some questions on phlogiston

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Son of Orospu

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2014, 06:33:12 PM »
Do you have proof that Phlogiston Theory is not possible?  Perhaps you have performed some experiments that you would like to share with us?

I can't remember if I did this one in high school or not; maybe you'd like to try it yourself since you're in doubt?

http://www.nuffieldfoundation.org/practical-chemistry/change-mass-when-magnesium-burns

Since these types of experiments invariably yield the result that the mass increases, then the phlogiston explanation has to include negative mass, a very strange concept indeed! That's the main objection.

However, since the discovery of oxygen and oxidation, we already have a complete explanation without the need for phlogiston, so I don't see why I'd need to prove that phlogiston is impossible. Rather, the burden appears to be on you to explain why it is necessary. :)

I do not own, nor do I have access to, a precision scale.  If I can get a hold of one, I will give this a try.  Magnesium is easy enough to get and shave. 

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2014, 06:35:00 PM »
I appreciate the help, guys.  I cannot state for certain that Phlogiston theory is absolute truth.  However, it does make sense from the observations we normally apply to oxidation.  I could be completely wrong about the whole thing.  And, if so, I am willing to open my mind.  However, the theory does seem to sit well with both Aether theory and Flat Earth theory. 

Let me do some more research, and perhaps I could come up with some experiments that I could try.  I can't promise anything as of yet, though.

Let's keep it civil everyone.

Jroa, as you do your research, I would ask of one thing. Take a look at the EM spectrum of various gasses, and what they look like here on earth, and then take a look at the EM spectrum of various stars around the galaxy, yet none of them will show some common, unknown signature that would be indicative of phlogiston.

I do not have the equipment to measure the EM spectrum of stars.  However, are they not supposed to be red shifted?  Does that not throw off the EM spectrum? 

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2014, 06:36:28 PM »
Do you have proof that Phlogiston Theory is not possible?  Perhaps you have performed some experiments that you would like to share with us?
Well I react sulfur with oxygen on any given day to get SO2 gas. I then analyze the gas flow to see how much SO2 was made. I can then tell how much sulfur was in the sample. Other versions of the instrument will do carbon at the same time. This goes 100% against Phlogiston theory.

Your job sounds fascinating.  Please, tell us more.  ::)

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sokarul

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2014, 06:44:10 PM »
Do you have proof that Phlogiston Theory is not possible?  Perhaps you have performed some experiments that you would like to share with us?
Well I react sulfur with oxygen on any given day to get SO2 gas. I then analyze the gas flow to see how much SO2 was made. I can then tell how much sulfur was in the sample. Other versions of the instrument will do carbon at the same time. This goes 100% against Phlogiston theory.

Your job sounds fascinating.  Please, tell us more.  ::)
How about you explain away oxidation reactions?  Or are you just going to pretend they don't exist so you can keep thinking Phlogiston Theory is a viable theory?
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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2014, 06:47:40 PM »
I appreciate the help, guys.  I cannot state for certain that Phlogiston theory is absolute truth.  However, it does make sense from the observations we normally apply to oxidation.  I could be completely wrong about the whole thing.  And, if so, I am willing to open my mind.  However, the theory does seem to sit well with both Aether theory and Flat Earth theory. 

Let me do some more research, and perhaps I could come up with some experiments that I could try.  I can't promise anything as of yet, though.

Let's keep it civil everyone.

Jroa, as you do your research, I would ask of one thing. Take a look at the EM spectrum of various gasses, and what they look like here on earth, and then take a look at the EM spectrum of various stars around the galaxy, yet none of them will show some common, unknown signature that would be indicative of phlogiston.

I do not have the equipment to measure the EM spectrum of stars.  However, are they not supposed to be red shifted?  Does that not throw off the EM spectrum?

I know you're distrusting of sources and nasa, and space agencies, and schools jroa, but if you look on line, you can find examples of them.

And while, yes, things are red shifted, they are still "in sequence", so if you take, for instance, a print out of reference helium, and then look at a star and "slide" your helium reference along it, then it will almost lock into place, and everything will line up.

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2014, 08:15:39 PM »
Do you have proof that Phlogiston Theory is not possible?  Perhaps you have performed some experiments that you would like to share with us?
Well I react sulfur with oxygen on any given day to get SO2 gas. I then analyze the gas flow to see how much SO2 was made. I can then tell how much sulfur was in the sample. Other versions of the instrument will do carbon at the same time. This goes 100% against Phlogiston theory.

Your job sounds fascinating.  Please, tell us more.  ::)
How about you explain away oxidation reactions?  Or are you just going to pretend they don't exist so you can keep thinking Phlogiston Theory is a viable theory?

Are you sure something is oxidating and not just Phlogisticating?  Have you looked at the atoms through a microscope? 

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sokarul

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2014, 11:40:51 PM »
Do you have proof that Phlogiston Theory is not possible?  Perhaps you have performed some experiments that you would like to share with us?
Well I react sulfur with oxygen on any given day to get SO2 gas. I then analyze the gas flow to see how much SO2 was made. I can then tell how much sulfur was in the sample. Other versions of the instrument will do carbon at the same time. This goes 100% against Phlogiston theory.

Your job sounds fascinating.  Please, tell us more.  ::)
How about you explain away oxidation reactions?  Or are you just going to pretend they don't exist so you can keep thinking Phlogiston Theory is a viable theory?

Are you sure something is oxidating and not just Phlogisticating?  Have you looked at the atoms through a microscope?
How would my instrument distinguish what the phligiston came from if oxidation wasn't happening? The instrument uses IR spectroscopy to figure out how much SO2 gas is flowing in the carrier gas. There is no way for it to work if oxidation didn't exist.
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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2014, 02:57:31 AM »
How would my instrument distinguish what the phligiston came from if oxidation wasn't happening? The instrument uses IR spectroscopy to figure out how much SO2 gas is flowing in the carrier gas. There is no way for it to work if oxidation didn't exist.

Your instrument is calibrated for what you expect it to read.

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2014, 04:25:35 AM »
It's not a theory, it's a hypothesis.

Please label it as such.
Strictly speaking, it's a falsified scientific theory.

It has been superseded by theories that better explain observations, and is therefore obsolete.

Jroa just likes getting all 17th century on our asses.
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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2014, 06:57:59 AM »
Your instrument is calibrated for what you expect it to read.

And all the world's scales which have showed for over a century that burnt things have gained mass and the air they were burnt in has lost it?
Big Pendulum have their tentacles everywhere.

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2014, 07:18:56 AM »
Do you have proof that Phlogiston Theory is not possible?  Perhaps you have performed some experiments that you would like to share with us?

I can't remember if I did this one in high school or not; maybe you'd like to try it yourself since you're in doubt?

http://www.nuffieldfoundation.org/practical-chemistry/change-mass-when-magnesium-burns

Since these types of experiments invariably yield the result that the mass increases, then the phlogiston explanation has to include negative mass, a very strange concept indeed! That's the main objection.

However, since the discovery of oxygen and oxidation, we already have a complete explanation without the need for phlogiston, so I don't see why I'd need to prove that phlogiston is impossible. Rather, the burden appears to be on you to explain why it is necessary. :)

I do not own, nor do I have access to, a precision scale.  If I can get a hold of one, I will give this a try.  Magnesium is easy enough to get and shave.

I got a scale that measures to a precision of 0.01 grams for less than 30 dollars. This is not a problem of not having the equipment, it is a problem of knowing that you will only spend your dollars (however few) in an experiment that will pop your bubble.


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sokarul

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2014, 07:27:16 AM »
How would my instrument distinguish what the phligiston came from if oxidation wasn't happening? The instrument uses IR spectroscopy to figure out how much SO2 gas is flowing in the carrier gas. There is no way for it to work if oxidation didn't exist.

Your instrument is calibrated for what you expect it to read.
It is calibrated for a range. You still didn't address anything. Are you going to explain how it can tell the difference between carbon and sulfur? Keep in mind it only reads what's in the carrier gas. (Which of course is oxygen. )
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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2014, 07:27:56 AM »
Your instrument is calibrated for what you expect it to read.

And all the world's scales which have showed for over a century that burnt things have gained mass and the air they were burnt in has lost it?

And most important, if you are a honest scientist you calibrate your equipment to international standards before you do the experiment and report your results even if they contradict your previous belief.

What you jroa is saying is that the instruments are magical and decide for themselves what calibration will give the expected results. This process ( a scale divining that you want the burnt sample to weigh more than the original and showing the expected result rather than the real one) would only be possible in Oz.

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2014, 07:30:59 AM »
How would my instrument distinguish what the phligiston came from if oxidation wasn't happening? The instrument uses IR spectroscopy to figure out how much SO2 gas is flowing in the carrier gas. There is no way for it to work if oxidation didn't exist.

Your instrument is calibrated for what you expect it to read.
It is calibrated for a range. You still didn't address anything. Are you going to explain how it can tell the difference between carbon and sulfur? Keep in mind it only reads what's in the carrier gas. (Which of course is oxygen. )

Could you somehow be unwittingly measuring dephlogisticated material and you are assuming that oxygen has been added? 

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sokarul

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2014, 07:33:43 AM »
How would my instrument distinguish what the phligiston came from if oxidation wasn't happening? The instrument uses IR spectroscopy to figure out how much SO2 gas is flowing in the carrier gas. There is no way for it to work if oxidation didn't exist.

Your instrument is calibrated for what you expect it to read.
It is calibrated for a range. You still didn't address anything. Are you going to explain how it can tell the difference between carbon and sulfur? Keep in mind it only reads what's in the carrier gas. (Which of course is oxygen. )

Could you somehow be unwittingly measuring dephlogisticated material and you are assuming that oxygen has been added?
I change out the oxygen tank when it is empty. Once again, sulfur and carbon would both release phlogiston and it would be impossible to figure out what element it came from. Not to mention a person can smell the SO2 coming out the back of the instrument.

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2014, 07:45:37 AM »
Perhaps oxygen somehow has a role in the process of dephogistication? 

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sokarul

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2014, 07:50:14 AM »
Perhaps oxygen somehow has a role in the process of dephogistication?
No, we know what it's role is.
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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2014, 07:53:01 AM »
Phlogiston? Seriously? The last time I heard that word was 11th Grade Physics! I looked up Wikipedia's well-written article on Phlogiston Theory in order to remind myself what Mr. Dart had taught us back then. JRoa, what is it w/ you? I'm no scientist, but even I know you're out to lunch on this. In the 17th Century, this made sense. But advances in science have shown that combustion can be better explained in different ways. Let me ask 1 question. If phlogiston exists as an actual element, where does it belong on the Periodic Table of the Elements, & why isn't it there? How is its absence explained?

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2014, 08:00:17 AM »
But advances in science have shown that combustion can be better explained in different ways.

Or, so you have been told, and since you never question anything, you blindly proclaim that it makes total sense to you.

Let me ask 1 question. If phlogiston exists as an actual element, where does it belong on the Periodic Table of the Elements, & why isn't it there? How is its absence explained?

I did not say it was an element.  My theory is that it is a combination of elements that change into other elements through the phlogistication process.   

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2014, 08:03:37 AM »
That is certainly not what the theory stated. The theory stated that phlogiston was an element. What is your justification for changing the theory on that point?

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2014, 08:05:39 AM »
Are you saying that theories can not possibly change over time? 

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2014, 08:11:47 AM »
I'm saying that in order to change one, you have to have a legitimate reason, that you can explain, to do so. If I wanted to suddenly suggest that in fact, alien life existed, I would have to demonstrate proof of that. If you wish to take a previously accepted theory & change it, you must demonstrate proof that your explanation was better than the previously accepted one.

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2014, 08:33:48 AM »
Yes, when things do not add up scientifically, I change my theory and try again.  Isn't that what your RE scientists do? 

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2014, 08:40:46 AM »
Yes, when things do not add up scientifically, I change my theory and try again.  Isn't that what your RE scientists do?
Yet you have no evidence for your theories.  What elements is it made of and please prove.

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2014, 08:41:34 AM »
Well, you haven't given reasons to accept the phlogiston theory @ all, let alone to tweak it.

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2014, 08:45:55 AM »
I constantly present evidence.  Just because you chose to ignore the evidence does not mean that it was not presented. 

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2014, 08:52:18 AM »
I constantly present evidence.  Just because you chose to ignore the evidence does not mean that it was not presented.
More like the evidence is wrong or just lacking.  Mystery substance made up of unknown elements changing to other elements...

Or even the old standard that the earth cannot be round and satellites don't exist, it's all a conspiracy when you can't explain how GPS or satellite TV works.  Despite measuring angles from dishes proving where the transmitter is.

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2014, 08:53:19 AM »
Demonstrate your evidence that phlogiston exists.

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Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2014, 09:00:47 AM »
Demonstrate your evidence that phlogiston exists.

Burn a match and release the Phlogiston within. 

Re: some questions on phlogiston
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2014, 09:02:11 AM »
What does this phlogiston look like?