Get your head around this

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guv

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Get your head around this
« on: September 22, 2014, 04:03:32 AM »
You just have these guys points for this bit of waky wiki.

Distance to the sun

On March 21-22 the sun is directly overhead at the equator and appears 45 degrees above the horizon at 45 degrees north and south latitude. As the angle of sun above the earth at the equator is 90 degrees while it is 45 degrees at 45 degrees north or south latitude, it follows that the angle at the sun between the vertical from the horizon and the line from the observers at 45 degrees north and south must also be 45 degrees. The result is two right angled triangles with legs of equal length. The distance between the equator and the points at 45 degrees north or south is approximately 3,000 miles. Ergo, the sun would be an equal distance above the equator.

Wish I could bend numbers to my will like that, maybe I could get rich.

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 04:18:30 AM »
Well, to be fair, it is the result you should get if the Earth were flat.
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markjo

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 06:30:45 AM »
Unfortunately, that isn't even close to the result that Rowbotham got when he tried a similar experiment in England.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za23.htm#page_99
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macrohard

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 09:19:28 AM »
That experiment (along with the Bedford level experiment) necessarily relies that light travels in a straight line.

Why does the acceleration of light suddenly become a non-factor for such important scientific experiments?

Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 01:11:47 PM »
Unfortunately, that isn't even close to the result that Rowbotham got when he tried a similar experiment in England.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za23.htm#page_99
That was an interesting read. Thanks for the link.

I doubt if the experiment were repeated competently with at least twentieth-century instruments and timekeeping the results would be the same. The reported 3-degree difference in the measured altitude angle is much larger than one would expect for locations only 50 miles apart, and, using his results, places the sun directly overhead in central France. Did anyone on the Northern Mediterranean Coast notice the Sun being north of them at midday that summer? It seems like we would have heard of it from someone if it had been there.

Presuming experimental error in Mr. Rowbotham's measurements and using a more realistic 0.7 degree difference in altitude for these locations (Stellarium predicts 60.0 and 60.7 degrees to the bottom of the sun at culmination from the two cited locations on July 13 this year), and using the Law of Sines we get 3544 and 3569 miles slant-line distances to the bottom of the sun from Brighton and London, respectively. Multiplying 3569 miles by the sine of 60 degrees (altitude angle from London) gives a height of 3091 miles above the presumed-flat earth, and 3569 miles by the cosine of 60 degrees gives a horizontal distance of 1785 miles from london to the point on the flat earth directly under the sun, somewhere near the middle of modern-day Algeria.  Hey, at least it's on the right continent!

I recognize that Stellarium uses Heliocentric and spheroidal-earth models, but, without going into whether or not those are truly correct, it consistently produces very accurate values for the apparent positions of celestial objects.  It should be easy enough to measure this for yourselves if you don't want to rely on a simulation.

And, indeed, as already noted, there is no compensation applied in the experiment as described for the "bendy light" necessary to produce a sunset. The flat-earth model as described is terribly inconsistent with itself. Thoughts, anyone?

So, let's see...  one model produces results that routinely check out against actual observations while another, considering experiments designed and described by its author, is not even consistent with itself.  Which would you choose, and why?
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 01:53:06 PM »
That experiment (along with the Bedford level experiment) necessarily relies that light travels in a straight line.

Why does the acceleration of light suddenly become a non-factor for such important scientific experiments?

Because it can be easily accounted for, which Rowbotham utterly failed to do.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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DonaldC

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 09:57:45 PM »
Light does not accelerate. Photons travel at c always! Now changing from one medium to another they do change speed, say from air to water, but the change is essentially instantaneous. And I am quite certain that is not what you mean.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2014, 05:52:51 AM »
Light does not accelerate. Photons travel at c always! Now changing from one medium to another they do change speed, say from air to water, but the change is essentially instantaneous. And I am quite certain that is not what you mean.



I think you mean that light changes velocity when passing through mediums of different density, but not speed.  You do know the difference between speed and velocity, right?  Also, c is a variable, not a constant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_speed_of_light

Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2014, 06:24:40 AM »
Also, c is a variable, not a constant.
Ultimate LOL :D
"The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its value is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second because the length of the metre is defined from this constant and the international standard for time."

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2014, 06:38:05 AM »
Also, c is a variable, not a constant.
Ultimate LOL :D
"The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its value is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second because the length of the metre is defined from this constant and the international standard for time."

So, you contend that the speed of light is constant and does not change? 

Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2014, 07:07:46 AM »
Honestly I just don't like how you quite often use slightly wrong terminology either consciously, to try to prove your point by "blurring" the explanations, or by accident.

Also, c is a variable, not a constant.
Ultimate LOL :D
"The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its value is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second because the length of the metre is defined from this constant and the international standard for time."
So, you contend that the speed of light is constant and does not change?

That is a completely different matter. The value described universally in physics as c(the speed of light in vacuum) is constant, as it is pretty much one of the "primal" units, used to define other units. The speed of light in different mediums(?) is not the same, but it is consistent for each medium. What other variables did you mean?

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2014, 07:17:43 AM »
Honestly I just don't like how you quite often use slightly wrong terminology either consciously, to try to prove your point by "blurring" the explanations, or by accident.

Also, c is a variable, not a constant.
Ultimate LOL :D
"The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its value is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second because the length of the metre is defined from this constant and the international standard for time."
So, you contend that the speed of light is constant and does not change?

That is a completely different matter. The value described universally in physics as c(the speed of light in vacuum) is constant, as it is pretty much one of the "primal" units, used to define other units. The speed of light in different mediums(?) is not the same, but it is consistent for each medium. What other variables did you mean?

So, is the speed of light a variable or a constant? 

Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2014, 07:42:23 AM »
Honestly I just don't like how you quite often use slightly wrong terminology either consciously, to try to prove your point by "blurring" the explanations, or by accident.

Also, c is a variable, not a constant.
Ultimate LOL :D
"The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its value is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second because the length of the metre is defined from this constant and the international standard for time."
So, you contend that the speed of light is constant and does not change?

That is a completely different matter. The value described universally in physics as c(the speed of light in vacuum) is constant, as it is pretty much one of the "primal" units, used to define other units. The speed of light in different mediums(?) is not the same, but it is consistent for each medium. What other variables did you mean?

So, is the speed of light a variable or a constant?
In general? No. In any specified situation? Yes. It's a rather sh*tty question, like "do cars have four wheels?". I say "yes", you show me a car with 6 wheels. I say "no", you show me three cars with four wheels each. Or "is water wet?". Yes, it is, as long as it is between its melting and boiling point. Is light speed constant? Yes, as long as it doesn't change medium.

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2014, 07:45:58 AM »
Honestly I just don't like how you quite often use slightly wrong terminology either consciously, to try to prove your point by "blurring" the explanations, or by accident.

Also, c is a variable, not a constant.
Ultimate LOL :D
"The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its value is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second because the length of the metre is defined from this constant and the international standard for time."
So, you contend that the speed of light is constant and does not change?

That is a completely different matter. The value described universally in physics as c(the speed of light in vacuum) is constant, as it is pretty much one of the "primal" units, used to define other units. The speed of light in different mediums(?) is not the same, but it is consistent for each medium. What other variables did you mean?

So, is the speed of light a variable or a constant?
In general? No. In any specified situation? Yes. It's a rather sh*tty question, like "do cars have four wheels?". I say "yes", you show me a car with 6 wheels. I say "no", you show me three cars with four wheels each. Or "is water wet?". Yes, it is, as long as it is between its melting and boiling point. Is light speed constant? Yes, as long as it doesn't change medium.

You seem to finally be understanding what a debate is.  You are the one who made the claim that the speed of light is always constant.  I simply proved you wrong. 

Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2014, 07:53:15 AM »
Honestly I just don't like how you quite often use slightly wrong terminology either consciously, to try to prove your point by "blurring" the explanations, or by accident.

Also, c is a variable, not a constant.
Ultimate LOL :D
"The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its value is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second because the length of the metre is defined from this constant and the international standard for time."
So, you contend that the speed of light is constant and does not change?

That is a completely different matter. The value described universally in physics as c(the speed of light in vacuum) is constant, as it is pretty much one of the "primal" units, used to define other units. The speed of light in different mediums(?) is not the same, but it is consistent for each medium. What other variables did you mean?

So, is the speed of light a variable or a constant?
In general? No. In any specified situation? Yes. It's a rather sh*tty question, like "do cars have four wheels?". I say "yes", you show me a car with 6 wheels. I say "no", you show me three cars with four wheels each. Or "is water wet?". Yes, it is, as long as it is between its melting and boiling point. Is light speed constant? Yes, as long as it doesn't change medium.

You seem to finally be understanding what a debate is.  You are the one who made the claim that the speed of light is always constant.  I simply proved you wrong.

Sorry, but it was you who started with wrong statement.

Also, c is a variable, not a constant.

This is wrong. c in physics is not "speed of light". It is a constant with value of speed of light in vacuum. Therefore, while the speed of light is variable, c is constant. This is another case of what I described a bit earlier. You argue with absolute confidence something which flat out wrong, even by definition. I am just not sure whether it was by your misunderstanding of what c means when talking about speed, or if it was deliberate.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 07:57:47 AM by Macpie »

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2014, 07:58:13 AM »
Honestly I just don't like how you quite often use slightly wrong terminology either consciously, to try to prove your point by "blurring" the explanations, or by accident.

Also, c is a variable, not a constant.
Ultimate LOL :D
"The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its value is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second because the length of the metre is defined from this constant and the international standard for time."
So, you contend that the speed of light is constant and does not change?

That is a completely different matter. The value described universally in physics as c(the speed of light in vacuum) is constant, as it is pretty much one of the "primal" units, used to define other units. The speed of light in different mediums(?) is not the same, but it is consistent for each medium. What other variables did you mean?

So, is the speed of light a variable or a constant?
In general? No. In any specified situation? Yes. It's a rather sh*tty question, like "do cars have four wheels?". I say "yes", you show me a car with 6 wheels. I say "no", you show me three cars with four wheels each. Or "is water wet?". Yes, it is, as long as it is between its melting and boiling point. Is light speed constant? Yes, as long as it doesn't change medium.

You seem to finally be understanding what a debate is.  You are the one who made the claim that the speed of light is always constant.  I simply proved you wrong.

Sorry, but it was you who started with wrong statement.

Also, c is a variable, not a constant.

This is wrong. c in physics is not "speed of light". It is a constant with value of speed of light in vacuum. Therefore, while the speed of light is variable, c is constant.

So, are you finally admitting that the speed of light is not a constant? 

Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2014, 08:00:00 AM »
You seem to finally be understanding what a debate is.
If by "debate" you mean "desperately trying to divert the thread away from the OP by making pedantic arguments ",  then I think we are starting to understand what you mean by it.

Now, why don't you address the OP or Alpha2Omega's excellent post?
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2014, 08:04:53 AM »
You seem to finally be understanding what a debate is.
If by "debate" you mean "desperately trying to divert the thread away from the OP by making pedantic arguments ",  then I think we are starting to understand what you mean by it.

Now, why don't you address the OP or Alpha2Omega's excellent post?

Are you now trying to claim that the speed of light is constant? 

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Rama Set

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2014, 08:10:30 AM »
The speed of light is constant.  Every experiment has shown so, no experiment has shown otherwise.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2014, 08:14:11 AM »
Then, why do scientists believe that the speed of light changes, as I have already demonstrated? 

Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2014, 08:18:18 AM »
You seem to finally be understanding what a debate is.
If by "debate" you mean "desperately trying to divert the thread away from the OP by making pedantic arguments ",  then I think we are starting to understand what you mean by it.

Now, why don't you address the OP or Alpha2Omega's excellent post?

Are you now trying to claim that the speed of light is constant?

No. I did not claim it is the same in all cases. It is constant in any given situation, it only differs depending on what material does light travel through. But it doesn't make your statement about c any less wrong. And as Jimmy said, it is not related at all to what was pointed out earlier by Alpha2Omega. And by the way, I apologise for accidentally helping you derail another thread...

EA would either have to act vertically and therefore change the local speed of light, which is not possible, or have to act exactly perpendicular to each ray of light(to conserve speed, but change velocity), that is, to NOT act in vertical direction.

Now what is your take at why is "bendy light" only taken into consideration when it is useful, and omitted in other cases? If its effect is strong enough to cause sunsets and hide stuff behind horizon, it is definitely not trivial enough to be forgotten when doing any calculations.

Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2014, 09:52:09 AM »
You seem to finally be understanding what a debate is.
If by "debate" you mean "desperately trying to divert the thread away from the OP by making pedantic arguments ",  then I think we are starting to understand what you mean by it.

Now, why don't you address the OP or Alpha2Omega's excellent post?

Are you now trying to claim that the speed of light is constant?
Where did I mention the speed of light?  You are all over the place today.  I'll repeat:

Now, why don't you address the OP or Alpha2Omega's excellent post?
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ausGeoff

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2014, 06:25:12 PM »
Then, why do scientists believe that the speed of light changes, as I have already demonstrated?

Are you claiming that you've personally "demonstrated" using your own methodology that the speed of light is a variable, or are you simply parroting what you've heard other people say jroa?  Flat earthers are constantly complaining that round earthers haven't done various experiments themselves, and thus their claims are worthless as an argument because they're just quoting third parties.

So... are you quoting an accredited scientific source, or have you done the research yourself?  And if the former, why is it that you're more than happy to accept at face value some scientific theories but reject outright others?  How exactly do you differentiate?


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markjo

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2014, 06:46:24 PM »
Then, why do scientists believe that the speed of light changes, as I have already demonstrated?

Are you claiming that you've personally "demonstrated" using your own methodology that the speed of light is a variable, or are you simply parroting what you've heard other people say jroa?  Flat earthers are constantly complaining that round earthers haven't done various experiments themselves, and thus their claims are worthless as an argument because they're just quoting third parties.

So... are you quoting an accredited scientific source, or have you done the research yourself?  And if the former, why is it that you're more than happy to accept at face value some scientific theories but reject outright others?  How exactly do you differentiate?
Actually, he cited a Wikipedia article.  For all we know, he could have written or modified that article himself.
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Rama Set

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2014, 08:14:01 PM »
Then, why do scientists believe that the speed of light changes, as I have already demonstrated?
From your source... The first sentence:
Variable speed of light (VSL) is a hypothesis that states that the speed of light, usually denoted by c, may be a function of space and time.
For your edification:
hy·poth·e·sis
noun \hī-ˈpä-thə-səs\

: an idea or theory that is not proven but that leads to further study or discussion

You may have demonstrated that some scientists believe that c varies, but there is no experimental evidence to support it and until there is, it literally does not matter what scientists think.  The evidence is what matters.

Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2014, 06:38:34 AM »
You may have demonstrated that some scientists believe that c varies, but there is no experimental evidence to support it and until there is, it literally does not matter what scientists think.  The evidence is what matters.

Sort of like how many scientists have many different theories about gravity? 

Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2014, 06:51:15 AM »
You may have demonstrated that some scientists believe that c varies, but there is no experimental evidence to support it and until there is, it literally does not matter what scientists think.  The evidence is what matters.

Sort of like how many scientists have many different theories about gravity?
Sort of like how there can be many different theories about why the puppy died, which doesn't change the fact that the puppy is DEAD.

And, regarding the question about you being very picky as to why use "bendy light":
Quote
Silence will fall, when the question is asked.

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2014, 08:27:40 AM »
You may have demonstrated that some scientists believe that c varies, but there is no experimental evidence to support it and until there is, it literally does not matter what scientists think.  The evidence is what matters.

Sort of like how many scientists have many different theories about gravity?

Well not really.  There is currently one encompassing theory of gravity, GR, which works on all scales except the quantum.  The Newtonian theory is still applicable on most scales, and can be easily derived from GR, so it is not really a different theory than GR, just a simplification.

There are many hypotheses for quantum gravity, but they are just hypotheses.  And there is that one really, really, really important thing that gravity has and VSL does not...

EVIDENCE!
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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DonaldC

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2014, 10:09:12 PM »
Light does not accelerate. Photons travel at c always! Now changing from one medium to another they do change speed, say from air to water, but the change is essentially instantaneous. And I am quite certain that is not what you mean.



I think you mean that light changes velocity when passing through mediums of different density, but not speed.  You do know the difference between speed and velocity, right?  Also, c is a variable, not a constant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_speed_of_light

I do know the difference between speed and velocity. The first is a scalar whereas the latter a vector. And when changing from one medium to another speed changes, ergo changing the velocity vector (think length of the vector) and also the direction of the velocity changes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index. 
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ausGeoff

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Re: Get your head around this
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2014, 11:18:23 AM »
I note again that jroa—as he often does—has chosen to avoid answering my simple question:

Quote
Are you claiming that you've personally "demonstrated" using your own methodology that the speed of light is a variable, or are you simply parroting what you've heard other people say jroa?

He repeatedly refutes round earthers simply quoting scientific research as evidence for their claims, but in this instance is apparently more than happy to do so in support of his own argument.

It seems that when it comes to citing scientific references, jroa is somewhat selective;  those of the round earthers are invariably erroneous, while those of the flat earthers are unequivocally correct.  Which is certainly convenient LOL.