some questions on phlogiston

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V

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Re: Explain me this
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2014, 07:13:18 PM »
Random, it is hard to dispute truth.
Unless you are a conspiracy theorist.
i don't need a signature. go away.

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2014, 07:21:50 PM »
Well, V, I guess you have a point.

Re: Explain me this
« Reply #122 on: May 12, 2014, 03:32:06 AM »
Random, it is hard to dispute truth.
Unless you are a conspiracy theorist.

Thats more like denying, not disputing...

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2014, 06:17:26 AM »
So Jroa, it's been a week or so at least, are you any "closer" to proving phlogiston? Did you do as i suggested and take a look at some known samples and compare them to each other to find the color signature of it? Or explain why things ignite at different temps, and burn at different temps?

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Son of Orospu

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2014, 06:21:24 AM »
No.  I worked all week.  Besides, I couldn't care less about proving Phlogiston for your amusement.  You will not believe any proof that I could possibly offer anyway, so why should I bother? 

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2014, 06:36:10 AM »
if it's legitimate and repeatable sure i will! Don't just say "i did some stuff and got this so hah."

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Goddamnit, Clown

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #126 on: May 17, 2014, 06:38:14 AM »
If your phlogiston hypothesis took you further than mankind's knowledge of chemisty, or even further than primitive man or common sense, I would absolutely test it myself with an open mind. What more do you want? Blind acceptance?
Big Pendulum have their tentacles everywhere.

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sokarul

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2014, 06:55:02 AM »
No.  I worked all week.  Besides, I couldn't care less about proving Phlogiston for your amusement.  You will not believe any proof that I could possibly offer anyway, so why should I bother?
You mean to say you don't have any.
Sokarul

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RealScientist

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #128 on: May 18, 2014, 07:59:25 PM »
The damn shame of all this phlogiston hypothesis is that jroa shuts his eyes and ears and shouts "lalalalalala I can't hear you" instead of doing the experiments that practically started modern chemistry.

One of the decisive pieces of evidence that atoms exist came precisely from this kind of experiment. You weigh things, burn them, weigh them again. You try to burn more combustible with the same oxygen. You try to burn less combustible with the same combustible. All of a sudden, you have evidence that matter is made of atoms! All of a sudden, you can start making a periodic table of elements! You can even start to understand thermodynamics!

But what does jroa take home? The knowledge that things burn. The knowledge that things don't burn without oxygen. In other words, nothing that Babylonians did not know, but with a word for the mixture of methane and ethane that evaporates from burning wood. Phlogiston is really just methane gas and ethane gas, but don't tell jroa.

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #129 on: May 18, 2014, 08:36:08 PM »
This whole concept about blows my mind. I mean, seriously, I'm close to 40 yo, & hold an MA & 2 BAs. & in all that education, I can only recall hearing about 'phlogiston' once, in Mr. Dart's 12th Grade Physics class. He taught us physics more in terms of the theory of the thing rather than the mathematical application of it, although we got some of that too. But we learned mostly about the development of physics from its most primitive state to its current state. Questions like, how did we get from there (believing in Vulcan, the god of Fire), to here (acknowledging fire as a chemical process whereby certain things take place that render, say, wood, for example, into different substances like ash, & the manner in which this occurs). As per that example, other things burn. But they do so @ different temperatures than wood. Say, iron, for instance. A knowledge of how things ignite & burn is essential to many of our modern conveniences, such as the internal combustion engine, that can be used to power many

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #130 on: May 18, 2014, 08:45:59 PM »
things, but is most widely used to power the automobile. As Mr. Dart explained, the theory of phlogiston was one of many that were floated down through the centuries. It was eventually rejected because it was shown to be inadequate. If man had continued to hold that theory, we'd still be walking, or biking @ best. The internal combustion engine was invented based on a modern understanding of how things ignite & how they burn. The very car that Jroa uses to drive to work each day would not exist if we still believed in phlogiston, because such an idea does not account for why things burn @ different temperatures,  why they can stay lit after the phlogiston is gone, the role of oxygen in burning, etc. So there you are.

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #131 on: May 27, 2014, 04:13:25 AM »
So Jroa, how's this science coming a long? I wait with bated breath.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #132 on: May 27, 2014, 07:37:17 AM »
It's going quite well.  Thank you for asking. 

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Socratic Amusement

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #133 on: May 27, 2014, 08:58:32 AM »
It's going quite well.  Thank you for asking.

...You've got nothing, right?
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."

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Son of Orospu

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #134 on: May 27, 2014, 09:46:08 AM »
It's going quite well.  Thank you for asking.

...You've got nothing, right?

I've been making lots of observations.  You would likely just shrug them all off, like you do with all evidence that is presented here.  Oh well.  I am not here to impress you. 

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Socratic Amusement

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #135 on: May 27, 2014, 09:57:25 AM »
It's going quite well.  Thank you for asking.

...You've got nothing, right?

I've been making lots of observations.  You would likely just shrug them all off, like you do with all evidence that is presented here.  Oh well.  I am not here to impress you.

You don't have to "impress" me.

You have to prove your claim. And if your claim can't stand up to even the barest levels of scrutiny, it is a false claim. When we poke holes in your theories, it isn't because we are interested in maintaining the status quo or whatever. Its because that is how the scientific method works.

You present evidence, we try to disprove it or show a problem with the methodology of gaining evidence. If there is no problem with the methodology, and no problem with the evidence, and it is able to accurately predict things based on the aforementioned, it is accepted.

I will be the first to scream to the world that phlogiston is real if you could prove it.


However, going by past FE "science" I suspect this will merely end with you going silent, and never posting any of your "observations."
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."

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Son of Orospu

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #136 on: May 27, 2014, 10:08:32 AM »
I don't have to do anything.  I did not even read past your second sentence.  You will not come here and bully me.  You can't tell me what I have to do. 

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Vauxhall

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #137 on: May 27, 2014, 10:15:41 AM »
How do you explain magnesium gaining mass when it burns without phlogiston? It's impossible.  ::)
Read the FAQS.

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Socratic Amusement

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #138 on: May 27, 2014, 10:47:13 AM »
I don't have to do anything.  I did not even read past your second sentence.  You will not come here and bully me.  You can't tell me what I have to do.

Since when is asking for proof of a claim "bullying?"

Are you THAT desperate to sidestep legitimate points?
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."

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Son of Orospu

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #139 on: May 27, 2014, 10:53:47 AM »
You have to prove your claim.

No, I do not have to do anything. 

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Socratic Amusement

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #140 on: May 27, 2014, 10:58:08 AM »
You have to prove your claim.

No, I do not have to do anything.

Then, if you don't believe that it is the onus of the person making the claim to back it up with evidence, in this case you, I assume you will cease being a proponent of the phlogiston theory?
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."

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Son of Orospu

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #141 on: May 27, 2014, 11:21:46 AM »
I don't believe that I made any claims.  I answered a question with an educated guess.  Your scientists do that all the time, yet, you do not run around calling them liars, do you? 

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Socratic Amusement

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #142 on: May 27, 2014, 11:52:52 AM »
I don't believe that I made any claims.  I answered a question with an educated guess.  Your scientists do that all the time, yet, you do not run around calling them liars, do you?

Uh. Yeah. We do.

All the time.

Not in those words, it sounds more like "You have made a claim. PROVE IT. With evidence."

Now there are some things that scientists don't fully understand, and they flat out admit it. They have hypothesis for many things, but they admit they are that.

The difference between that, and what you are doing, is that we can objectively prove your assertion false.

So you better have some hefty ammunition to unfalsify it.

But you don't.
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."

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Son of Orospu

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #143 on: May 27, 2014, 11:56:14 AM »
No, it is more like this: "Why is this?", "Probably because of this.", "Now you have to prove it.", "No, I don't."

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #144 on: May 27, 2014, 12:00:48 PM »
No, it is more like this: "Why is this?", "Probably because of this.", "Now you have to prove it.", "No, I don't."


No it isn't. Socratic Amusement had it right.

I understand your FE theory to some extent, but just because our scientists.. who have been researching this for centuries.. can't make you understand, doesn't mean you have to dismiss them like they're childish. They don't battle eachother like we do for who gets the proof. They handle it civily and explore every possible option.
Burden of Proof.

1. The obligation to prove one's assertion.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #145 on: May 27, 2014, 12:17:00 PM »
I don't dismiss anything without a reason.  When I smell bull shit, I call it out. 

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Socratic Amusement

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #146 on: May 27, 2014, 12:23:32 PM »
I don't dismiss anything without a reason.  When I smell bull shit, I call it out.

And when shown repeatedly and undisputedly that it isn't bullshit, you refuse to budge.

This is a bad thing.
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #147 on: May 27, 2014, 12:28:46 PM »
I don't dismiss anything without a reason.  When I smell bull shit, I call it out.

And I'm calling bull shit, on phlogiston. Because I have SEEN the spectrograph readings from various elements burning, and they DON'T share any common colors,which shows that there isn't some common, unknown element, doing the burning.