Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?

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Yendor

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Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« on: July 31, 2014, 01:50:05 PM »
I spent the best part of this morning reading the whole thread that was started by ‘Jer9999’ on March 11, 2014 at 07:19:17 PM. His or her question was: “Does Flying Around the World in 1 Direction Prove the Earth is Round?”
Basically most of the thread was about whether you can fly or go around the earth without turning left or right. The FE people say no unless you are at the equator or the ‘great circle’. You have to turn the same way you would have to turn on a flat earth to go from one side to the other. The RE people said the opposite, you can in fact go around the earth, or say a large ball, without turning left or right, simply go straight. I was perplexed. I just did not know what to think. The people on both sides of the argument, and it was an argument, seemed very smart and knew what they were talking about. I could see the logic from both views. So I decided to try an experiment.
1)   I took an old ball I had and punched a dowel through it so it was pretty much even through and through. Sort of what an axle and wheel would be.
2)   I drew a circle all the way around the ball equal distance from the dowel on one end. Just say 1 inch down. It looked like a longitude line around an earth globe.
3)   I drew a horizontal line on the wall at eye level and placed a vertical line near half way. It looked like a cross hair.
4)   I positioned, at eye level, the line I had drawn on the ball even with the horizontal line on the wall. I turned the ball until the line on the ball lined up with the vertical line on the wall. Then I aimed the edge of the line on the ball with the vertical line on the wall.

5)   The view was like what you would see if you looked out of your car’s windshield at the horizon and saw the road in front of you sink off on the horizon. Unlike the earth, you can see the curvature of the ball evenly lined up with the horizontal line on the wall.

6)   The dowel through the ball ended up being near a 45 degree angle to the horizontal line on the wall.

I began turning the dowel, keeping it at the same 45 degree angle. As I turned the dowel I could see that the line on the ball stayed lined up with the crosshair on the wall. I did not have to turn left or right to get it to stay lined up, I just rotated the dowel. This little experiment, although very crude, seems to show me that maybe the RE people won this point. If I’m wrong, please show me.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

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legion

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2014, 02:41:03 PM »
I admire your desire to prove the answer by experiment. However, a couple of observations (from your list):

3) Drawing a line on the wall gives you a fixed point. There are no fixed points (or datum) in the earths alleged travel through the blackness of space.

5) The horizon is always at eye level. The road does not sink on the horizon.

Good work though!
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th3rm0m3t3r0

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2014, 04:19:05 PM »
I spent the best part of this morning reading the whole thread that was started by ‘Jer9999’ on March 11, 2014 at 07:19:17 PM. His or her question was: “Does Flying Around the World in 1 Direction Prove the Earth is Round?”
Basically most of the thread was about whether you can fly or go around the earth without turning left or right. The FE people say no unless you are at the equator or the ‘great circle’. You have to turn the same way you would have to turn on a flat earth to go from one side to the other. The RE people said the opposite, you can in fact go around the earth, or say a large ball, without turning left or right, simply go straight. I was perplexed. I just did not know what to think. The people on both sides of the argument, and it was an argument, seemed very smart and knew what they were talking about. I could see the logic from both views. So I decided to try an experiment.
1)   I took an old ball I had and punched a dowel through it so it was pretty much even through and through. Sort of what an axle and wheel would be.
2)   I drew a circle all the way around the ball equal distance from the dowel on one end. Just say 1 inch down. It looked like a longitude line around an earth globe.
3)   I drew a horizontal line on the wall at eye level and placed a vertical line near half way. It looked like a cross hair.
4)   I positioned, at eye level, the line I had drawn on the ball even with the horizontal line on the wall. I turned the ball until the line on the ball lined up with the vertical line on the wall. Then I aimed the edge of the line on the ball with the vertical line on the wall.

5)   The view was like what you would see if you looked out of your car’s windshield at the horizon and saw the road in front of you sink off on the horizon. Unlike the earth, you can see the curvature of the ball evenly lined up with the horizontal line on the wall.

6)   The dowel through the ball ended up being near a 45 degree angle to the horizontal line on the wall.

I began turning the dowel, keeping it at the same 45 degree angle. As I turned the dowel I could see that the line on the ball stayed lined up with the crosshair on the wall. I did not have to turn left or right to get it to stay lined up, I just rotated the dowel. This little experiment, although very crude, seems to show me that maybe the RE people won this point. If I’m wrong, please show me.
The problem here is that you're thinking about "left" and "right" instead of "west" and "east".
You don't fly around the world by going left or right.
On a flat Earth, to follow "west" or "east" would mean you'd have to be constantly (albeit very slightly) turning to travel around the north pole.
Dare I say, turning slightly enough that it goes unnoticed?
I mean, if you're following a compass traveling west the entire time, "straight" is define as staying on course- which would be continuing your westbound trajectory.


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Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

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rottingroom

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2014, 04:22:22 PM »
I spent the best part of this morning reading the whole thread that was started by ‘Jer9999’ on March 11, 2014 at 07:19:17 PM. His or her question was: “Does Flying Around the World in 1 Direction Prove the Earth is Round?”
Basically most of the thread was about whether you can fly or go around the earth without turning left or right. The FE people say no unless you are at the equator or the ‘great circle’. You have to turn the same way you would have to turn on a flat earth to go from one side to the other. The RE people said the opposite, you can in fact go around the earth, or say a large ball, without turning left or right, simply go straight. I was perplexed. I just did not know what to think. The people on both sides of the argument, and it was an argument, seemed very smart and knew what they were talking about. I could see the logic from both views. So I decided to try an experiment.
1)   I took an old ball I had and punched a dowel through it so it was pretty much even through and through. Sort of what an axle and wheel would be.
2)   I drew a circle all the way around the ball equal distance from the dowel on one end. Just say 1 inch down. It looked like a longitude line around an earth globe.
3)   I drew a horizontal line on the wall at eye level and placed a vertical line near half way. It looked like a cross hair.
4)   I positioned, at eye level, the line I had drawn on the ball even with the horizontal line on the wall. I turned the ball until the line on the ball lined up with the vertical line on the wall. Then I aimed the edge of the line on the ball with the vertical line on the wall.

5)   The view was like what you would see if you looked out of your car’s windshield at the horizon and saw the road in front of you sink off on the horizon. Unlike the earth, you can see the curvature of the ball evenly lined up with the horizontal line on the wall.

6)   The dowel through the ball ended up being near a 45 degree angle to the horizontal line on the wall.

I began turning the dowel, keeping it at the same 45 degree angle. As I turned the dowel I could see that the line on the ball stayed lined up with the crosshair on the wall. I did not have to turn left or right to get it to stay lined up, I just rotated the dowel. This little experiment, although very crude, seems to show me that maybe the RE people won this point. If I’m wrong, please show me.
The problem here is that you're thinking about "left" and "right" instead of "west" and "east".
You don't fly around the world by going left or right.
On a flat Earth, to follow "west" or "east" would mean you'd have to be constantly (albeit very slightly) turning to travel around the north pole.
Dare I say, turning slightly enough that it goes unnoticed?
I mean, if you're following a compass traveling west the entire time, "straight" is define as staying on course- which would be continuing your westbound trajectory.

Except that ships and planes use a great circle which literally means to not turn, at all.

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th3rm0m3t3r0

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2014, 04:36:51 PM »
I spent the best part of this morning reading the whole thread that was started by ‘Jer9999’ on March 11, 2014 at 07:19:17 PM. His or her question was: “Does Flying Around the World in 1 Direction Prove the Earth is Round?”
Basically most of the thread was about whether you can fly or go around the earth without turning left or right. The FE people say no unless you are at the equator or the ‘great circle’. You have to turn the same way you would have to turn on a flat earth to go from one side to the other. The RE people said the opposite, you can in fact go around the earth, or say a large ball, without turning left or right, simply go straight. I was perplexed. I just did not know what to think. The people on both sides of the argument, and it was an argument, seemed very smart and knew what they were talking about. I could see the logic from both views. So I decided to try an experiment.
1)   I took an old ball I had and punched a dowel through it so it was pretty much even through and through. Sort of what an axle and wheel would be.
2)   I drew a circle all the way around the ball equal distance from the dowel on one end. Just say 1 inch down. It looked like a longitude line around an earth globe.
3)   I drew a horizontal line on the wall at eye level and placed a vertical line near half way. It looked like a cross hair.
4)   I positioned, at eye level, the line I had drawn on the ball even with the horizontal line on the wall. I turned the ball until the line on the ball lined up with the vertical line on the wall. Then I aimed the edge of the line on the ball with the vertical line on the wall.

5)   The view was like what you would see if you looked out of your car’s windshield at the horizon and saw the road in front of you sink off on the horizon. Unlike the earth, you can see the curvature of the ball evenly lined up with the horizontal line on the wall.

6)   The dowel through the ball ended up being near a 45 degree angle to the horizontal line on the wall.

I began turning the dowel, keeping it at the same 45 degree angle. As I turned the dowel I could see that the line on the ball stayed lined up with the crosshair on the wall. I did not have to turn left or right to get it to stay lined up, I just rotated the dowel. This little experiment, although very crude, seems to show me that maybe the RE people won this point. If I’m wrong, please show me.
The problem here is that you're thinking about "left" and "right" instead of "west" and "east".
You don't fly around the world by going left or right.
On a flat Earth, to follow "west" or "east" would mean you'd have to be constantly (albeit very slightly) turning to travel around the north pole.
Dare I say, turning slightly enough that it goes unnoticed?
I mean, if you're following a compass traveling west the entire time, "straight" is define as staying on course- which would be continuing your westbound trajectory.

Except that ships and planes use a great circle which literally means to not turn, at all.
"Not turn at all" means "stay on course", which means "keep going west/east".


I don't profess to be correct.
Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

?

rottingroom

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2014, 04:56:58 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.

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th3rm0m3t3r0

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2014, 05:02:49 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.
Have you ever circumnavigated in a plane equipped with a gyroscope, recording every movement?


I don't profess to be correct.
Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

?

rottingroom

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2014, 05:06:04 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.
Have you ever circumnavigated in a plane equipped with a gyroscope, recording every movement?

No, but I've sailed the oceans and recorded our ships heading every hour for months on end. A heading which was derived from a gyroscope.

In any case I'll ask again. Which line of latitude can you go directly east or west on and not turn? I need you to attempt answering that.

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th3rm0m3t3r0

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2014, 05:19:36 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.
Have you ever circumnavigated in a plane equipped with a gyroscope, recording every movement?

No, but I've sailed the oceans and recorded our ships heading every hour for months on end. A heading which was derived from a gyroscope.

In any case I'll ask again. Which line of latitude can you go directly east or west on and not turn? I need you to attempt answering that.
You have to turn on all of them.


I don't profess to be correct.
Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

?

rottingroom

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  • Around the world.
Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2014, 05:22:05 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.
Have you ever circumnavigated in a plane equipped with a gyroscope, recording every movement?

No, but I've sailed the oceans and recorded our ships heading every hour for months on end. A heading which was derived from a gyroscope.

In any case I'll ask again. Which line of latitude can you go directly east or west on and not turn? I need you to attempt answering that.
You have to turn on all of them.

It's so hard to tell with you. Whether you are playing dumb or if you are actually getting dumber. The RE therm would have been able to answer this question correctly.

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th3rm0m3t3r0

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2014, 05:29:02 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.
Have you ever circumnavigated in a plane equipped with a gyroscope, recording every movement?

No, but I've sailed the oceans and recorded our ships heading every hour for months on end. A heading which was derived from a gyroscope.

In any case I'll ask again. Which line of latitude can you go directly east or west on and not turn? I need you to attempt answering that.
You have to turn on all of them.

It's so hard to tell with you. Whether you are playing dumb or if you are actually getting dumber. The RE therm would have been able to answer this question correctly.
You want me to say "the equator", but that's false.


I don't profess to be correct.
Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

?

rottingroom

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2014, 05:30:54 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.
Have you ever circumnavigated in a plane equipped with a gyroscope, recording every movement?

No, but I've sailed the oceans and recorded our ships heading every hour for months on end. A heading which was derived from a gyroscope.

In any case I'll ask again. Which line of latitude can you go directly east or west on and not turn? I need you to attempt answering that.
You have to turn on all of them.

It's so hard to tell with you. Whether you are playing dumb or if you are actually getting dumber. The RE therm would have been able to answer this question correctly.
You want me to say "the equator", but that's false.

Oh good. You do get it. That's all I need to know. I don't really care about the trolling. Just wanted to make sure there is still a brain up there.

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th3rm0m3t3r0

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2014, 05:32:28 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.
Have you ever circumnavigated in a plane equipped with a gyroscope, recording every movement?

No, but I've sailed the oceans and recorded our ships heading every hour for months on end. A heading which was derived from a gyroscope.

In any case I'll ask again. Which line of latitude can you go directly east or west on and not turn? I need you to attempt answering that.
You have to turn on all of them.

It's so hard to tell with you. Whether you are playing dumb or if you are actually getting dumber. The RE therm would have been able to answer this question correctly.
You want me to say "the equator", but that's false.

Oh good. You do get it. That's all I need to know. I don't really care about the trolling. Just wanted to make sure there is still a brain up there.
Was there any point of this post besides expressing needless superiority and arrogance?


I don't profess to be correct.
Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

?

rottingroom

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  • Around the world.
Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2014, 05:35:37 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.
Have you ever circumnavigated in a plane equipped with a gyroscope, recording every movement?

No, but I've sailed the oceans and recorded our ships heading every hour for months on end. A heading which was derived from a gyroscope.

In any case I'll ask again. Which line of latitude can you go directly east or west on and not turn? I need you to attempt answering that.
You have to turn on all of them.

It's so hard to tell with you. Whether you are playing dumb or if you are actually getting dumber. The RE therm would have been able to answer this question correctly.
You want me to say "the equator", but that's false.

Oh good. You do get it. That's all I need to know. I don't really care about the trolling. Just wanted to make sure there is still a brain up there.
Was there any point of this post besides expressing needless superiority and arrogance?

You were pretending not to get it. I needed to make sure that it was a charade.

*

th3rm0m3t3r0

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2014, 05:41:56 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.
Have you ever circumnavigated in a plane equipped with a gyroscope, recording every movement?

No, but I've sailed the oceans and recorded our ships heading every hour for months on end. A heading which was derived from a gyroscope.

In any case I'll ask again. Which line of latitude can you go directly east or west on and not turn? I need you to attempt answering that.
You have to turn on all of them.

It's so hard to tell with you. Whether you are playing dumb or if you are actually getting dumber. The RE therm would have been able to answer this question correctly.
You want me to say "the equator", but that's false.

Oh good. You do get it. That's all I need to know. I don't really care about the trolling. Just wanted to make sure there is still a brain up there.
Was there any point of this post besides expressing needless superiority and arrogance?

You were pretending not to get it. I needed to make sure that it was a charade.
I wasn't pretending not to understand something that isn't true.
It's just not true.


I don't profess to be correct.
Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

?

rottingroom

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  • Around the world.
Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2014, 05:46:11 PM »
Well no, it doesn't, east or west does mean turning except for at ____?

Answer that.

I think you know this therm.
Have you ever circumnavigated in a plane equipped with a gyroscope, recording every movement?

No, but I've sailed the oceans and recorded our ships heading every hour for months on end. A heading which was derived from a gyroscope.

In any case I'll ask again. Which line of latitude can you go directly east or west on and not turn? I need you to attempt answering that.
You have to turn on all of them.

It's so hard to tell with you. Whether you are playing dumb or if you are actually getting dumber. The RE therm would have been able to answer this question correctly.
You want me to say "the equator", but that's false.

Oh good. You do get it. That's all I need to know. I don't really care about the trolling. Just wanted to make sure there is still a brain up there.
Was there any point of this post besides expressing needless superiority and arrogance?

You were pretending not to get it. I needed to make sure that it was a charade.
I wasn't pretending not to understand something that isn't true.
It's just not true.

So the shortest distance from San Diego to Japan is directly west? I've done this voyage about 5 times.

Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2014, 08:08:27 PM »
I was perplexed. I just did not know what to think. The people on both sides of the argument, and it was an argument, seemed very smart and knew what they were talking about. I could see the logic from both views.
So yeah, circumnavigating a sphere while not turning left or right is possible.  If one wants to maintain an east or west heading, the equator must be followed.  If one wanted to maintain a north to south heading, traveling over the poles would be necessary. 

Or one could pick a random spot and direction and travel in a straight line, but your compass heading would constantly change.

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ausGeoff

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2014, 02:39:59 AM »
Quick answer.  Yes.  You can go around the earth without turning "left" or "right".

You can start at any point on its surface, and assuming you're following a great circle route, you never deviate from travelling straight ahead—and end up back where you started.


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Yendor

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2014, 06:36:51 AM »
"Quick answer.  Yes.  You can go around the earth without turning "left" or "right".

You can start at any point on its surface, and assuming you're following a great circle route, you never deviate from travelling straight ahead—and end up back where you started."


What I observed seems correct. You can go around a sphere without turning left or right and end up at the same spot as you started.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

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rottingroom

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2014, 06:41:39 AM »
"Quick answer.  Yes.  You can go around the earth without turning "left" or "right".

You can start at any point on its surface, and assuming you're following a great circle route, you never deviate from travelling straight ahead—and end up back where you started."


What I observed seems correct. You can go around a sphere without turning left or right and end up at the same spot as you started.

That's conceptually obvious. I mean, good on you for making an experiment to confirm that but I'm not sure what else you could have expected given the definition of a sphere.

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Pongo

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2014, 02:49:55 PM »
Quick answer.  Yes.  You can go around the earth without turning "left" or "right".

You can start at any point on its surface, and assuming you're following a great circle route, you never deviate from travelling straight ahead—and end up back where you started.

But you can't be going in the same cardinal direction the entire time. According to the round-earth model that is.

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rottingroom

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2014, 03:13:11 PM »
Quick answer.  Yes.  You can go around the earth without turning "left" or "right".

You can start at any point on its surface, and assuming you're following a great circle route, you never deviate from travelling straight ahead—and end up back where you started.

But you can't be going in the same cardinal direction the entire time. According to the round-earth model that is.

Did someone say you could? Is there even a flat earth model that says you can.




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markjo

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2014, 07:38:45 PM »
Quick answer.  Yes.  You can go around the earth without turning "left" or "right".

You can start at any point on its surface, and assuming you're following a great circle route, you never deviate from travelling straight ahead—and end up back where you started.

But you can't be going in the same cardinal direction the entire time. According to the round-earth model that is.
Unless you're going north/south or east/west along the equator, of course.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2014, 09:43:06 PM »
How can you go north/south along the equator? ???

Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2014, 03:25:05 AM »
How can you go north/south along the equator? ???

Maybe this will make it more clear for you...

Unless you're going <north/south> or <east/west along the equator>

By the way, how can it be so difficult to understand "going straight"? It doesn't have to do anything with north/south etc, it simply means picking any direction like drawing an arrow on the ground and following it without turning. Like walking along a laser beam you pointed somewhere at the beginning or something, I hope you get the general idea now.

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ausGeoff

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Re: Can you go around the earth without turning left or right?
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2014, 04:24:05 AM »
Quick answer.  Yes.  You can go around the earth without turning "left" or "right".

You can start at any point on its surface, and assuming you're following a great circle route, you never deviate from travelling straight ahead—and end up back where you started.

But you can't be going in the same cardinal direction the entire time. According to the round-earth model that is.

Of course you can.  Any polar circumnavigation will take you along a north-south cardinal direction the entire time.  But then a cardinal direction has nothing per se to do with circumnavigating the planet—what's your point?