Oh dear...

No they fall at precisely the same rate actually… in a perfect vacuum.

In a perfect vacuum, yes. We cannot produce that on Earth, so there will be a slight difference in riction acting on different objects.

Now roll the same penny off the edge of a ramp in a vacuum and see what happens.
This isn't what happened in the case of RB Stratos though.

I'm not sure what you are getting at, here.

He didn't start spinning until there was significant air pressure to cause him to spin while his body was not symmetrical.
This would have continued had he not made the effort to stabilise himself.

A spin is caused by uneven air pressure on an object. If there was enough air pressure to make him spin like we were shown in the crappy footage, there was enough air pressure to rip his body to bits...no doubt about it at that speed they said he was going at.

You can't have it both ways.

He actually did go that speed. There's undisputable video evidence.

Denying it is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand.

He actually did go that speed. There's undisputable video evidence.

Denying it is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand.

Ok, show me the video evidence.

The video has already been posted on this forum multiple times.

Please show proof he isn't traveling at the speed the video says he is.

Then please show proof he was really as high as it says.

Then show proof the entire video is fake.

You're making the claims, it's on you to provide proof.

The video has already been posted on this forum multiple times.

Can you find it for me and post it, please.

You can't have it both ways.

You can if air density changes with altitude, which you may not accept, but is what's being asserted.

Your own example demonstrates that terminal velocity of the same object changes with air pressure (your feather example).
Only you have just mentioned one extreme and the other... the atmosphere we experience, and a vacuum.

If the object (Human or not) is falling a distance from Earth great enough that the pressure changes so greatly from one
extreme to the other in the same fall, of course there is going to be variation in terminal velocity, and the ability for a Human
to utilise his own body to control decent is going to become more effective with the increase in air density.

I don't know the thoughts on changes in air pressure for someone who doesn't believe in "outer space",
but any citizen with the cash to spare can stick a GPS on a weather balloon full of helium and track it until it pops,
and go get it when it hits the ground. The increasing difference in pressure in & outside the balloon causes it to expand
gradually until it pops. The GPS thing... well no matter your thoughts on how that works it still works.

Can you find it for me and post it, please.

No. But you can click back to page 1 of this thread and use the link the OP put up. Or find another thread that has the video posted.

You're welcome.

"A spin is caused by uneven air pressure on an object. If there was enough air pressure to make him spin like we were shown in the crappy footage, there was enough air pressure to rip his body to bits...no doubt about it at that speed they said he was going at."

The amount of air pressure it takes to make him spin is very low compared to the air pressure it takes to rip him apart.
I don't understand why you think they are even close.

Please show proof he isn't traveling at the speed the video says he is.

Then please show proof he was really as high as it says.

Then show proof the entire video is fake.

You're making the claims, it's on you to provide proof.

I can't directly prove anything. All I can do is appeal to people's logic.
I can no more directly prove he didn't do it, no more than you can directly prove he did.

Let's look at it logically, though.

Your proof is silly video evidence by unconditional belief. It's basically like saying, " oh, I saw a kid flying and levitating with no means of holding him up, it's on video so it's true."

My logic is by taking the video apart by showing inconsistencies and using common sense to make people aware of how being up that height would kill any human, let alone falling from it.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 22, 2014, 03:32:01 AM

You can't have it both ways.

You can if air density changes with altitude, which you may not accept, but is what's being asserted.

Your own example demonstrates that terminal velocity of the same object changes with air pressure (your feather example).
Only you have just mentioned one extreme and the other... the atmosphere we experience, and a vacuum.

If the object (Human or not) is falling a distance from Earth great enough that the pressure changes so greatly from one
extreme to the other in the same fall, of course there is going to be variation in terminal velocity, and the ability for a Human
to utilise his own body to control decent is going to become more effective with the increase in air density.

I don't know the thoughts on changes in air pressure for someone who doesn't believe in "outer space",
but any citizen with the cash to spare can stick a GPS on a weather balloon full of helium and track it until it pops,
and go get it when it hits the ground. The increasing difference in pressure in & outside the balloon causes it to expand
gradually until it pops. The GPS thing... well no matter your thoughts on how that works it still works.

Let's talk about these increasing pressure. You tell me, without using google, what you think happens to a helium balloon from launch to stopping before popping at whatever height it reaches.

What I want to know is: the reason why a helium balloon rises.
Why does it pop at a certain height?

We can go on from this and see where it will become evident to anyone why it's impossible for Baumgartner to have done that jump.

Quote

Can you find it for me and post it, please.

No. But you can click back to page 1 of this thread and use the link the OP put up. Or find another thread that has the video posted.

You're welcome.

How about putting the video up for me. What's wrong?

" using common sense to make people aware of how being up that height would kill any human, let alone falling from it."

You keep saying that. You agree the air is less dense as you go up. You agree that the air becomes more dense as you go down....

Why do you think the air pressure would kill him?

Moving at the same velocity through the atmosphere as you would in a vacuum (or near vacuum)
could perhaps present a little problem for a Human, but as air pressure is increased terminal velocity for the same object changes.
I have not even looked at the numbers on the site, but hazard a guess that his greatest velocity was achieved closer to the beginning of the jump where there is less air resistance to slow the object down.

"A spin is caused by uneven air pressure on an object. If there was enough air pressure to make him spin like we were shown in the crappy footage, there was enough air pressure to rip his body to bits...no doubt about it at that speed they said he was going at."

The amount of air pressure it takes to make him spin is very low compared to the air pressure it takes to rip him apart.
I don't understand why you think they are even close.

If air pressure is thin from a near vacuum, it's not going to put him in a spin as it's friction is not enough to spin his dense body.
If it was, it would rip him apart at the speed he was supposedly doing.

My logic is by taking the video apart by showing inconsistencies and using common sense to make people aware of how being up that height would kill any human, let alone falling from it.

Of course that relies on assumption that you understand enough about what was going on to make an intelligent assessment.  So far, I have not seen enough evidence to confirm this assumption.

" using common sense to make people aware of how being up that height would kill any human, let alone falling from it."

You keep saying that. You agree the air is less dense as you go up. You agree that the air becomes more dense as you go down....

Why do you think the air pressure would kill him?

Go and drive down a motorway at 100 mph and get someone to stand up through the sun roof. What do you think would happen?
I know what you're going to say. Your going to say, " yes but he was falling in air that was very thin."

I agree, it would be very thin. It wouldn't be very thin for too long though in terms of friction on his body, at 800+ mph as we are told.

So,the next scene is, " yes but he pulled his drogue parachute to slow him down to a sensible speed before opening his main one."
His drogue parachute would be like opening a net curtain and jumping out of a plane. Little resistance and a plummet to death.

Now then: Let's get back to the car.
How about deploying a parachute at 100 mph as you're hanging out of that sun roof?
How about 400 mph?

The man would be ripped apart on his spin, even before he pulled any chute. Also a spin at that speed would have knocked him senseless even if he was super human.

There's no way out of it. The jump was as fake as a £1 market rolex.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 22, 2014, 06:31:16 AM

My logic is by taking the video apart by showing inconsistencies and using common sense to make people aware of how being up that height would kill any human, let alone falling from it.

Of course that relies on assumption that you understand enough about what was going on to make an intelligent assessment.  So far, I have not seen enough evidence to confirm this assumption.

That's fair enough. At least you hold the mind that it's possible the jump was faked just as much as it could be real. That's something rather than outright acceptance.
As you know: I can't directly prove anything. I'm typing on a forum and basically putting out stuff for people to think on.
Kittinger in his suit V Baumgartner in his suit and capsule should really be enough for any logical person to see it was all a complete scam.

Making stuff up that defies reality isn't appealing to logic.

Your proof is silly video evidence by unconditional belief. It's basically like saying, " oh, I saw a kid flying and levitating with no means of holding him up, it's on video so it's true."

Actually, it's not like that at all.

It's a video of a guy making a jump from 128,000 feet..............because he actually did make a jump from 128,000 feet.

You denying it is like seeing a video of a person jumping in a swimming pool and saying it's fake despite there being no evidence to support it.

My logic is by taking the video apart by showing inconsistencies and using common sense to make people aware of how being up that height would kill any human, let alone falling from it.

You haven't taken anything apart. You've expressed opinions and it's plainly obvious to anyone with a brain that you're wrong.

Your claims are baseless and unfounded. They lack the logic you claim to be appealing to.

How about putting the video up for me. What's wrong?

What's wrong with clicking over to page 1 of this thread? What is wrong with going to a new window and using youtube?

Put forth some effort scepti.

Your proof is silly video evidence by unconditional belief. It's basically like saying, " oh, I saw a kid flying and levitating with no means of holding him up, it's on video so it's true."

That's a bit narrow minded, we can see a lot more than that. For just one simple and omitted example, the compelling reactions of his loved ones on Earth at various stages of the decent.

The helium balloon rises initially for the same reason a bubble of air rises to the top of a body of water.
It gets larger as the surrounding air pressure gradually becomes lower allowing the balloon to expand
(the same thing will happen to a bubble of air in water as it rises.
The balloons are designed to pop at a specific altitude, so the thickness of the latex is initially calculated
to withstand a certain amount of pressure from the inside before they pop, and the payload falls to earth
sometimes slowed with the aid of a pre-deployed parachute.

"You tell me, without using google, what you think happens to a helium balloon from launch to stopping before popping at whatever height it reaches."

If the ballon plus the helium inside weighs less than the the air it displaces it will rise. As the balloon goes up it will feel less and less pressure and expand till it releases the helium through pores in the balloon or just pops.

Is there something about a Flat Earth that counters this?

Go and drive down a motorway at 100 mph and get someone to stand up through the sun roof. What do you think would happen?
I know what you're going to say. Your going to say, " yes but he was falling in air that was very thin."

I agree, it would be very thin. It wouldn't be very thin for too long though in terms of friction on his body, at 800+ mph as we are told.

Scepti, do you understand the concept of terminal velocity?  It means that friction from the the atmosphere will only allow you to free fall so fast.  At the altitude that Felix jumped, the air was thin enough for long enough so that he could reach about 800 mph.  But, as you said, the air started getting thick enough so that friction started slowing him down.  Eventually, the atmosphere got thick enough where friction slowed him down to about 120 mph, or so, so that he could safely deploy his parachute.

Making stuff up that defies reality isn't appealing to logic.

Quote

Your proof is silly video evidence by unconditional belief. It's basically like saying, " oh, I saw a kid flying and levitating with no means of holding him up, it's on video so it's true."

Actually, it's not like that at all.

It's a video of a guy making a jump from 128,000 feet..............because he actually did make a jump from 128,000 feet.

You denying it is like seeing a video of a person jumping in a swimming pool and saying it's fake despite there being no evidence to support it.

Quote

My logic is by taking the video apart by showing inconsistencies and using common sense to make people aware of how being up that height would kill any human, let alone falling from it.

You haven't taken anything apart. You've expressed opinions and it's plainly obvious to anyone with a brain that you're wrong.

Your claims are baseless and unfounded. They lack the logic you claim to be appealing to.

No...my denying it, isn't like me seeing a video of someone diving into a swimming pool. You see, I've dived into one many times, as have you probably, so I can take that video as being not an issue to question.
A 128,000 feet jump from a helium balloon hold many questions against it's authenticity, having not seen much of it, except Kittingers in his silly suit and helmet, plus silly open capsule v baumgartners space like suit and closed capsule.
The video footage of both goes from extremely crisp, to pathetic, it's almost like the technology decides to go pre-historic just at the right times where people would start to question it.

My logic is sound. Your logic isn't logic. It's immediate refusal to even look at it critically, for whatever reason.

Quote

How about putting the video up for me. What's wrong?

What's wrong with clicking over to page 1 of this thread? What is wrong with going to a new window and using youtube?

Put forth some effort scepti.

I just want you to put the video up of his 800 mph fall and spin. That's all I need to see. Do you have the footage or not?

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

You can see the fall, snip and recovery here.

What part of this video is pre-historic?

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 22, 2014, 06:31:16 AM

Your proof is silly video evidence by unconditional belief. It's basically like saying, " oh, I saw a kid flying and levitating with no means of holding him up, it's on video so it's true."

That's a bit narrow minded, we can see a lot more than that. For just one simple and omitted example, the compelling reactions of his loved ones on Earth at various stages of the decent.

The helium balloon rises initially for the same reason a bubble of air rises to the top of a body of water.
It gets larger as the surrounding air pressure gradually becomes lower allowing the balloon to expand
(the same thing will happen to a bubble of air in water as it rises.
The balloons are designed to pop at a specific altitude, so the thickness of the latex is initially calculated
to withstand a certain amount of pressure from the inside before they pop, and the payload falls to earth
sometimes slowed with the aid of a pre-deployed parachute.

Correct, the helium expands in the balloon wich pushes the denser air out of the way which comes back around and under it, which pushes the balloon up.

Now what do you think is happening inside of his suit as soon as he opens that capsule.And what do you think would happen as he falls. Think of diver, doing a fast dive.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 22, 2014, 06:50:04 AM

Go and drive down a motorway at 100 mph and get someone to stand up through the sun roof. What do you think would happen?
I know what you're going to say. Your going to say, " yes but he was falling in air that was very thin."

I agree, it would be very thin. It wouldn't be very thin for too long though in terms of friction on his body, at 800+ mph as we are told.

Scepti, do you understand the concept of terminal velocity?  It means that friction from the the atmosphere will only allow you to free fall so fast.  At the altitude that Felix jumped, the air was thin enough for long enough so that he could reach about 800 mph.  But, as you said, the air started getting thick enough so that friction started slowing him down.  Eventually, the atmosphere got thick enough where friction slowed him down to about 120 mph, or so, so that he could safely deploy his parachute.

Yes...which is my whole point. His speed whilst drpping into more friction would ensure that he would have been ripped apart on his tumble. His tumble can only happen if there's enough friction to change his mass to form that spin.

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

You can see the fall, snip and recovery here.

What part of this video is pre-historic?

I'll dissect this video soon. Give me half an hour and I'll show you what's wrong with it all.

Well.. No. The balloon feels less pressure on top than on bottom. So it rises.

When he opens the door the pressure outside his suit is almost none. The suit provides pressure inside the suit to keep him alive.

When he jumps he feels almost no pressure. As he falls he starts feeling pressure and begins spinning. He is unable to correct the spin because there is not enough pressure for his arms and legs to be useful.

Gradually he feels more and more pressure until his arms and legs are useful to control his attitude.


When a diver dives into water he is going from air(low density) directly into water(higher density).

Do you think there is some layer of increased pressure like air and water?