizon receding or approaching as you climb up or down are optical illusions, yet believe that your eyes are so capable as to detect the shape of the Earth from simple observation?

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2006, 09:41:57 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
As for the whole high-pressure/low-pressure thing, there's no reason that air cannot be under various pressures in different places on a flat Earth, creating wind just as it does on a round Earth.

As for the Coriolis effect, here's my first attempt at an explanation: the sun moves clockwise around the Earth over the equator, right?  

Wrong.  The sun's position varies from season to season, between the tropics of Capricorn and Cancer.  It's only over the Equator during the solstice, The Coriolis effect does not, however move in the same way.

Nice try though, good graphics, very scientific looking. :)

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2006, 09:50:39 AM »
Quote from: "Aralith"
Exactly. That's the problem that I want to hear an answer to. Why would winds move opposite directions, and toilets turn the opposite direction in the Southern hemisphere than how they move in the Northern hemisphere. It just doesn't make sense on a flat earth, which is why I want an answer. It may have been addressed in other threads, but I haven't seen an answer yet.


All i will say to this one, is even though i am an Avowed REer, the Coriolis effect does not have anything like the efect you have mentioned.  In order to be able to test it,  scientists actually had to create a massive inertial dampened tank, fill it with over 150 tonnes of water, and then take out the plug, without disturbing the water,  after allowing it to settle for over 5 weeks.
The strength of the force shown was actually fairly negligible,  the gravitational attraction of a nearby mountain had more effect on the waters movement thatn the Coriolis effect did.

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Erasmus

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Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2006, 10:52:51 AM »
Quote from: "Curious"
The sun's position varies from season to season, between the tropics of Capricorn and Cancer.  It's only over the Equator during the solstice, The Coriolis effect does not, however move in the same way.


That's a good point.  However on average the sun's path is over the equator, and fluid has momentum.  Like a vibrating string or a swinging pendulum settling down into a steady state, it seems that the constantly shifting Coriolis force (I'm talking about it moving in the same way you are in your last sentence) might settle down to be directly over the equator over time.

In any case, I don't think that if a hurricane that forms in the southern hemisphere and drifts towards the equator will suddenly reverse direction -- fluids have momentum.  In that sense, the clockwise/counterclockwise rule is not strictly enforced.  What it really has an effect on is the formation of the rotation in the first place.  Thus I think that even if my "settling down" theory is wrong and you are right that that Coriolis force would have to "move around", I believe you would probably still see patterns like are actually seen in major storms.  Storms that seem to be forming in the "wrong" way could just be explained by the non-strictness in the application of the force.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Wind on the Round Earth
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2006, 12:52:38 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Curious"
The sun's position varies from season to season, between the tropics of Capricorn and Cancer.  It's only over the Equator during the solstice, The Coriolis effect does not, however move in the same way.


That's a good point.  However on average the sun's path is over the equator, and fluid has momentum.  Like a vibrating string or a swinging pendulum settling down into a steady state, it seems that the constantly shifting Coriolis force (I'm talking about it moving in the same way you are in your last sentence) might settle down to be directly over the equator over time.

In any case, I don't think that if a hurricane that forms in the southern hemisphere and drifts toward the equator will suddenly reverse direction -- fluids have momentum.  In that sense, the clockwise/counterclockwise rule is not strictly enforced.  What it really has an effect on is the formation of the rotation in the first place.  Thus I think that even if my "settling down" theory is wrong and you are right that that Coriolis force would have to "move around", I believe you would probably still see patterns like are actually seen in major storms.  Storms that seem to be forming in the "wrong" way could just be explained by the non-strictness in the application of the force.


Interesting idea, except to the best of my knowledge, hurricanes and cyclones do not cross the equator.  They normally don't form that close to the equator, which is why the one that slammed Brazil a few years ago was so unexpected.