God does not exist

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BOGWarrior89

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God does not exist
« Reply #120 on: November 07, 2006, 07:40:54 PM »
Quote from: "fathomak"
Quote
No, you can't. You could be a figment of our imagination, an alien, a robot, an unexplained atmospheric phenomenon ... the possibilites are endless.


That doesn't mean I don't exist.  All it means is I might not be human.


You could be the figment of some higher being's imagination.

God does not exist
« Reply #121 on: November 07, 2006, 08:15:33 PM »
Quote from: "Rossk #5!!"
Quote from: "troubadour"
If god exists, where is he? I don't see him anywhere. I haven't seen any definative scientific proof of him either. All I get are tall tails about god or gods or spirits from old books and other people, but none of them ever met god either, they just believe, without ever thinking that maybe, just maybe, there is no god. But no, there HAS to be! Why? Because I simply cannot believe otherwise, that is why.



Morons.


That's like saying that because you can't see your brain that it doesn't exist. But you just kind of know it's there, because somebody told you so, and when you think about it, it makes sense that way. It's the same way with God and the Christian religion.

Just because what people say here is very predictable, I will also point out that if you're still alive there's no way you can see your brain. You might see an x-ray or something, but I've also seen pictures of a round Earth, and most people here say they're fake, so your brain x-rays could be fake also.


no it's NOT the same thing fuckface. You can see your brain, you can touch it and feel it, it's in your head. Xrays and catscans are pictures of your actual brain. If you want to see it just crack your head open on something, hopefully you will. You can't see any god(s), because they don't exist. No pictures, no nothing. You can sit and pray and hope your whole stupid lifetime and you will STILL never see him.

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GeoGuy

God does not exist
« Reply #122 on: November 07, 2006, 08:17:18 PM »
Quote from: "troubadour"

no it's NOT the same thing f**kface. You can see your brain, you can touch it and feel it...


Although I certainly don't recommend it.

God does not exist
« Reply #123 on: November 07, 2006, 08:17:54 PM »
Quote from: "troubadour"
no it's NOT the same thing fuckface.


Whoa...calm down.

Quote from: "troubadour"
You can't see any god(s), because they don't exist. No pictures, no nothing. You can sit and pray and hope your whole stupid lifetime and you will STILL never see him.


Now supposing that there's a "creator" that isn't visible within our universe...
ooyakasha!

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Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
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God does not exist
« Reply #124 on: November 07, 2006, 08:18:02 PM »
Quote from: "GeoGuy"
Although I certainly don't recommend it.


I hear it can be rather stimulating.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #125 on: November 07, 2006, 08:34:12 PM »
Quote from: "fathomak"
blah blah blah and a few paragraphs of crap.


*yawn*


You forget that there are other social creatures besides humans that perform acts to impress the group such as being generous and such. how do you know that they don't have the same kind of feelings about so called "right" and "wrong" that we do? Morality has not a thing to do with god or religion in all actuality. It's just something that religious people have somehow managed to claim for their own, at least in the public eye. But anyone with a keen and skeptical mind can easily see why this this void. Creating arbitrary dogmatic rules and codes for people to live by? That's morality? What is so moral about herding into church every sunday? Or praying 5 times a day on your knee like a moron?

God does not exist
« Reply #126 on: November 07, 2006, 08:37:45 PM »
Quote from: "troubadour"
Creating arbitrary dogmatic rules and codes for people to live by? That's morality?


It might be that you're using "morality" interchangably with "ethics."  That which is moral according to a certain code need not be ethical.
ooyakasha!

God does not exist
« Reply #127 on: November 07, 2006, 08:40:52 PM »
Quote
You forget that there are other social creatures besides humans that perform acts to impress the group such as being generous and such. how do you know that they don't have the same kind of feelings about so called "right" and "wrong" that we do? Morality has not a thing to do with god or religion in all actuality. It's just something that religious people have somehow managed to claim for their own, at least in the public eye. But anyone with a keen and skeptical mind can easily see why this this void. Creating arbitrary dogmatic rules and codes for people to live by? That's morality? What is so moral about herding into church every sunday? Or praying 5 times a day on your knee like a moron?


From what I've heard, it's generally only humans and dolphins having sex for pleasure.  I figure any other animal trying to impress another would be for the purpose of getting a mate.  Animals tend to avoid extinction when possible.

I also don't think morality is something religious people have tried to claim as their own.  I don't think morality necessarily has to have any connection with religion at all.  All I said was that people use the sense of morality to help justify the existence of a higher being.

Never as far as I can tell did anyone equate morality to attending church and praying.  I don't know what made you think that.
 captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

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skeptical scientist

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God does not exist
« Reply #128 on: November 07, 2006, 08:59:21 PM »
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
Quote from: "skeptical_scientist"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
You can't prove anything exists, so stop trying.
I can prove that for any given number, there exists a larger prime number.


And if there exists a mathematical system that isn't designed that way?  Your claim doesn't allow for other systems, outside your comprehension.

I meant I could prove it's true within our system of mathematics. (I.e. given what we mean by the set of numbers, what we mean by prime, and what we mean by larger) Of course you could invent other systems if you wanted to, but why would you? There's a reason we have the one we do.
-David
E pur si muove!

God does not exist
« Reply #129 on: November 08, 2006, 05:31:38 AM »
Quote from: "fathomak"
Quote
You forget that there are other social creatures besides humans that perform acts to impress the group such as being generous and such. how do you know that they don't have the same kind of feelings about so called "right" and "wrong" that we do? Morality has not a thing to do with god or religion in all actuality. It's just something that religious people have somehow managed to claim for their own, at least in the public eye. But anyone with a keen and skeptical mind can easily see why this this void. Creating arbitrary dogmatic rules and codes for people to live by? That's morality? What is so moral about herding into church every sunday? Or praying 5 times a day on your knee like a moron?


From what I've heard, it's generally only humans and dolphins having sex for pleasure.  I figure any other animal trying to impress another would be for the purpose of getting a mate.  Animals tend to avoid extinction when possible.

I also don't think morality is something religious people have tried to claim as their own.  I don't think morality necessarily has to have any connection with religion at all.  All I said was that people use the sense of morality to help justify the existence of a higher being.

Never as far as I can tell did anyone equate morality to attending church and praying.  I don't know what made you think that.


So there needs to be a higher being because for the mostpart we try to be ethical in our treatment of other people? One has nothing to do with the other.

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beast

  • 2997
God does not exist
« Reply #130 on: November 08, 2006, 06:18:05 AM »
Quote from: "fathomak"


From what I've heard, it's generally only humans and dolphins having sex for pleasure.  


Completely false.  There are hundreds of examples of homosexual animals;

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

Mentions beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, penguins, ostriches, flamingos, macaques, bonobos and orangutans.


(OMG bibicul, I said something and backed it up with a source yet again!)

God does not exist
« Reply #131 on: November 08, 2006, 07:02:54 AM »
Quote
So there needs to be a higher being because for the mostpart we try to be ethical in our treatment of other people? One has nothing to do with the other.


I didn't say that either.
 captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

God does not exist
« Reply #132 on: November 08, 2006, 07:14:07 AM »
Quote
Completely false. There are hundreds of examples of homosexual animals;

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

Mentions beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, penguins, ostriches, flamingos, macaques, bonobos and orangutans.


(OMG bibicul, I said something and backed it up with a source yet again!)


I think we're starting to drift away from what the topic was supposed to be about.

We're talking about animals having moral codes, not gay sex.  The only reason I said anything about sex was because troubadour claimed that animals "...perform acts to impress the group such as being generous and such."  I think that's usually only to get a mate.  I doubt most animals would care whether or not they're being generous.  In other cases, it may be that they're sharing food so their offspring don't starve to death.
 captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
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God does not exist
« Reply #133 on: November 08, 2006, 07:34:53 AM »
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #134 on: November 08, 2006, 10:00:54 AM »
I never said any of this was true.  All I said was that morality has been used to justify the existence of a higher being.
 captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
God does not exist
« Reply #135 on: November 08, 2006, 10:04:34 AM »
Quote from: "fathomak"
I never said any of this was true.  All I said was that morality has been used to justify the existence of a higher being.


Sure sure... I'm just saying that there are at-least-as-reliable arguments for morality from a naturalistic perspective.  You know, just tossing it out on the table.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #136 on: November 08, 2006, 10:06:19 AM »
Quote
Sure sure... I'm just saying that there are at-least-as-reliable arguments for morality from a naturalistic perspective. You know, just tossing it out on the table.


  It felt like we were getting a little sidetracked, but yes, I agree with that.
 captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

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Ubuntu

  • 2392
God does not exist
« Reply #137 on: November 10, 2006, 07:07:30 PM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
I have my reason to believe in God, it just makes sense to me, if it doesn't to you...


So "I have a suspended belief in something not based on reason, because I have reached the conclusion that this something exists based on reason." I hope you see the contradiction here, and if you read this post, perhaps you will see the profound problem with the root of religious faith. There is no well demonstrated cognitive to believe in a god; faith springs from an emotional desire to believe something made up as truth. Chaos ensues.

Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "fathomak"
I never said any of this was true.  All I said was that morality has been used to justify the existence of a higher being.


Sure sure... I'm just saying that there are at-least-as-reliable arguments for morality from a naturalistic perspective.  You know, just tossing it out on the table.


If a belief in God made people moral, or happy, it would not be an argument for the existence of God. That makes no sense.

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Ubuntu

  • 2392
God does not exist
« Reply #138 on: November 10, 2006, 07:12:02 PM »
Quote from: "fathomak"
Quote
You forget that there are other social creatures besides humans that perform acts to impress the group such as being generous and such. how do you know that they don't have the same kind of feelings about so called "right" and "wrong" that we do? Morality has not a thing to do with god or religion in all actuality. It's just something that religious people have somehow managed to claim for their own, at least in the public eye. But anyone with a keen and skeptical mind can easily see why this this void. Creating arbitrary dogmatic rules and codes for people to live by? That's morality? What is so moral about herding into church every sunday? Or praying 5 times a day on your knee like a moron?


From what I've heard, it's generally only humans and dolphins having sex for pleasure.  I figure any other animal trying to impress another would be for the purpose of getting a mate.  Animals tend to avoid extinction when possible.


Dead wrong.


On the subject of religion, I'd like to announce two things

1) A middle-aged Canadian women was recently killed by a ceremonial snake bite in a church

2) Two students from my school (twins), have been forbidden by their parents to compete in a large regional cross country meet because it takes place on a Sunday, which we all know as the weekly Christian holiday. I'm not saying taking Sunday off is a bad thing, I'm just saying that their parents are very stupid.  :evil:

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Ubuntu

  • 2392
God does not exist
« Reply #139 on: November 10, 2006, 07:26:06 PM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
I don't attack atheism, I don't see the reason why you feel that attacking Christianity is so important, but whatever floats your boat.


Well, I think he can attack it for the sake of the attack... I don't believe anybody's viewpoints ought to be exempt from criticism, and I don't think people should ever "just agree to disagree".

That said, maybe he has a good reason for attacking Christianity.  Maybe he thinks it's dangerous to somebody, such as society as a whole, or religious individuals, and that therefore it behooves right-thinking people to put a stop to it.


I completely agree, the only thing is, we've been over the same ideas at least four or five times now, without getting anywhere, so we know it's not going to go anywhere... so what is the point?


If at first you don't succeed...

Perhaps one of these times something productive will come out.

With supernaturalism, the miracle of evolution is replaced by a Creationist magic trick, the annals of reality, with its confounding mystery and unfathomable beauty is warped into a human likeness, the mechanics of causality and mystified into a cloud of spiritual uncertainty, the practice of science is chained by unmovable assumptions, and the desire to stir a false boredom pushes away the truth - and real "magic" of the universe.

In any case, the supernatural can only be the unexplained natural.

'Every great movement must experience three stages: ridicule, discussion, adoption.' - John Stuart Mill

God does not exist
« Reply #140 on: November 10, 2006, 07:49:51 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "fathomak"
Quote
You forget that there are other social creatures besides humans that perform acts to impress the group such as being generous and such. how do you know that they don't have the same kind of feelings about so called "right" and "wrong" that we do? Morality has not a thing to do with god or religion in all actuality. It's just something that religious people have somehow managed to claim for their own, at least in the public eye. But anyone with a keen and skeptical mind can easily see why this this void. Creating arbitrary dogmatic rules and codes for people to live by? That's morality? What is so moral about herding into church every sunday? Or praying 5 times a day on your knee like a moron?


From what I've heard, it's generally only humans and dolphins having sex for pleasure.  I figure any other animal trying to impress another would be for the purpose of getting a mate.  Animals tend to avoid extinction when possible.


Dead wrong.


Damnit, why doesn't anyone ever read all of the posts?



EDIT:

Quote from: "Ubuntu"
If a belief in God made people moral, or happy, it would not be an argument for the existence of God. That makes no sense.


I think you're missing the point.
 captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

*

skeptical scientist

  • 1285
  • -2 Flamebait
God does not exist
« Reply #141 on: November 10, 2006, 08:54:56 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
If a belief in God made people moral, or happy, it would not be an argument for the existence of God. That makes no sense.

It would be an argument for the belief in the existence of god. You should believe in god, not because he exists, but because it's good for you. Now sit down and shut up, and take your vitamins!
-David
E pur si muove!

God does not exist
« Reply #142 on: November 10, 2006, 09:46:24 PM »
Quote from: "skeptical_scientist"
It would be an argument for the belief in the existence of god. You should believe in god, not because he exists, but because it's good for you.


That reminds me of pragmatism... or pragmaticism... one of those.
ooyakasha!

God does not exist
« Reply #143 on: November 10, 2006, 09:46:52 PM »
for me, it realy isnt the concept of a god that makes no sense. (it makes some scence, but not very much). The main reason i have problems with religion is, basicly which religion should i pick? Why should i be Christian (etc)? Personaly, the Roman gods make just as much scense as the Christian god.
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
DOT INFO

God does not exist
« Reply #144 on: November 10, 2006, 09:49:07 PM »
You have a good point about that.  Many theists will claim that there might exist a "God" (by whatever definition they use that word for), yet that most likely all of the versions of God previously thought of are wrong.  Indeed, many of the versions of God previously thought of are impossible.
ooyakasha!

God does not exist
« Reply #145 on: November 10, 2006, 09:59:10 PM »
Quote
Indeed, many of the versions of God previously thought of are impossible.

you do realise, that if you take a step back and look at any religion, they are all just as possible/impossible as eachother. The only things that dont fit here are things like the Flying Spaghetti Monster (etc) (you know what i mean).
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
DOT INFO

God does not exist
« Reply #146 on: November 10, 2006, 10:54:26 PM »
Well, there are religions that espouse characteristics of God that are logically impossible.
ooyakasha!

*

skeptical scientist

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God does not exist
« Reply #147 on: November 11, 2006, 06:42:22 AM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Well, there are religions that espouse characteristics of God that are logically impossible.

Such as?
-David
E pur si muove!

God does not exist
« Reply #148 on: November 11, 2006, 09:29:00 AM »
Quote from: "skeptical_scientist"
Such as?


Such as a religion that says:
(1) We are predestined, and
(2) We have free will.

or

(1) God can perceive things (this is sense data collection), and
(2) God does not have a body to sense things with

or

(1) God is completely outside of nature--totally disconnected from it, and
(2) God influences nature
ooyakasha!

God does not exist
« Reply #149 on: November 11, 2006, 10:51:35 AM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
I don't attack atheism, I don't see the reason why you feel that attacking Christianity is so important, but whatever floats your boat.


Well, I think he can attack it for the sake of the attack... I don't believe anybody's viewpoints ought to be exempt from criticism, and I don't think people should ever "just agree to disagree".

That said, maybe he has a good reason for attacking Christianity.  Maybe he thinks it's dangerous to somebody, such as society as a whole, or religious individuals, and that therefore it behooves right-thinking people to put a stop to it.


I completely agree, the only thing is, we've been over the same ideas at least four or five times now, without getting anywhere, so we know it's not going to go anywhere... so what is the point?


If at first you don't succeed...

Perhaps one of these times something productive will come out.

With supernaturalism, the miracle of evolution is replaced by a Creationist magic trick, the annals of reality, with its confounding mystery and unfathomable beauty is warped into a human likeness, the mechanics of causality and mystified into a cloud of spiritual uncertainty, the practice of science is chained by unmovable assumptions, and the desire to stir a false boredom pushes away the truth - and real "magic" of the universe.

In any case, the supernatural can only be the unexplained natural.

'Every great movement must experience three stages: ridicule, discussion, adoption.' - John Stuart Mill


The only "productive" thing that could come is you being more accepting toward others beliefs, and not being so stubborn in something that noone can ever know for certain.
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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