God does not exist

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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #150 on: November 11, 2006, 11:56:19 AM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Such as a religion that says:
(1) We are predestined, and
(2) We have free will.


I think this is not a logical contradiction.  For one thing free will can be restricted and yet still exist.  If for some reason I could not choose not to wear read every day, but I could still choose everything else, I would still have free will.  The free will is simply not arbitrary in scope.

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(1) God can perceive things (this is sense data collection), and
(2) God does not have a body to sense things with


Also not a logical contradiction; we do not know the limits on what mechanisms of perception might exist.  It is inconsistent with our understanding of perception, but it is not itself internally inconsistent.

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(1) God is completely outside of nature--totally disconnected from it, and
(2) God influences nature


I think this is a straw man -- it's worded so that it's obviously inconsistent.  However if you say something fuzzier like what some religions actually say -- for example, "God transcends nature" or "God is not bound by natural laws" or "God's nature is not within the framework of nature that man can comprehend," then it's no longer inconsistent.

That said, I think that omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence are mutually exclusive, at least in terms of how humans understand benevolence; God may be benevolent in a way that humans cannot understand, but then it is inconsistent to refer to that quality of God as "benevolence" in the first place.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #151 on: November 11, 2006, 12:10:14 PM »
so basilcy your saying they dont work becaseu they controdict themselves? What about Christiantiy? Some of the bigest controdictions ive ever seen are ain the bible.
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PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

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ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

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1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
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God does not exist
« Reply #152 on: November 11, 2006, 12:12:25 PM »
Here is a logical contradiction:  "We are predestined to either go to heaven or hell according to God's will and pleasure, BUT, we have the free will to do the things that allow us into either heaven or hell."  That's a logical contradiction.  The predestined part suggests that the future is already determined a certain way according to the will of God; the free will part suggests that the future is undetermined and that we have the power to make the future in any of an infinite possibility of ways.  Those are mutually exclusive principles.

The argument you brought against the logical contradiction was that you can be predestined to read a certain book at a certain time, but that the clothes you decided to wear earlier that morning might have been chosen by your free will.  Although I would probably disagree with this, I don't need to right now.  It's necessary for me to stipulate that I'm talking about predestination and free will occurring at the same time and in the same respect (you're talking about different times and instances).

Traditionally, the idea of perception entails that there is some sort of sense data collection.  It is possible that God has some sort of body that he can sense things with (in the way we use the word 'sense').  However, if one were to claim that God does not have a body to sense things with, yet that he still senses things somehow, there would be a logical disconnect in the conversation.  Granted, it might be possible that God has some kind of property which allows this to happen, but since we don't know of such a property and since we can only speculate (and most importantly, since we define our words a certain way to mean a certain thing in regards to 'perceive' and 'sense' and then we turn around and try to say that these words mean something different to God), all this belief really yields is "Blah blah blah...I have no idea what I'm talking about..."

The third one might be a straw man.  But probably not.  The point of it is to show that somebody who believes that God is outside of nature yet that he is also inside of nature is logically inconsistent.
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God does not exist
« Reply #153 on: November 11, 2006, 12:15:57 PM »
but like i said, the bible kills itself

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wait... how many stalls of horses?
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KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.


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CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.


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to righteous or not?
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Ps.92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."


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Isa.57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."

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Judas died how?
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"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)


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"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #154 on: November 11, 2006, 12:32:26 PM »
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PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

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ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.


That's not contradictory at all.  "Money is the principle thing; therefore get lots of it."  "In much money there is much grief."  Possibly both true, no?

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1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."


I'm not sure what to do with that one without context.  However it could mean that the "I" in this case will bring about the destruction by showing the wise that in spite of all their wisdom, they still know only very little about what there really is to know.  There are some apocryphal accounts of Jesus making this point (and maybe some canonical ones as well) when he draws a circle in the sand, and then a larger one around it, and says: "Your knowledge is like this smaller circle, and mine is the larger: in knowing more, I know that there is even more for me to learn than for you."
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #155 on: November 11, 2006, 12:36:34 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Here is a logical contradiction:  "We are predestined to either go to heaven or hell according to God's will and pleasure, BUT, we have the free will to do the things that allow us into either heaven or hell."  That's a logical contradiction.


Okay, I agree, but I'd like to see a reference to a religion that preaches exactly that.

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However, if one were to claim that God does not have a body to sense things with, yet that he still senses things somehow, there would be a logical disconnect in the conversation.


Not a logical, but an epistemic one.  Basically we just don't know.  We definitely do not, however, definte "to perceive" as "to perceive with eyes, hands, etc."

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The third one might be a straw man.  But probably not.  The point of it is to show that somebody who believes that God is outside of nature yet that he is also inside of nature is logically inconsistent.


As with all of the alleged contradictions you listed, I do understand the point.  It's a straw man in that nobody who's thought about it really believes that God is inside and outside of nature simultaneously (at the same and in the same instance).
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #156 on: November 11, 2006, 12:42:03 PM »
Quote from: "The_Earth_Does_Not_Exist"
but like i said, the bible kills itself


I hardly think the examples provided show how the Bible "kills itself".

One is a misrecording of a number (how many people died in the Holocaust?  Just because people don't agree doesn't mean it didn't happen.  And the Nazis kept better records than Solomon I expect.)

One is two references from two different books; how do we know they refer to the same event?  Sounds to me like the first says, "At some special happy point in the future, P will be true." and the second says, "P is false at this moment in history, and nobody seems to care."

The last is two recordings of a story.  Stories are often misrecorded.  That doesn't mean that you can't learn something about the general sequence of events.  The gospels disagree in various ways but all describe similar events.

The Bible doesn't "kill itself", not based on the evidence you give.  Sorry.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #157 on: November 11, 2006, 12:57:23 PM »
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The last is two recordings of a story. Stories are often misrecorded. That doesn't mean that you can't learn something about the general sequence of events. The gospels disagree in various ways but all describe similar events.

well, if you use this mindset, then of course i cant prove the bible contradicts itself. The whole book is basically a collection of stories.
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One is two references from two different books; how do we know they refer to the same event?

ok, well i see your point, but i don't think we can deny that the bible does contradict itself.
Beast First?
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GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Man first?
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GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


Now, you will probably say something along the lines of a misrecording, but this still does not change the fact that the bible contradicts itself. Ok, i admit saying that it 'kills itself' is a bit harsh, so i retract that statement.
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
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God does not exist
« Reply #158 on: November 11, 2006, 12:58:55 PM »
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That's not contradictory at all. "Money is the principle thing; therefore get lots of it." "In much money there is much grief." Possibly both true, no?

ok, il give you that one
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
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God does not exist
« Reply #159 on: November 11, 2006, 01:03:20 PM »
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GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


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GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


They may be presented in different order, but it says nothing about which one actually came first.

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GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


I don't see the contradiction here.  If you include the next verse, it says of the beasts no suitable helper was found.
 captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

God does not exist
« Reply #160 on: November 11, 2006, 01:09:09 PM »
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GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

1. "God made the beast of the earth "
THEN
2. "God said, Let us make man in our image"

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GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

1. "It is not good that the man should be alone;"
^ this is showing that man is first
THEN
2. "God formed every beast of the field"... "and brought them unto Adam"
Adam was there before the beasts.

so, in the first quote, the order is Beast then Man, and in the second quote, the order is Man then Beast.
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #161 on: November 11, 2006, 01:13:39 PM »
Quote from: "The_Earth_Does_Not_Exist"
Now, you will probably say something along the lines of a misrecording, but this still does not change the fact that the bible contradicts itself. Ok, i admit saying that it 'kills itself' is a bit harsh, so i retract that statement.


If I may offer an alternative I think the statement, "The Bible says a whole whop of things that seem, upon reflection, unlikely to be true," is probably much more accurate and easier to defend.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #162 on: November 11, 2006, 01:18:11 PM »
ok, il go with that  :wink:
I actually hate going through the bible and trying to prove it wrong (etc)
like i mentioned before, the largest problem for me in religion is not the actual religions themselves, but the dilemma of which one is true (example: many people at this point in time are christian, but if you look at the old Roman Gods, lots of people followed them at one point in time. It could be that in 10000 years, no one will be christian, and will regard all Christians from the past the same way we regard the Romans who worshiped those gods)
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
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« Reply #163 on: November 11, 2006, 01:24:06 PM »
Erasmus, a Christian can believe that God predestined all of humanity to either heaven or hell prior to the creation of the world.  Yet they, at the same time, try to claim that all people have free will to become a Christian and get saved.  This is logically inconsistent, yet many Christians believe it to be so because both predestination and free will are supported by scripture.  That's why it's important.

As for the other two, I'll have to just get back to you on those later because:
(1) I don't have the will power to look it up
(2) I have to do some research for my Soviet Russia paper

If you want a source to a Christian website that says (1) we are predestined, yet (2) we have free will then ask and I'll look for one for you.  We've discussed this before though.
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Nomad

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God does not exist
« Reply #164 on: November 11, 2006, 01:35:19 PM »
Quote from: "The_Earth_Does_Not_Exist"
Quote
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

1. "God made the beast of the earth "
THEN
2. "God said, Let us make man in our image"

Quote
GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

1. "It is not good that the man should be alone;"
^ this is showing that man is first
THEN
2. "God formed every beast of the field"... "and brought them unto Adam"
Adam was there before the beasts.

so, in the first quote, the order is Beast then Man, and in the second quote, the order is Man then Beast.


Also, in Genesis 1:27 it says,

Quote from: "Genesis 1:27"
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Which implies that he made man and woman at the same time, while in Genesis 2, as we all know says,

Quote from: "Genesis 2:21-22"
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


Which implies that man was made first and then woman was made from man.

So which is which?  >.>
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Erasmus

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« Reply #165 on: November 11, 2006, 01:48:19 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Erasmus, a Christian can believe that God predestined all of humanity to either heaven or hell prior to the creation of the world.  Yet they, at the same time, try to claim that all people have free will to become a Christian and get saved.


I understand what you're saying, but I need to see some references that some religions preach exactly that.
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #166 on: November 11, 2006, 01:49:58 PM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
So which is which?  >.>


I am well-versed, but not particular interested, in this activity.  I agree that the Bible has some contradictions in it, but I don't think that they destroy the message of the Bible, or that they render the notion of religion in general as impossible.  That's what I'm trying to say.
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #167 on: November 11, 2006, 01:51:25 PM »
Quote from: "The_Earth_Does_Not_Exist"
the largest problem for me in religion is not the actual religions themselves, but the dilemma of which one is true


That is a more interesting point, and is relevant to the question of what religion is actually for.

Religion is actually for creating a tribal bond through mutual worship (my personal theory; no references will be provided).  Different tribes have different religions because if they didn't, they would, in some sense, be the same tribe.
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #168 on: November 11, 2006, 01:56:55 PM »
Quote from: "The_Earth_Does_Not_Exist"
the largest problem for me in religion is not the actual religions themselves, but the dilemma of which one is true


No one has ever explained to me why God wants me to believe in him.

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Nomad

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God does not exist
« Reply #169 on: November 11, 2006, 02:02:59 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "The_Earth_Does_Not_Exist"
the largest problem for me in religion is not the actual religions themselves, but the dilemma of which one is true


No one has ever explained to me why God wants me to believe in him.


Low self esteem?
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #170 on: November 11, 2006, 02:05:17 PM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "The_Earth_Does_Not_Exist"
the largest problem for me in religion is not the actual religions themselves, but the dilemma of which one is true


No one has ever explained to me why God wants me to believe in him.


Low self esteem?


Yes, God is insecure.

God does not exist
« Reply #171 on: November 11, 2006, 04:05:40 PM »
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
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dysfunction

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God does not exist
« Reply #172 on: November 11, 2006, 04:25:29 PM »
For an almighty, omnipotent, omniscient being, the Christian God certainly is petty, vindictive, small, irrelevant, superficial, weak, and limited.
the cake is a lie

God does not exist
« Reply #173 on: November 11, 2006, 05:55:13 PM »
Quote
For an almighty, omnipotent, omniscient being, the Christian God certainly is petty, vindictive, small, irrelevant, superficial, weak, and limited.[/quote
didnt Richard Dawkins say that?
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
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God does not exist
« Reply #174 on: November 11, 2006, 05:57:59 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
I understand what you're saying, but I need to see some references that some religions preach exactly that.


Christianity.

http://www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #175 on: November 11, 2006, 06:22:25 PM »
Quote from: "In the article Knight referenced, the author"
Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved.


Not, "God predetermines that certain individuals will be faithful."  Free will still allowed, contradiction avoided.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #176 on: November 11, 2006, 06:25:46 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Not, "God predetermines that certain individuals will be faithful." Free will still allowed, contradiction avoided.


The author wrote: "Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved."

If God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved, one cannot have the free will to get themseleves saved by being faithful.  I'm having trouble seeing where the disconnect in the conversation is occurring.
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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #177 on: November 11, 2006, 06:43:44 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
If God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved, one cannot have the free will to get themseleves saved by being faithful.  I'm having trouble seeing where the disconnect in the conversation is occurring.


If I am accused of a crime I have free will to hire a lawyer and try to get acquitted.  It doesn't mean I will.  The judge might by biased; he might have predetermined my guilt or innocence.

You need a reference that says or implies, "A person can affect their own salvation," and, "A person cannot affect their own salvation," for it to be contradictory.  Nowhere in that article does it say that a person can affect their own salvation without it having been determined beforehand by God that that person would be saved.  In fact it says, paraphrased, "If God selects you to be saved, you will automatically be faithful."

The article is telling people that they don't really have the freedom to be saved.  It doesn't touch on the freedom to pick one's nose or listen to certain music or whatever.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #178 on: November 11, 2006, 07:07:17 PM »
I think now I see the differences between what we're saying.  For the purpose of this conversation, let me define a term from my philosophy textbook:

Predestination--the belief that events are predetermined by some personal power (God)...if an event or action is predestined, it will happen no matter what.

Okay, so if the Bible says "God predestines whether or not we will be saved," and it also sends the message "You have the free will to become faithful--which will yield salvation (i.e. you have the free will to get salvation)," then there is a contradiction.  We are either predestined to be saved or not saved, or, we have the free will to affect our salvation.  Many Christians believe that they have the choice to either accept God into their lives or to shun God.  They believe that if they accept God into their lives (on account of their own free will), then they will be saved.  However, the Bible says that God has already decided who would be saved and who would not be saved (that is, he predestined that a long time ago and no human choice is going to change his plan).  To believe:
(1) God predestined salvation a long time ago and this cannot change, and
(2) Salvation is up for grabs through your own free will choice on whether or not you want to accept God

seems to be a logical contradiction.

Quote from: "Erasmus"
The article is telling people that they don't really have the freedom to be saved. It doesn't touch on the freedom to pick one's nose or listen to certain music or whatever.


Once again I think you are not paying attention to the "at the same time and in the same respect" clause I mentioned before.  This article is, indeed, telling people that they don't have the freedom to be saved--that salvation is already predestined.  Yet people who accept this also attempt to accept the notion that they have the free will to get themselves saved.  I've had a discussion with a student here on campus who accepts this and says "I don't know how it works... It's just the divine mystery of God and I take it on faith."  The problem here is that you either have the free will to accept God into your life and get your salvation or you don't.  The Bible seems to suggest both.  So many people accept both, arguing that it doesn't matter if we don't understand it.

As a closing note, I'd like to re-emphasize that you cannot be predestined to do something yet still have the free will to either do or not do that thing.  That's impossible, and I think we both know that.  Therefore anybody who believes in a God that predestines us to either salvation or non-salvation yet gives us free will to attain our salvation or not attain our salvation is believing in a God that is logically impossible.  There are Christians who believe in this type of God (like the one I mentioned--a friend of mine here) even though it is an impossible God.
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« Reply #179 on: November 11, 2006, 07:18:48 PM »
Well the only probalem with predestination is that one who believes in predestination can state that God is above everything and is truly all powerful, so he could just go against his own predestination.

I hope you understood what I was just trying to convey, that didn't come out quite as coherently as I hoped it would.
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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