Confirming the existence of God

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on September 23, 2014, 03:29:35 PM

The biggest problem with proving/falsifying god is the claim is specifically designed to be unfalsifiable.  God was once though to be living in a cave, that only the shaman could venture into and talk to, it was a method of control, as the leaders would divulge god's bidding to their followers, usually offerings and riches.  Eventually one of the followers ventured into the forbidden cave, and found nothing.  Then God was put on top of a mountain, then up in the sky, and eventually all around us, but invisible and undetectable except by those he chooses

Yea, but the thing is, you've got your order mixed up. Theism existed before any sort of leadership system, and God was believed to be everywhere in nature at once, and then later on in history, priests and whatnot tried to say that God was in such-and-such temple and only they could talk to him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

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I've heard this argument many times. It's stupid. It's like asking why microbiologists create and study bacteria cultures. To gather information. Out of pure interest.

Microbiologists don't get all upset when their bacteria cultures don't worship them.

Quote from: The Ellimist on September 23, 2014, 06:27:07 PM

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on September 23, 2014, 03:29:35 PM

The biggest problem with proving/falsifying god is the claim is specifically designed to be unfalsifiable.  God was once though to be living in a cave, that only the shaman could venture into and talk to, it was a method of control, as the leaders would divulge god's bidding to their followers, usually offerings and riches.  Eventually one of the followers ventured into the forbidden cave, and found nothing.  Then God was put on top of a mountain, then up in the sky, and eventually all around us, but invisible and undetectable except by those he chooses

Yea, but the thing is, you've got your order mixed up. Theism existed before any sort of leadership system, and God was believed to be everywhere in nature at once, and then later on in history, priests and whatnot tried to say that God was in such-and-such temple and only they could talk to him.

If you cannot see God everywhere, you will never find him anywhere.

That is more or less what Jesus taught.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on September 24, 2014, 05:23:33 AM

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I've heard this argument many times. It's stupid. It's like asking why microbiologists create and study bacteria cultures. To gather information. Out of pure interest.

Microbiologists don't get all upset when their bacteria cultures don't worship them.

Neither does God.

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.  You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,  but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Quote from: The Ellimist on September 24, 2014, 02:46:15 PM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on September 24, 2014, 05:23:33 AM

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I've heard this argument many times. It's stupid. It's like asking why microbiologists create and study bacteria cultures. To gather information. Out of pure interest.

Microbiologists don't get all upset when their bacteria cultures don't worship them.

Neither does God.

Really?  Not in the book I read. 

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You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.  You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,  but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

How would one go about this? (All religion aside)

I can't say I'm fond of your literature choices. It seems you forgot about the original post.

I think the ability to even think about if there is a possibility of God means yeah there is because why would we ever need to think about that from an evolutionary perspective? I mean if evolution always led to higher life-forms I think it could be said, "Why didn't we just evolve to live forever?" Why do we need all this repeatedly dying over and over again bullcrap? Why would we even need to think in the first place or feel anything at all? What makes us more alive then a rock or air? What even is life? How did matter and energy even come to the universe in the first place if there was a big bang? If space is a vacuum what is sucking? Where is it sucking? And how is it sucking?

If you are saying what is the supreme being, wouldn't that by definition be that which is the entire universe because you can't be more supreme then everything combined, well unless you created that which is from nothing...

...I suppose there is no way to believe in God without faith, because faith is believing in what you cannot see. Just because we can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but we still have to believe that our past memories are true or else our whole life just degrades into pure lunacy.

Why didn't we just evolve to live forever?" Why do we need all this repeatedly dying over and over again bullcrap?

Why would we even need to think in the first place or feel anything at all?

What makes us more alive then a rock or air?

What even is life?

If space is a vacuum what is sucking? Where is it sucking? And how is it sucking?

Quote from: The Ellimist on September 24, 2014, 07:27:16 PM

I can't say I'm fond of your literature choices. It seems you forgot about the original post.

What, the one where you didn't specify which god you are referring to?

Most religions involve a god that requires worship and/or sacrifice.

How would one go about this? (All religion aside)

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Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

sorry a bit off topic, but this quote is one of my favorites.

I also like:

Matthew 6:5-6:  And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.  But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on September 24, 2014, 05:23:33 AM

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I've heard this argument many times. It's stupid. It's like asking why microbiologists create and study bacteria cultures. To gather information. Out of pure interest.

Microbiologists don't get all upset when their bacteria cultures don't worship them.

Neither does God.

Quote from: The Ellimist on September 24, 2014, 02:46:15 PM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on September 24, 2014, 05:23:33 AM

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I've heard this argument many times. It's stupid. It's like asking why microbiologists create and study bacteria cultures. To gather information. Out of pure interest.

Microbiologists don't get all upset when their bacteria cultures don't worship them.

Neither does God.

God sure does. Payback is a bitch.

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Regards
DL

How would one go about this? (All religion aside)

I think the ability to even think about if there is a possibility of God means yeah there is because why would we ever need to think about that from an evolutionary perspective? I mean if evolution always led to higher life-forms I think it could be said, "Why didn't we just evolve to live forever?" Why do we need all this repeatedly dying over and over again bullcrap? Why would we even need to think in the first place or feel anything at all? What makes us more alive then a rock or air? What even is life? How did matter and energy even come to the universe in the first place if there was a big bang? If space is a vacuum what is sucking? Where is it sucking? And how is it sucking?

If you are saying what is the supreme being, wouldn't that by definition be that which is the entire universe because you can't be more supreme then everything combined, well unless you created that which is from nothing...

...I suppose there is no way to believe in God without faith, because faith is believing in what you cannot see. Just because we can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but we still have to believe that our past memories are true or else our whole life just degrades into pure lunacy.

MISCONCEPTION: Evolution results in progress; organisms are always getting better through evolution.

CORRECTION: One important mechanism of evolution, natural selection, does result in the evolution of improved abilities to survive and reproduce; however, this does not mean that evolution is progressive — for several reasons. First, as described in a misconception below (link to "Natural selection produces organisms perfectly suited to their environments"), natural selection does not produce organisms perfectly suited to their environments. It often allows the survival of individuals with a range of traits — individuals that are "good enough" to survive. Hence, evolutionary change is not always necessary for species to persist. Many taxa (like some mosses, fungi, sharks, opossums, and crayfish) have changed little physically over great expanses of time. Second, there are other mechanisms of evolution that don't cause adaptive change. Mutation, migration, and genetic drift may cause populations to evolve in ways that are actually harmful overall or make them less suitable for their environments. For example, the Afrikaner population of South Africa has an unusually high frequency of the gene responsible for Huntington's disease because the gene version drifted to high frequency as the population grew from a small starting population. Finally, the whole idea of "progress" doesn't make sense when it comes to evolution. Climates change, rivers shift course, new competitors invade — and an organism with traits that are beneficial in one situation may be poorly equipped for survival when the environment changes. And even if we focus on a single environment and habitat, the idea of how to measure "progress" is skewed by the perspective of the observer. From a plant's perspective, the best measure of progress might be photosynthetic ability; from a spider's it might be the efficiency of a venom delivery system; from a human's, cognitive ability. It is tempting to see evolution as a grand progressive ladder with Homo sapiens emerging at the top. But evolution produces a tree, not a ladder — and we are just one of many twigs on the tree.

Re the topic - If there is a god somewhere, it would depend on the properties of the god whether or not it could be detected. If this being was omnipotent it could keep us from detecting it. If it isn't omnipotent, then it's not really a god, although there could be a being so advanced that it would seem like a god.

Maybe you should explain your criteria for what constitutes a god, then. There's a possibility that there are creatures more advanced than humans somewhere in the universe... how much more advanced than us would they need to be to be gods to us?

Oh, sorry I just thought of this. Bacteria and ants are potent enough to control our universe, too.

We rely on bacteria, and we are killed by bacteria. We are not the gods of bacteria! If all humans died, there would still be bacteria. If all bacteria died, we wouldn't survive. We have a symbiotic relationship with them, but they don't need us.

We don't control the ants' universe. Being able to kill a few of them, isn't the same thing. The ants go marching on. They can kill us, we can kill them.

Maybe someday quantum physics will be able to determine what is in other dimensions.

Maybe someday quantum physics will be able to determine what is in other dimensions.