Foucault pendulums

Quote from: inquisitive on June 01, 2014, 12:23:48 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 01, 2014, 11:46:38 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on June 01, 2014, 06:01:40 AM

How, exactly, do these magnets affect the swing if they are at the top, and what if the string is non magnetic?

It is a very simple circuit to make it work with an electromagnet and a switch.

Please explain more, and how was the switch operated 100 years ago

The electromagnet would turn on at a certain point, then turn off at a certain point.  It is simple physics.

What would the magnet attract and who or what would be doing the switching?

Quote from: jroa on June 01, 2014, 12:36:27 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on June 01, 2014, 12:23:48 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 01, 2014, 11:46:38 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on June 01, 2014, 06:01:40 AM

How, exactly, do these magnets affect the swing if they are at the top, and what if the string is non magnetic?

It is a very simple circuit to make it work with an electromagnet and a switch.

Please explain more, and how was the switch operated 100 years ago

The electromagnet would turn on at a certain point, then turn off at a certain point.  It is simple physics.

What would the magnet attract and who or what would be doing the switching?

The magnet could be affecting anything. Even non-ferromagnetic materials are affected by electromagnetism.   

Quote from: inquisitive on June 01, 2014, 12:42:48 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 01, 2014, 12:36:27 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on June 01, 2014, 12:23:48 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 01, 2014, 11:46:38 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on June 01, 2014, 06:01:40 AM

How, exactly, do these magnets affect the swing if they are at the top, and what if the string is non magnetic?

It is a very simple circuit to make it work with an electromagnet and a switch.

Please explain more, and how was the switch operated 100 years ago

The electromagnet would turn on at a certain point, then turn off at a certain point.  It is simple physics.

What would the magnet attract and who or what would be doing the switching?

The magnet could be affecting anything. Even non-ferromagnetic materials are affected by electromagnetism.

So, basically, who don't have a clue how your theory would work.

Quote from: jroa on June 01, 2014, 01:12:20 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on June 01, 2014, 12:42:48 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 01, 2014, 12:36:27 PM

Quote from: inquisitive on June 01, 2014, 12:23:48 PM

Quote from: jroa on June 01, 2014, 11:46:38 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on June 01, 2014, 06:01:40 AM

How, exactly, do these magnets affect the swing if they are at the top, and what if the string is non magnetic?

It is a very simple circuit to make it work with an electromagnet and a switch.

Please explain more, and how was the switch operated 100 years ago

The electromagnet would turn on at a certain point, then turn off at a certain point.  It is simple physics.

What would the magnet attract and who or what would be doing the switching?

The magnet could be affecting anything. Even non-ferromagnetic materials are affected by electromagnetism.

So, basically, who don't have a clue how your theory would work.

Only people who don't understand how an electromagnet works. 

No magnet, electro or permanent, is going to attract a solid brass object. That doesn't mean there couldn't be a hidden magnet, or a peice of steel inside a brass bob.

While I don't think it could be easily faked, it's not impossible. Like good conspiracy theorists, the mere possibility is proof to the FE side. For the rest of us skeptics, more is needed. Like I suggested a few pages ago, I invite any doubters to visit a public Foucault pendulum and bring your EMF meter along. Shouldn't be hard to confirm a fake using magnets this way.

To the chicken hearts who fear the men in black throwing them out, I say video record the whole event.

Jroa, are you arguing that Foucault pendulums do work as advertised, only not due to Earth's rotation, or that they are all faked?

Geoff, my explanation regarding how Foucault Pendulums work should not be used to disprove other theories regardining how they work. Like I've said countless times, my work with Foucault Pendulums is just one example of how they could be done, and other explanations and methods obviously work just as well as the ones that Charles and jroa have brought up.


It just goes to show how many different ways Foucault could have defrauded the entire scientific community.

Vauxhaull, not only have you failed to explain how Foucault pendulums work, you've never even shown convincingly how they could be faked.

Have you not seen the diagrams? I don't want to have to post them again.

...
It just goes to show how many different ways Foucault could have defrauded the entire scientific community.

Now where is your evidence that they do?

Vauxhaull, not only have you failed to explain how Foucault pendulums work, you've never even shown convincingly how they could be faked.

^^^ This has given me an idea. If anyone on this forum can create a Foucault pendulum where the rotation of the plane of the pendulum's swing can be controlled by the user, then I'll give claims of fakery some credit. For example, if you live in the Northern hemisphere and you can make a pendulum rotate anti-clockwise at a controllable rate (say, once an hour), then I'll believe it can be faked. And there's no point claiming that it would be too expensive to do, if they could do it 150 years ago, then it should be easy as pie to do it now. Oh, and it doesn't need to be huge, a small model (1-2ft tall) would suffice.

Have you not seen the diagrams? I don't want to have to post them again.

Nor would I want you to post them again, it was insulting and embarrassing enough the first time. I highly doubt that permanent magnet setup could even work, and I seriously doubt you actually did it.

Quote from: Shmeggley on June 01, 2014, 07:42:21 PM

Vauxhaull, not only have you failed to explain how Foucault pendulums work, you've never even shown convincingly how they could be faked.

^^^ This has given me an idea. If anyone on this forum can create a Foucault pendulum where the rotation of the plane of the pendulum's swing can be controlled by the user, then I'll give claims of fakery some credit. For example, if you live in the Northern hemisphere and you can make a pendulum rotate anti-clockwise at a controllable rate (say, once an hour), then I'll believe it can be faked. And there's no point claiming that it would be too expensive to do, if they could do it 150 years ago, then it should be easy as pie to do it now. Oh, and it doesn't need to be huge, a small model (1-2ft tall) would suffice.

That's ridiculous. It would be extremely expensive to even start developing such a pendulum. Since you seem to think it would be no big deal, how about you donate money to one of us to start it? I'm too busy to do it now, so I'd recommend finding someone other than myself who is willing to exert the time and effort into making such a thing.

Or, hey I have an idea, why don't you do it yourself? I've seen it work in action, I don't need to prove it to myself.

Quote from: Scintific Method on June 01, 2014, 08:57:01 PM

Quote from: Shmeggley on June 01, 2014, 07:42:21 PM

Vauxhaull, not only have you failed to explain how Foucault pendulums work, you've never even shown convincingly how they could be faked.

^^^ This has given me an idea. If anyone on this forum can create a Foucault pendulum where the rotation of the plane of the pendulum's swing can be controlled by the user, then I'll give claims of fakery some credit. For example, if you live in the Northern hemisphere and you can make a pendulum rotate anti-clockwise at a controllable rate (say, once an hour), then I'll believe it can be faked. And there's no point claiming that it would be too expensive to do, if they could do it 150 years ago, then it should be easy as pie to do it now. Oh, and it doesn't need to be huge, a small model (1-2ft tall) would suffice.

That's ridiculous. It would be extremely expensive to even start developing such a pendulum. Since you seem to think it would be no big deal, how about you donate money to one of us to start it? I'm too busy to do it now, so I'd recommend finding someone other than myself who is willing to exert the time and effort into making such a thing.

Or, hey I have an idea, why don't you do it yourself? I've seen it work in action, I don't need to prove it to myself.

So you're saying that replicating something that was first put on public display 160 years ago would be prohibitively expensive to do now? How can that be? The required technology should be easily cobbled together for pennies in this day and age.

Unless, of course, there is no feasible way to fake it, and the pendulum rotates for the reason given: as a result of the rotation of the earth.

Besides, why should I put effort into supporting your claim? It's your claim, you back it up. Prove it would have been possible to fake the results 160 years ago, using technology available at the time.

Any FEer wants to see any of the public pendulums?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Foucault_pendulums

You can go, see it with your own eyes and prove it is fake.

A couple of your comments that I'd like to address jroa:

"It is a very simple circuit to make it work with an electromagnet and a switch" is certainly true in 2014, but 150 years ago such relatively complicated electronic switching didn't exist.

"The electromagnet would turn on at a certain point, then turn off at a certain point.  It is simple physics."  See above.

"Even non-ferromagnetic materials are affected by electromagnetism."  Erroneous. Ferrous materials are the only objects that are physically attracted to magnetic fields.  Aluminum, platinum, and copper are paramagnetic and are affected by strong "eddy currents".   An eddy current is not a magnetic field.

No magnet, electro or permanent, is going to attract a solid brass object.

LOL Who said anything about attracting. Try repelling?  I use to build static separators which use ceramic changed magnets.There use is to separate precious metals. Gold silver brass copper & a multitude of different alloys.
magnetic rectified modulation
       

Vauxhaull, not only have you failed to explain how Foucault pendulums work, you've never even shown convincingly how they could be faked.

Well how does it keep swinging if it can't swing on its own for 24 hours.

LOL Who said anything about attracting. Try repelling?   

A brass bob will not be repelled by a magnet either.  Your story about e-waste is irrelevant as it employs a totally different technology.
 

Well how does it keep swinging if it can't swing on its own for 24 hours.

It only swings for around two hours without a "nudge" (which has already been explained).  However, even a couple of hours is all that's necessary to prove the Foucault theory.

In those two hours, the plane of swing rotates by 360º/12 = 30º relative to the floor, and which is easily visible.

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 02, 2014, 05:55:28 AM

LOL Who said anything about attracting. Try repelling?   

A brass bob will not be repelled by a magnet either.  Your story about e-waste is irrelevant as it employs a totally different technology.

Its irrelevant ? What you having people think brass cant be attracted or repelled by a magnet. Brass is a composition alloy. It consists of a mixture of ether copper & zinc or copper & tin
Tin being magnetic & zinc Diamagnetic.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/alloys/a/Brass-Alloys.htm       

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 02, 2014, 05:57:53 AM

Well how does it keep swinging if it can't swing on its own for 24 hours.

It only swings for around two hours without a "nudge" (which has already been explained).  However, even a couple of hours is all that's necessary to prove the Foucault theory.

In those two hours, the plane of swing rotates by 360º/12 = 30º relative to the floor, and which is easily visible.

The nudge has already been explained ? I thought that was what was being debated. Please explain the methods used for theses nudges.   

Quote from: ausGeoff on June 02, 2014, 06:43:48 AM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 02, 2014, 05:57:53 AM

Well how does it keep swinging if it can't swing on its own for 24 hours.

It only swings for around two hours without a "nudge" (which has already been explained).  However, even a couple of hours is all that's necessary to prove the Foucault theory.

In those two hours, the plane of swing rotates by 360º/12 = 30º relative to the floor, and which is easily visible.

The nudge has already been explained ? I thought that was what was being debated. Please explain the methods used for theses nudges.

It's explained in a little detail here: http://www.abc.net.au/surf/pendulum/pendulum.htm#magnetic

Note that in the original construction by Leon Foucault, no magnets are used.

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 02, 2014, 07:35:16 AM

Quote from: ausGeoff on June 02, 2014, 06:43:48 AM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 02, 2014, 05:57:53 AM

Well how does it keep swinging if it can't swing on its own for 24 hours.

It only swings for around two hours without a "nudge" (which has already been explained).  However, even a couple of hours is all that's necessary to prove the Foucault theory.

In those two hours, the plane of swing rotates by 360º/12 = 30º relative to the floor, and which is easily visible.

The nudge has already been explained ? I thought that was what was being debated. Please explain the methods used for theses nudges.

It's explained in a little detail here: http://www.abc.net.au/surf/pendulum/pendulum.htm#magnetic

Note that in the original construction by Leon Foucault, no magnets are used.

Well how long did the original construction by Leon Foucault swing for ?

I'm not sure. Clearly it was long enough to see the rotation happening.

The first public exhibition of a Foucault pendulum took place in February 1851 in the Meridian of the Paris Observatory. A few weeks later Foucault made his most famous pendulum when he suspended a 28 kg brass-coated lead bob with a 67 meter long wire from the dome of the Panthéon, Paris. The plane of the pendulum's swing rotated clockwise 11° per hour, making a full circle in 32.7 hours. The original bob used in 1851 at the Panthéon was moved in 1855 to the Conservatoire des Arts et Métiers in Paris. A second temporary installation was made for the 50th anniversary in 1902.

So the plane of the pendulum's swing rotated clockwise 11° per hour, making a full circle in 32.7 hours. How did it keep swinging for 32.7 hours ?

"Even non-ferromagnetic materials are affected by electromagnetism."  Erroneous. Ferrous materials are the only objects that are physically attracted to magnetic fields.  Aluminum, platinum, and copper are paramagnetic and are affected by strong "eddy currents".   An eddy current is not a magnetic field.

Really?

#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">#

Quote from: ausGeoff on June 02, 2014, 05:46:59 AM

"Even non-ferromagnetic materials are affected by electromagnetism."  Erroneous. Ferrous materials are the only objects that are physically attracted to magnetic fields.  Aluminum, platinum, and copper are paramagnetic and are affected by strong "eddy currents".   An eddy current is not a magnetic field.

Really?

#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Some spurious video jroa probably made in his kitchen

Are you suggesting that this is how Foucault pendulums work?

Quote from: jroa on June 02, 2014, 09:34:12 AM

Quote from: ausGeoff on June 02, 2014, 05:46:59 AM

"Even non-ferromagnetic materials are affected by electromagnetism."  Erroneous. Ferrous materials are the only objects that are physically attracted to magnetic fields.  Aluminum, platinum, and copper are paramagnetic and are affected by strong "eddy currents".   An eddy current is not a magnetic field.

Really?

#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Some spurious video jroa probably made in his kitchen

Are you suggesting that this is how Foucault pendulums work?

No, he's suggesting that ausGeoff was mistaken.

The first public exhibition of a Foucault pendulum took place in February 1851 in the Meridian of the Paris Observatory. A few weeks later Foucault made his most famous pendulum when he suspended a 28 kg brass-coated lead bob with a 67 meter long wire from the dome of the Panthéon, Paris. The plane of the pendulum's swing rotated clockwise 11° per hour, making a full circle in 32.7 hours. The original bob used in 1851 at the Panthéon was moved in 1855 to the Conservatoire des Arts et Métiers in Paris. A second temporary installation was made for the 50th anniversary in 1902.

So the plane of the pendulum's swing rotated clockwise 11° per hour, making a full circle in 32.7 hours. How did it keep swinging for 32.7 hours ?

Who said it swung for 32.7 consecutive hours? 

I mean, with a heavy enough weight and long enough wire, making every effort to reduce friction and limit air currents, maybe it can go that long. The point is, it doesn't need to. You just need to let it go for a known period of time and measure the angle, then do some basic math:

360°/11 °/hr = 32.7 hr.

Making sense now?

Quote from: Shmeggley on June 02, 2014, 10:56:00 AM

Quote from: jroa on June 02, 2014, 09:34:12 AM

Quote from: ausGeoff on June 02, 2014, 05:46:59 AM

"Even non-ferromagnetic materials are affected by electromagnetism."  Erroneous. Ferrous materials are the only objects that are physically attracted to magnetic fields.  Aluminum, platinum, and copper are paramagnetic and are affected by strong "eddy currents".   An eddy current is not a magnetic field.

Really?

#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Some spurious video jroa probably made in his kitchen

Are you suggesting that this is how Foucault pendulums work?

No, he's suggesting that ausGeoff was mistaken.

ausGeoff is right in every way relevant to the discussion. The argument was that you can't attract (or repel) brass with a magnet in the context of the Foucault pendulum experiment. This is just another derail attempt by jroa obviously. If he wants to argue that diamagnetism is used to alter the movement of the bob, that's fine by me. That's something we should be able to test for easily. As I've said multiple times now - EMF meters are commonly available. If those goofs on Ghost Hunters or whatever the hell that show is can get hold of one, I'm sure someone from the FES can get one and test this theory out.