God does not exist

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #330 on: November 25, 2006, 02:15:45 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Therefore it is not necessary to have those beliefs to practice science.


Uhhh... yes it is.  If you do not accept the existence of matter/energy and its measurability, you cannot begin to measure it (i.e. practice science).  There has to be a starting point for any methodology (axioms).  Science has axioms just like any other methodology.


No, absolutely not. Science is the philosophy that works using the thinking "if our theories are true..." Such as, "if fire exists, and if we can attain knowledge of fire, and if we can test it by inserting our hand in it, and if our hand exists...

...and we insert our hand into the fire and receive a "hot" sensation...

...then we can conclude that fire, in theory, is hot."

God does not exist
« Reply #331 on: November 25, 2006, 02:38:32 PM »
Oh, sorry Ubuntu.  I didn't realize you were redefining the methodology of science to be something other than what it is.  Methodologies have to have a starting point (axioms) and science has them.  In order to play the game of science you must first believe in matter/energy.  But you can redefine science all you want and try to make it a non-methodology.  Heck if I care.
ooyakasha!

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #332 on: November 25, 2006, 04:12:05 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
In order to play the game of science you must first believe in matter/energy.


If that were true, that would mean to be a Devil's Advocate I would have to actually believe the argument I was advocating and it would be impossible for anyone to be both a scientist and a philosopher.

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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #333 on: November 25, 2006, 05:38:49 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
I don't believe that matter/energy necessarily exists or that certain or real knowledge can be extracted from tests on it, and yet I practice meaningful science almost daily in the school lab.


This is a very silly viewpoint.  You're so caught up in the whole "existence" notion that you've ignored the obvious: stuff exists, if not "in the world" then at least in your solipsistic imaginary universe.  If you can't tell the difference, then I guess they're not different any important way.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #334 on: November 25, 2006, 06:27:54 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
I don't believe that matter/energy necessarily exists or that certain or real knowledge can be extracted from tests on it, and yet I practice meaningful science almost daily in the school lab.


This is a very silly viewpoint.  You're so caught up in the whole "existence" notion that you've ignored the obvious: stuff exists, if not "in the world" then at least in your solipsistic imaginary universe.  If you can't tell the difference, then I guess they're not different any important way.


It's the same way you can play Ouija without believing it... it's experimental. The same is not true for believing something... there is no way to practice belief without believing... prayer and rituals yes, but not faith.

Or perhaps it is more like when I use Tarrot cards to predict my friends futures and give them a line about "electrical pulses from the brain to the cards on the quantum scale" to observe their wide-eyed reactions when I read the cards... xD

God does not exist
« Reply #335 on: November 25, 2006, 09:47:56 PM »
If you do not accept the existence of matter/energy, yet you do experiments to measure matter/energy, the results cannot be helpful to you unless you accept its existence.  You cannot reap the benefits of a methodology that, in its axioms, takes the existence of matter/energy to be self-evidently true, while denying the very existence of that which yielded the results in the first place.
ooyakasha!

God does not exist
« Reply #336 on: November 26, 2006, 06:26:31 AM »
i think that since god is a mirror image of the guy that smoked weed in jerusalem some thousand years ago we should think about the apple of truth since apples have known the truth a long time because apples are higher beings.

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #337 on: November 26, 2006, 03:33:07 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
If you do not accept the existence of matter/energy, yet you do experiments to measure matter/energy, the results cannot be helpful to you unless you accept its existence.  You cannot reap the benefits of a methodology that, in its axioms, takes the existence of matter/energy to be self-evidently true, while denying the very existence of that which yielded the results in the first place.


Of course you can reap benefits! Even if you were knowingly in the Matrix and knew nothing around you existed, you could still seek to increase your own happiness with digital pleasures.

God does not exist
« Reply #338 on: November 26, 2006, 03:53:29 PM »
Ubuntu, I think I see the problem you're encountering in this whole methodology business.  You're saying that there are no axioms in the methodology of science (that is, there is nothing that scientists must take on faith before proceeding).  Well, getting around the fact that you're wrong, I can now see that you're essentially just trying to re-word the story in a way that makes it seem like you're right.  Before I counter what you're arguing, I'll reiterate that in order to play a game of football, you must first take it on faith that the football actually exists.  You don't go play football thinking "Well, if this football actually does exist, then I think it would be travelling along this trajectory to point B where I'm supposed to catch it in 4.35 seconds... if it existed."  Instead, you temporarily accept the existence of the football (even if you do not know that it exists in fundamental reality) so you can play the game of football.  Same goes for science.  When you're going to play the game of science and try to measure matter/energy in the universe, you must (at least temporarily) accept the existence of that which you are measuring.  Otherwise you wouldn't be measuring anything at all.

What you're trying to say is that scientists need not always accept the necessary existence of matter/energy (and its measurability) in order to play the game of science.  Well, yeah.  In order for me to operate within the methodology of Christianity, I must accept the existence of God and the Bible as the word of God--even if ten minutes later I want to stop playing that game.  For the time, if I do not accept the existence of God, then I'm not playing the game of Christianity at all.  Same goes for science.  If I want to play the game of science, I'd first have to accept on faith the fact that stuff actually exists for me to conduct scientific studies with.  If I don't, I'm not playing the game of science at all.  But if I do accept that axiom from the beginning, and proceed to play by the rules of the methodology and come to conclusions within the methodology of science, then I have played the game of science.  However, ten minutes later I can stop playing that game and no longer accept the existence of the stuff I just did.

What you're saying does not change the fact that science has axioms.  Whether you accept these axioms as true all the time doesn't matter.  That's like defining the Christian methodology as "Well, if God did exist, and if the Bible was the word of God, then..."  However, that's only the beginning step of the methodology.  In order to become a Christian for a little while, you must fully accept that which is being put forth as an axiom and then proceed.
ooyakasha!

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #339 on: November 26, 2006, 04:09:39 PM »
Knight, please address why I can play Ouija and Tarrot without believing that the supposed forces that drive them exist.

God does not exist
« Reply #340 on: November 26, 2006, 04:17:18 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Knight, please address why I can play Ouija and Tarrot without believing that the supposed forces that drive them exist.


Hmmm... let me think very hard on this and get back to you

***(ten seconds later)***

Do you accept the existence of the Ouija board and the Tarot cards before you play?  If not, then I'll go ahead and tentatively state that you aren't playing those games at all.

But you want to know about the actual "supernatural forces" that make the games special.  If indeed this is a necessary axiom to the games (which I've never played) then I'll again inform you that if you do not temporarily accept the existence of the axioms (even if it's something that you'd never otherwise consider believing in) then you cannot play the game at all.  You cannot be a Christian without (at least temporarily) believing in the existence of God just like you cannot be a scientist without temporarily accepting the existence of that which you are studying.  Just like you cannot play football without first accepting the existence of the football.
ooyakasha!

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #341 on: November 26, 2006, 05:11:49 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Just like you cannot play football without first accepting the existence of the football.


If it is at any instant possible to doubt the existence of the football, there is no reason why this couldn't be during the game.

God does not exist
« Reply #342 on: November 26, 2006, 05:44:40 PM »
Let me ask you, Ubuntu:  How does one deny the existence of the football and play the game of football at the same time?  Am I the only one who believes this sounds silly?
ooyakasha!

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #343 on: November 26, 2006, 06:01:31 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Let me ask you, Ubuntu:  How does one deny the existence of the football and play the game of football at the same time?


The same way you deny the existence of the football any other time.

God does not exist
« Reply #344 on: November 26, 2006, 06:07:24 PM »
When you are playing football, you do not deny the existence of the football. When you're in the middle of a game and you decide to deny the football's existence, you stop playing football.  Then you can resume when you once again accept the football's existence.
ooyakasha!

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #345 on: November 26, 2006, 06:10:08 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
When you are playing football, you do not deny the existence of the football. When you're in the middle of a game and you decide to deny the football's existence, you stop playing football.  Then you can resume when you once again accept the football's existence.


This seems like a dogmatic statement rather than a reasonable one. Why would you stop playing football just because the football is an illusion, and does not exist?

God does not exist
« Reply #346 on: November 26, 2006, 06:18:54 PM »
How does one play football while denying that it exists Ubuntu?  By denying that the football exists I'm also referring to the phenomenological existence of the football (i.e. any sensing of the phenomenological football would cease to exist).  You would not be able to see the ball, feel the ball, throw the ball, catch the ball, etc. because it would not exist.  Just like when you're playing the game of atheism you cannot sense the character God.  But anyway, this conversation is beginning to get repetitive.  I think you're carrying it on just for the sake of annoying me  :?
ooyakasha!

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #347 on: November 26, 2006, 06:27:34 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
How does one play football while denying that it exists Ubuntu?  By denying that the football exists I'm also referring to the phenomenological existence of the football (i.e. any sensing of the phenomenological football would cease to exist).  You would not be able to see the ball, feel the ball, throw the ball, catch the ball, etc. because it would not exist.  Just like when you're playing the game of atheism you cannot sense the character God.  But anyway, this conversation is beginning to get repetitive.  I think you're carrying it on just for the sake of annoying me  :?


It's not helping that you do not know what denying existence means.

God does not exist
« Reply #348 on: November 26, 2006, 06:29:35 PM »
What does it mean to you, Ubuntu?
ooyakasha!

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #349 on: November 26, 2006, 06:33:59 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
What does it mean to you, Ubuntu?


Denying Existence: Believing that something does not exist.

Please note that Solipsists still interact with the Universe.

God does not exist
« Reply #350 on: November 26, 2006, 06:49:20 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Denying Existence: Believing that something does not exist.


And just to get this straight, it's your claim that scientists can deny the existence of that which they are measuring.  Doesn't that logically necessitate the non-existence of the measurements they are taking of a non-existent thing?

Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Please note that Solipsists still interact with the Universe.


Noted.  However, a solipsist does not believe he/she is interacting with the Universe because a solipsist denies the existence of that which you call "Universe."  Instead, he/she believes that everything is a construct of his/her own mind, and thus, can only be interacting with his/her own mind.  Yet to you, a solipsist might actually be interacting with the universe and just not believing that he/she is.

Anyway, I'll think more hardly about this topic and perhaps ask my professor for you tomorrow.  What question should I ask him about it?  Maybe: "Is it possible to be a Christian while denying the existence of God?" or "Is it possible to be an atheist while denying the non-existence of God?" or "Is it possible to play football while denying the existence of the football and the football field?"  Take your pick or suggest another and I'll maybe ask him if I find a chance tomorrow.  It might be that I'm messing something up in this discussion by not paying enough attention to what you're saying.  I might be missing the point of what you're talking about.  But we'll see.
ooyakasha!

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #351 on: November 26, 2006, 06:57:27 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Denying Existence: Believing that something does not exist.


And just to get this straight, it's your claim that scientists can deny the existence of that which they are measuring.  Doesn't that logically necessitate the non-existence of the measurements they are taking of a non-existent thing?


No, as a measurement is a number, and numbers exist within your mind.

Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Please note that Solipsists still interact with the Universe.


Quote from: "Knight"
Instead, he/she believes that everything is a construct of his/her own mind, and thus, can only be interacting with his/her own mind. Yet to you, a solipsist might actually be interacting with the universe and just not believing that he/she is.


This works perfectly for the football case.

Quote from: "Knight"
"Is it possible to play football while denying the existence of the football and the football field?"


This is the only one I would answer affirmatively to.

God does not exist
« Reply #352 on: November 26, 2006, 07:43:59 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
No, as a measurement is a number, and numbers exist within your mind.


The tree does not exist; but the tree is thirty eight feet tall, brown, has green leaves, absorbs CO2 and H20, etc.  However, the measurement "feet" does not exist, the colors "green" and "brown" do not exist, CO2 and H20 do not exist.  But the CO2 on earth is composed of two parts of oxygen and one part of carbon while the H20 on earth is composed of two parts of hydrogen and one part of oxygen.  However, oxygen, carbon, and hydrogen do not exist.  And the nonsense conversation goes on and on and on...

Quote from: "Ubuntu"
This is the only one I would answer affirmatively to.


Then I guess this will be the one I'll ask him (also the one about the axioms of science).  Perhaps he'll be able to explain it better than I can.
ooyakasha!

God does not exist
« Reply #353 on: November 27, 2006, 11:35:43 AM »
I talked to my professor and the conversation went something like this:

ME: "A friend of mine claims that it is possible to play football while denying the existence of the football."

HIM: "I have no idea what he is talking about." *starts to walk away*

ME: "Well, I think he's saying that the football doesn't necessarily exist in fundamental reality."

HIM: "Oh, yes.  He may be playing some kind of mind game."

ME: "So... what do you think?"

HIM: "Most likely he is defining existence in a different way than has been established by philosophers."

Basically, it might just be that we're talking about two different things here.  You're referring to "that which exists in fundamental reality" and I'm referring to "that which exists."  If you conceive of the football at all, then it necessarily exists (even if only intra-mentally).  My question to you is, what does extramental existence add to the existence of a thing?  Philosophers have established that intramental and extramental existence of a thing do not add or detract to it's existence--they only clarify location of existence.

If you attempt to deny that the football exists, you must essentially be saying: "This football does not exist."  But by virtue of the fact that you're referring to something (i.e. the football), it must exist because it has been conceived.  It is impossible to claim that the phenomenological football does not exist, because once you conceive of that which you are giong to deny the existence of, it necessarily exists (intramentally).

Anyway, I've found that I have less of a grasp on this subject than he does and I can't remember everything from our conversation.  But essentially he told me that the question I can ask to proceed is the one I asked (the one above about existence and its intra and extra mental properties).  Other than that, I'm beginning to get so lost in the conversation that I cannot seem to dig through all this wording and get to the core of what we're talking about.  I'll ask that question and maybe proceed from there.  Otherwise, I'll be forced to stop the conversation because I can't figure out what the heck is being said anymore.  Anyway, what do you think about the existence question?
ooyakasha!

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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #354 on: November 27, 2006, 12:13:35 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Philosophers have established that intramental and extramental existence of a thing do not add or detract to it's existence--they only clarify location of existence.


Now you're playing games: word games, at least.  "In my head" vs. "In the world" is a different kind of location from "on the left" vs. "on the right", etc.  You can't "clarify the location of existence" in the sense of "in my head" vs. "in the world" without adding something to the existence of that object.

And I don't think philosophers have established anything, really, especially not on this level.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #355 on: November 27, 2006, 01:19:44 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
"In my head" vs. "In the world" is a different kind of location from "on the left" vs. "on the right", etc.


How is it different?  Keep in mind that I never said "In my head" (I said something more along the lines of "intramental").

Quote from: "Erasmus"
You can't "clarify the location of existence" in the sense of "in my head" vs. "in the world" without adding something to the existence of that object.


"In my head" is different than "intramental," as far as I'm concerned.  I use "intramental" to describe a conception of consciousness, whereas "in my head" refers to a specific left-right-up-down location.

I've gone through this with you before, I believe.  What difference does it make whether or not something is extramental?  The only thing we know for sure that exists is thinking itself.  "Things" do not necessarily exist outside of consciuosness.  So really, the things that exist are those that are conceived.

Quote from: "Erasmus"
And I don't think philosophers have established anything, really, especially not on this level.


Okay *shrug*
ooyakasha!

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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #356 on: November 27, 2006, 01:31:32 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
"In my head" is different than "intramental," as far as I'm concerned.  I use "intramental" to describe a conception of consciousness, whereas "in my head" refers to a specific left-right-up-down location.


I think that it's pretty clear that what I meant by "in my head" is the same as what you mean by "intramental".  Mine just doesn't sound so fancy.

Quote
I've gone through this with you before, I believe.  What difference does it make whether or not something is extramental?  The only thing we know for sure that exists is thinking itself.  "Things" do not necessarily exist outside of consciuosness.  So really, the things that exist are those that are conceived.


Sure, things don't necessarily exist outside.  That doesn't mean it's not useful to talk about them as though they do, and furthermore, that it's not pointless to suppose they're not.  If it is the case that everything I perceive is in fact "intramental", then I can just redefine "reality" to be everything I perceive, and then continue about my business.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #357 on: November 27, 2006, 01:51:36 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Sure, things don't necessarily exist outside. That doesn't mean it's not useful to talk about them as though they do, and furthermore, that it's not pointless to suppose they're not.


When you go about acting as if things do exist outside of consciousness, what exactly are you referring to?  I mean, in order for something to exist, it must have defining properties.  In order to have defining properties, there must be something that defines the object.  If it is outside of consciousness, what is the defining principle?  Sometimes people solve this by saying "god is the defining principle of things."  How do you solve this?

Quote from: "Erasmus"
If it is the case that everything I perceive is in fact "intramental", then I can just redefine "reality" to be everything I perceive, and then continue about my business.


Okay.
ooyakasha!

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Erasmus

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God does not exist
« Reply #358 on: November 27, 2006, 01:54:28 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
When you go about acting as if things do exist outside of consciousness, what exactly are you referring to?


Right now I'm taking location in space and time as the defining property for objects existing outside of my consciousness.  You have a location in space and time if and only if you exist outside of my consciousness.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God does not exist
« Reply #359 on: November 27, 2006, 02:20:29 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
When you're going to play the game of science and try to measure matter/energy in the universe, you must (at least temporarily) accept the existence of that which you are measuring. Otherwise you wouldn't be measuring anything at all.

What you're trying to say is that scientists need not always accept the necessary existence of matter/energy (and its measurability) in order to play the game of science. Well, yeah. In order for me to operate within the methodology of Christianity, I must accept the existence of God and the Bible as the word of God--even if ten minutes later I want to stop playing that game.


Not true.  One does not have to accept that something exists in order to test for it.  

You define expectations and test for them.  For example, if I capture bubbles rising up from a fluid and want to see if they were hydrogen, I do not have to "believe" Hydrogen is in the tube, I know that if there  is hyrdogen in the tube I can place a glowing ember in it and it will explode.

There is no act of faith here.  Observation that a specific result will occur under certain circumstances, and an attempt to create those circumstances.  The only "faith" is that there is a limited causuality -  that hydrogen will react in a certain way, everytime.