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Atmospheric Lensing

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sandmanMike

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Atmospheric Lensing
« on: June 20, 2014, 04:24:52 PM »
I was told that Atmospheric Lensing is what keeps the sun as it comes near and far the same size to us.  Can anyone describe the parameters of this lensing effect so that it can be replicated?

When doing a 3D simulation you can see how the Sun grows and shrinks visibly because it is getting closer and further away.
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guv

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 04:55:35 PM »
   You must have heard about the green turtle farts changing the optical properties of the atmosphere.
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Shmeggley

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 05:16:42 PM »
Quote from: sandmanMike on June 20, 2014, 04:24:52 PM
I was told that Atmospheric Lensing is what keeps the sun as it comes near and far the same size to us.  Can anyone describe the parameters of this lensing effect so that it can be replicated?

When doing a 3D simulation you can see how the Sun grows and shrinks visibly because it is getting closer and further away.
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Is there a way to render this while keeping the horizon in view? You show the change in size of the Sun really well, but I think a stationary view looking West would show the way the Sun curves away to the North and never even comes near the horizon.
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Quote from: sceptimatic on July 29, 2014, 06:00:17 AM
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sandmanMike

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2014, 06:13:00 PM »
Would like it to only look towards the west?  Not to follow the sun?
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Shmeggley

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2014, 07:01:58 PM »
Quote from: sandmanMike on June 20, 2014, 06:13:00 PM
Would like it to only look towards the west?  Not to follow the sun?

I want to look towards where the Sun should set and to be able to see the horizon line. I think you'd have to slow it down some so the Sun doesn't just whip right past.

What do you use to make these simulations anyway?
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Quote from: sceptimatic on July 29, 2014, 06:00:17 AM
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?
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sandmanMike

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2014, 08:26:56 PM »
I use 3ds max.  I'll see if I can't throw something together tomorrow.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2014, 02:00:17 AM »
You are failing to take into account refraction, which is light bending, as well as perspective and diffusion.  The atmoplane does funny things to light. 
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Goddamnit, Clown

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2014, 05:17:08 AM »
Quote from: sandmanMike on June 20, 2014, 04:24:52 PM
Can anyone describe the parameters ... so that it can be replicated?

Quote from: jroa on June 21, 2014, 02:00:17 AM
You are failing to take into account refraction, which is light bending, as well as perspective and diffusion.  The atmoplane does funny things to light.

Quote from: sandmanMike on June 20, 2014, 04:24:52 PM
Can anyone describe the parameters ... so that it can be replicated?
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2014, 07:21:39 AM »
Atmoplanic conditions change from day to day. 
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sandmanMike

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2014, 07:39:49 AM »
Quote from: jroa on June 21, 2014, 07:21:39 AM
Atmoplanic conditions change from day to day.

If this is the case, how does the sun stay consistent?
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Goddamnit, Clown

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2014, 08:11:39 AM »
Quote from: sandmanMike on June 20, 2014, 04:24:52 PM
Can anyone describe the parameters ... so that it can be replicated?
Quote from: jroa on June 21, 2014, 07:21:39 AM
Atmoplanic conditions change from day to day.

So, no?

Can you describe the factors which prevent the sun changing size when it's anywhere from 5km to 20,000km at the horizon and 62km to 3000km overhead?
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sandmanMike

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2014, 11:43:10 AM »
Quote from: Shmeggley on June 20, 2014, 07:01:58 PM
Quote from: sandmanMike on June 20, 2014, 06:13:00 PM
Would like it to only look towards the west?  Not to follow the sun?

I want to look towards where the Sun should set and to be able to see the horizon line. I think you'd have to slow it down some so the Sun doesn't just whip right past.

What do you use to make these simulations anyway?

As requested.  Here you can see the sun going westward and then it once it has reached the maximum distance it then starts to move back towards us and up in the sky.  I have left the line it's tracing in the sky, that line is the equator line and the path the sun follows over the flat earth to show it's path.

The tallest building seen is the Burj Khalifa at about 1/2 mile tall.  The camera has been placed 100 miles away from the tower.  Another interesting result that I had not thought about are the shadows.  Look how they splay outwards as the sun passes in between the buildings.  This is because the light source is so small unlike the RE Sun and the shadows we see day to day.  (The sun in this simulation has a diameter of 32 miles)

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EarthIsASpaceship

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2014, 11:53:29 AM »
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inquisitive

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2014, 12:05:50 PM »
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 21, 2014, 11:53:29 AM
No Mike, it's simple magnification:
http://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset
Rubbish, explain the views of the sun from different parts of the world at the same time.
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EarthIsASpaceship

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2014, 12:57:18 PM »
What is there to explain?  Can you be more specific?
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rottingroom

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2014, 12:59:14 PM »
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 21, 2014, 12:57:18 PM
What is there to explain?  Can you be more specific?

Well for starters, here again, the video that Mike just posted is about the sun's position, not it's size. So it doesn't make sense that you brought up sun magnification.

Not that that isn't incorrect as well.
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EarthIsASpaceship

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2014, 03:02:17 PM »
No, read it again.  He specifically mentioned SIZE.  It does matter you know.   :P
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rottingroom

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2014, 03:14:33 PM »
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 21, 2014, 03:02:17 PM
No, read it again.  He specifically mentioned SIZE.  It does matter you know.   :P

So it does. So how does magnification of the sun, as described in wiki, actually work out with observations?

The claim in the wiki is, "hey look, lights can get bigger the further away they are!!!" But the observation is that the sun doesn't.

I suppose that your next claim would be that, "but the sun is getting bigger, it's getting further away and it appears to be the same size..."

To which I ask "then why are the lights in the wiki getting further away, but getting bigger?"

Not to mention that in all the examples from that wiki, some lights get bigger, some get smaller, and it doesn't seem to depend on distance at all.

The video that sandmanMike made showed a lot of things in it. Much more than just some stuff about the sun's size (which the magnification wiki fails to explain).
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sandmanMike

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2014, 05:01:36 PM »
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 21, 2014, 11:53:29 AM
No Mike, it's simple magnification:
http://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset

Those are night time pictures, how does that work during the day?
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EarthIsASpaceship

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2014, 07:27:16 PM »
You see light during the day too.  The point is, the sun looks bigger on the horizon because of the atmosphere magnifying it.  Similar to how something in water looks bigger.
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rottingroom

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2014, 07:37:14 PM »
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 21, 2014, 07:27:16 PM
You see light during the day too.  The point is, the sun looks bigger on the horizon because of the atmosphere magnifying it.  Similar to how something in water looks bigger.

Is that the same sun that can't ever actually get to the horizon on a FE?

Did you happen to notice that his animation had no horizon bound sun?
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EarthIsASpaceship

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2014, 08:00:15 PM »
It does get to the horizon because we see it get there.  The horizon is simply sky meeting Earth...a perception.  Maybe the sun is a hole in the glass sky, letting light in.  :-\
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Shmeggley

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2014, 08:25:24 PM »
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 21, 2014, 08:00:15 PM
It does get to the horizon because we see it get there.  The horizon is simply sky meeting Earth...a perception.  Maybe the sun is a hole in the glass sky, letting light in.  :-\

A moving hole in a glass sky - honestly, you think this makes more sense than the Earth being round, which automatically explains everything?

Sandmanmike, sorry to put you through all that work for nothing. I thought it came out great. I think this shows perfectly what an FE Sun would actually do. Until someone can provide the proper atmospheric data, I think this is the best refutation of this FE model going.
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Quote from: sceptimatic on July 29, 2014, 06:00:17 AM
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?
*

sandmanMike

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2014, 08:47:56 PM »
Quote from: Shmeggley on June 21, 2014, 08:25:24 PM
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 21, 2014, 08:00:15 PM
It does get to the horizon because we see it get there.  The horizon is simply sky meeting Earth...a perception.  Maybe the sun is a hole in the glass sky, letting light in.  :-\

A moving hole in a glass sky - honestly, you think this makes more sense than the Earth being round, which automatically explains everything?

Sandmanmike, sorry to put you through all that work for nothing. I thought it came out great. I think this shows perfectly what an FE Sun would actually do. Until someone can provide the proper atmospheric data, I think this is the best refutation of this FE model going.

Oh no problem at all.  Needed the escape.
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sandmanMike

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2014, 08:49:49 PM »
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 21, 2014, 07:27:16 PM
You see light during the day too.  The point is, the sun looks bigger on the horizon because of the atmosphere magnifying it.  Similar to how something in water looks bigger.

Can you explain why the sun doesn't reach the horizon in the FE model.
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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2014, 07:22:45 AM »
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 21, 2014, 08:00:15 PM
Maybe the sun is a hole in the glass sky, letting light in.  :-\
Maybe it is a troupe of dancing mermaids with an arclight?
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rottingroom

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2014, 07:30:44 AM »
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 21, 2014, 08:00:15 PM
It does get to the horizon because we see it get there.  The horizon is simply sky meeting Earth...a perception.  Maybe the sun is a hole in the glass sky, letting light in.  :-\

You are starting to remind me of John Excelsior.
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EarthIsASpaceship

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2014, 08:44:45 AM »
Quote from: sandmanMike on June 21, 2014, 08:49:49 PM
Can you explain why the sun doesn't reach the horizon in the FE model.
I don't know why you guys keep bringing this up.  The horizon is where the sky meets the Earth's landscape.  It's only perspective.  Objects in the sky don't REALLY get as low as the Earth.  The landscape in front of the sun BLOCKS it.
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ausGeoff

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2014, 08:59:51 AM »
Quote from: sandmanMike on June 21, 2014, 11:43:10 AM
As requested.  Here you can see the sun going westward and then it once it has reached the maximum distance it then starts to move back towards us and up in the sky.  I have left the line it's tracing in the sky, that line is the equator line and the path the sun follows over the flat earth to show it's path.

The tallest building seen is the Burj Khalifa at about 1/2 mile tall.  The camera has been placed 100 miles away from the tower.  Another interesting result that I had not thought about are the shadows.  Look how they splay outwards as the sun passes in between the buildings.  This is because the light source is so small unlike the RE Sun and the shadows we see day to day.  (The sun in this simulation has a diameter of 32 miles).

Great animation Mike!  Let's hope it draws some intelligent comments from the flat earthers.  The splayed shadows are the deal-breaker here I think.  With this flat earth sun's size, altitude, and orbit, the shadows just look crazy.



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rottingroom

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Re: Atmospheric Lensing
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2014, 09:03:58 AM »
Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on June 22, 2014, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: sandmanMike on June 21, 2014, 08:49:49 PM
Can you explain why the sun doesn't reach the horizon in the FE model.
I don't know why you guys keep bringing this up.  The horizon is where the sky meets the Earth's landscape.  It's only perspective.  Objects in the sky don't REALLY get as low as the Earth.  The landscape in front of the sun BLOCKS it.

We keep bringing it up because you don't get it. The landscape can't be in front of it to block it unless it is in front of it to block it. You've been shown equations, diagrams and have been given thorough explanations about why the sun will never reach the horizon on a flat earth no matter how big the flat earth is. Yet, you still keep insisting that your perspective garbage stuff will work. You don't get out of it and move on as if you've debunked our contentions to that by just saying "PERSPECTIVE DOES IT". You failed to show why it does. We have shown exactly why it doesn't.

Do you understand?

You are absolutely incorrect about all of it. Every single one of the threads in the debate section that I made that goes over this stuff shows, without a doubt, that your claims are wrong.

You are wrong about refraction.
You are wrong about the sun's distance from earth.
You are wrong about it's apparent angle from the horizon.

You aren't going to magically be right about this if you continue with being on the side you are on. You can never be right from the wrong side. Once you finally get it, that the earth is round, then you can finally say that you are right. Do you understand?
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