@Alpha2Omega, i know that you know that you have no real arguments (just a mumbo jumbo type of arguments) to fight against obvious truth which says : The Earth is Flatly Flat! So, the final argument which is only capable to decide meritoriously about the real shape of the Earth is flatness of water's surface!
"[ I] know that you know ..." No, you don't "know" that. It's what you want to believe, which is different. First thing in your post is a bogus claim. Not a good start.
But before we get to the "TIDES ISSUE" & "NOAH'S ARK" A.K.A. "IMPOSSIBILITY OF A GREAT DELUGE TO HAPPEN ON THE GLOBULAR EARTH" ISSUE let's sum up what we have talked about so far:
Apparently there are still a lot of issues, though.
1. In order to evade inevitable negative implications of lack of a real stellar parallax, heliocentric liars absolutely arbitrarily increased astronomical distances all the way up to idiotic numbers. Copernicus started with 3 000 000 miles, and now we should chew up 92 000 000 miles (alleged distance between the Earth and the Sun)!!! Chew it up if you like, but don't expect of any reasonable person to get over it as if it were a mere detail!
Note that increasing the radius of earth's orbit
increases -
not decreases - parallax. Clearly you have a misunderstanding what you're arguing about. Why would astronomers "arbitrarily"
increase the length of the AU to "explain away" small values of stellar parallax? If that were their motive, they'd do the opposite. The first reasonably close measurement of the true value of the AU didn't occur until 1761 (as already discussed), well after Copernicus' (and Kepler's) time.
Oh, yes, you keep claiming that stellar parallax hasn't been measured. You're wrong.
"Liars". Again. In other words, you have no suitable explanation for this. Gotcha.
2. Has anybody ever tried to dispute this claim: "If the earth is at a given point in space on say January 1st, and according to present-day science, at a distance of 90,000,000 miles from that point six months afterwards, it follows that the relative position and direction of the stars will have greatly changed, however small the angle of parallax maybe. THAT THIS GREAT CHANGE IS NOWHERE APPARENT, AND HAS NEVER BEEN OBSERVED, incontestably proves that the earth is at rest — that it does not "move in an orbit round the sun."
"Has anybody ever tried to dispute this claim"? "Dispute"? All that's necessary is to point out that it's patently wrong.
Six months later earth will be
180,000,000 miles away, not 90,000 miles (using your approximate number). That 90,000,000 miles is the
radius of the Earth's orbit, not its
diameter, which is twice the radius; two times 90,000,000 miles is 180,000,000 miles. After half a year, the Earth has progressed halfway around it's orbit, so it's separated from that original point by the
diameter of the orbit, not the radius. I've tried to avoid "mumbo-jumbo" here and explain it as best I can; if you don't understand this, I may be out of ideas - perhaps someone else can explain it better.
Anyway, if you had used the correct figure, it would have made your next point stronger (but still wrong).
What does "direction of the stars will have greatly changed, however small the angle of parallax maybe" mean? Isn't "direction ... will have greatly changed" the opposite of "however small the angle"?
"THAT THIS GREAT [or small] CHANGE IS NOWHERE APPARENT, AND HAS NEVER BEEN OBSERVED". Can you prove the assertion that stellar parallax "HAS NEVER BEEN OBSERVED"? You can't, of course. We'll talk about "proving" things in a bit. There are tons of published studies of stellar parallax, though, by many independent researchers, so plenty of
evidence (not proof) that it can and has been measured. Whether you like it or not means exactly nothing.
3. When Heliocentrists failed to disprove the geocentric nature that we live in, they resorted to inventing assumptions, many of which are so absurd that the inventors themselves admit that they are unfalsifiable (by implication unscientific) thought-experiments. [Citation needed] Some of these assumptions include:
- the alleged tilt of the earth's axis,
It explains apparent motion of the Sun and the seasons nicely. Also Precession of the equinoxes. This should be easily falsiable. Where's the evidence?
- the so called Copernican principle,
Presuming otherwise has little value (other than, perhaps, spiritual, which is outside the realm of science) and makes many observations more difficult to explain.
- positive stellar parallax,
Examined and answered in an earlier post.
- uniformitiy of the speed of light,
- lengh contraction
- time dilation
These three are part of of the Theory of Relatively. It solved a 200-year mystery about the precession of the orbit of Mercury and many other observed and later-discovered phenomena. Although many have been tried, there have been no experiments that conclusively refute general relativity, but many that conclusively verify its predictions. It works so it is used.
- denial of inertia (only accepting an imaginary and isolated "chosen" inertial frame of reference)
The universe is thought to be inertial. This means that it is not, as a whole, accelerating, which, as a corollary, means that it isn't spinning. This does not mean that nothing in the universe accelerates (or spins), but the whole of the universe itself is not accelerating. We use reference frames that make calculations easiest. Sometimes we use earth-fixed reference frames, others, like when calculating orbits (which operate in the inertial frame) we use the inertial frame. There is no denial that inertia exists - you're again confusing terms.
- the earth supposedly moving at a various speeds (in order to account for the observed eclipses)
And yet the eclipses happen exactly as predicted decades in advance. If the model those predictions are based is wrong, how likely would that be? It appears that it has merit and the proof of the pudding is in the eating (that adage is often misquoted).
These and many other assumptions are presented as evidence to each other. In other words one assumption is used in order to prove another assumption. In fact these assumptions are so fundamentally dependent on each other that one becomes meaningless without the other, which shows that heliocentrists don't refrain from applying deceit (circular reasoning in this case) in order to make their assertions believable.
These models (you call them "assumptions") are verified by actual observations and measurements as we go, though. Sometimes better observations result in better measurements that require earlier models to be revised or occasionally thrown out altogether. This is how science works. If it were a simple matter of "it says this, therefore this is so" then things like the revision of the distance to Polaris by a significant factor wouldn't happen even after the more-reliable
parallax data was obtained. This isn't an "embarrassment" for science - it's a good example how it works: better measurements replace less-good or less-reliable measurements.
4. There is not one single scientific proof that could corroborate alleged "scientific" fact of the alleged Earth's revolution around the Sun!
5. There is not one single scientific proof that could corroborate alleged "scientific" fact of the alleged Earth's rotation on it's axis! http://www.energeticforum.com/256388-post62.html
This is a good place to discuss the idea of "scientific proof". This is a term often tossed out by both sides, but, as a fact, nothing can be formally 'proven' scientifically, at least not in the same sense as a mathematical theorem is formally proven.
Proofs have two features that do not exist in science: They are final, and they are binary. Once a theorem is proven, it will forever be true and there will be nothing in the future that will threaten its status as a proven theorem (unless a flaw is discovered in the proof). Apart from a discovery of an error, a proven theorem will forever and always be a proven theorem.
In contrast, all scientific knowledge is tentative and provisional, and nothing is final. There is no such thing as final proven knowledge in science. The currently accepted theory of a phenomenon is simply the best explanation for it among all available alternatives. Its status as the accepted theory is contingent on what other theories are available and might suddenly change tomorrow if there appears a better theory or new evidence that might challenge the accepted theory. No knowledge or theory (which embodies scientific knowledge) is final. That, by the way, is why science is so much fun.
From
hereSo you're technically right that neither of these things is 'proven', but, for the same reason, you'll never be able to 'prove' your model, either. While we can't 'prove' things, we
can judge our models (or theories) based on how well they fit observations, and how well they can predict observations that haven't been made yet. A heliocentric solar system with elliptical Keplerian orbits (with a dash or general relativity when needed) is damn good at explaining the observed motion of solar system bodies and predicting future motion of these bodies. How's that explanation of retrograde motion of planets with a fixed earth and everything going around it coming along, by the way?
Many, many things are so well understood, characterized, and measured to within a micron of their lives that the likelihood that our understanding of them will change fundamentally is vanishingly small. Still a remote possibility, but exceedingly unlikely.
6. There is no axial tilt of the Earth, as well as no proof for such a nonsensical product (of deluded heliocentric mind) to be real or to be in accordance with anything in reality!
Here we go with the "nonsensical" and "deluded" schtick again, and see the above about 'proof'. If you really think this is necessary to buck yourself up in your belief like this, then you need to examine what it is you believe in. How do you propose to explain the annual motion of the Sun if the equator isn't tilted with respect to the ecliptic?
7. Whole universe is centred to the Earth! (Celestial equator is aligned with the Earth's equator). THERE IS NO SANE HELIOCENTRIC EXPLANATION FOR THIS ABSOLUTELY PROVEN SCIENTIFIC FACT!!!
From our point of view it's convenient to treat it as such because the universe
appears to rotate about us; it's an illusion, though. From the point of view from elsewhere, it
appears different. As explained earlier in this post, since the universe is inertial, we can use any point we want as a center of reference, so treating the Earth (or SS Barycenter) as the origin of a coordinate system makes our analysis easier.
8. There is no gravitation as such. Newton invented it with one and only purpose (to prove that the Earth revolves around the Sun)
Newton deduced gravity while trying to understand why things in the heavens and on earth behaved as they do. He found a single force that explained both. Kepler applied Newton's discovery to explain, with great (but not perfect) accuracy, the motions of the planets.
9. http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62199.msg1636031#msg1636031
10. CONCLUSIVE INFERENCE ABOUT THE EQUATION OF TIME ISSUE: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62199.msg1637435#msg1637435
Now, to refresh your memory:
A) http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62199.msg1636172#msg1636172
B) http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62199.msg1637695#msg1637695
C) http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62199.msg1637759#msg1637759
Are you ready for hitting the last nails ( TIDES & NOAH'S ARK issues) in heliocentric coffin?
A) already addressed in this thread.
B) and C) Let's finish this first before moving on. If you'll agree that you haven't
disproved the Heliocentric model, and that people who believe that model is the best explanation for our observations aren't necessarily liars, cheats, idiots, Satan-worshippers, etc. because they of this, that would be a good start on wrapping this up. Note that doing so doesn't mean you agree with that model, only that you haven't disproved it and are willing to show some respect for those who disagree with you on this topic.
edit:
Oh, i owe you conclusion on Crux - Casiopeia issue:
1. It is more than obvious that Casiopeia is a circumpolar constellation!
2. It is more than obvious that Crux is not a circumpolar constellation!
3. It is more than obvious that there is a lot of making up - inventing - adjusting data regarding "exact" numbers of different latitudes or "exact" positions of different stars, so it speaks for itself!!!
1. Is true if you're far enough north.
2. Is most assuredly not true. Even you yourself said it was circumpolar south of 34° S in point 4.
here.
3. About the only "adjustments" to a simple spherical geometric solution for what stars are visible where and when are the observers height above the horizon, which is simply a little more geometry and often isn't necessary, and atmospheric refraction, which can be estimated accurately enough for most situations using a standard model of the atmosphere (1/2° at the horizon from near sea level is a good first-order approximation). For really precise measurements we need a more detailed model of the atmosphere based on current local conditions and
should might also
need to account for oblateness of earth, but details like these are really "down in the noise" in discussions like this; these weren't mentioned before now, because the math is much more difficult and it would look like "mumbo-jumbo" to most reasonably-well educated people, and simply aren't significant
at this level of detail.
Insofar as your whining about needing to use "exact" latitudes and declinations, remember that, based on an error of about 1 1/2° in the declination of a star (pi Cas), you "found" a discrepancy of about 1 1/2° in the expected location of this star from Auckland. This discrepancy vanished when the correct declination was used. The need to use accurate positions if you want accurate answers should be self evident. It's also self evident that for arm-waving they can sometimes be a total nuisance, so I see why you want to dismiss their importance.
You keep going over the same ground again and again. The answers aren't going to change.
[Edit] Clarification in last long paragraph. Fix minor typos.