Samuel Birley Rowbotham - Academic Qualifications

Quote from: Starman on April 19, 2014, 05:17:31 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 19, 2014, 05:11:22 PM

If you want to know all that information you're free to use your own checklist. You guys seem to think there should be someone here at your beck and call at all times.

You guys are also quick to bitch about jroa derailing the thread, but all you've done is complain that jroa hasn't provided you with information you desperately want. Get it yourself!

Sounds like a plan. If there is no information found that means that he is a fraud. It is that simple.

Two things have been established:
His headstone says he has 2 doctorates.
He wrote under the (possible pseudonym) Doctor Samuel Birley Rowbotham.

If you would not like to consider these strong evidences, that's fine.
However, I have yet to see any evidence presented by you RE enthusiasts that he may not be who he claims.

Given the above, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Wrong, according to the FE story, his headstone was DEFACED by his wife, to say he has 2 doctorates. Now I can't find any information to sustain this, but it would indicate to me, that the engraver was unwilling to put that information on the stone directly.

Quote from: th3rm0m3t3r0 on April 20, 2014, 08:16:57 AM

Quote from: Starman on April 19, 2014, 05:17:31 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 19, 2014, 05:11:22 PM

If you want to know all that information you're free to use your own checklist. You guys seem to think there should be someone here at your beck and call at all times.

You guys are also quick to bitch about jroa derailing the thread, but all you've done is complain that jroa hasn't provided you with information you desperately want. Get it yourself!

Sounds like a plan. If there is no information found that means that he is a fraud. It is that simple.

Two things have been established:
His headstone says he has 2 doctorates.
He wrote under the (possible pseudonym) Doctor Samuel Birley Rowbotham.

If you would not like to consider these strong evidences, that's fine.
However, I have yet to see any evidence presented by you RE enthusiasts that he may not be who he claims.

Given the above, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Wrong, according to the FE story, his headstone was DEFACED by his wife, to say he has 2 doctorates. Now I can't find any information to sustain this, but it would indicate to me, that the engraver was unwilling to put that information on the stone directly.

Who said that?
Also, if you can't find any information to sustain this idea, why would you believe it?
I would assume it's because of your "the Earth is round" bias.
Why are you people going to great lengths to try to discredit Rowbotham?
I mean, even if he wasn't a doctor, why should that even matter?

I never heard that story before. It's possible that happened, though.

I never heard that story before. It's possible that happened, though.

I'm not sure where they get these ideas.
It seems most RE enthusiasts just take anything any FE enthusiast says to be absolute FE doctrine, and that is just not the case.

I know, jeesh!  I've explained to some of them several times that there are people who show up here who are RE pretending to be FE because they think it's funny.

This might help:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=dfl&GRid=7368594

Yeah, that sounds like more made up BS.  These people come up with all kinds of crud and try to pass it off as some kind of evidence. 

Quote from: RandomREalist on April 20, 2014, 09:03:37 AM

Quote from: th3rm0m3t3r0 on April 20, 2014, 08:16:57 AM

Quote from: Starman on April 19, 2014, 05:17:31 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 19, 2014, 05:11:22 PM

If you want to know all that information you're free to use your own checklist. You guys seem to think there should be someone here at your beck and call at all times.

You guys are also quick to bitch about jroa derailing the thread, but all you've done is complain that jroa hasn't provided you with information you desperately want. Get it yourself!

Sounds like a plan. If there is no information found that means that he is a fraud. It is that simple.

Two things have been established:
His headstone says he has 2 doctorates.
He wrote under the (possible pseudonym) Doctor Samuel Birley Rowbotham.

If you would not like to consider these strong evidences, that's fine.
However, I have yet to see any evidence presented by you RE enthusiasts that he may not be who he claims.

Given the above, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Wrong, according to the FE story, his headstone was DEFACED by his wife, to say he has 2 doctorates. Now I can't find any information to sustain this, but it would indicate to me, that the engraver was unwilling to put that information on the stone directly.

Who said that?
Also, if you can't find any information to sustain this idea, why would you believe it?
I would assume it's because of your "the Earth is round" bias.
Why are you people going to great lengths to try to discredit Rowbotham?
I mean, even if he wasn't a doctor, why should that even matter?

Because it makes sense, there's no round earth bias on this. If I had any person who claimed to be a Dr, that I didnt personally know was a Dr for fact, had to have their grave defaced by someone else, then I'd be suspect that they were actually a dr.

As to who said it, i'm still looking, I think it was in the thread that preceded this one that Ski wanted a new thread made from.

Quote from: th3rm0m3t3r0 on April 20, 2014, 09:14:10 AM

Quote from: RandomREalist on April 20, 2014, 09:03:37 AM

Quote from: th3rm0m3t3r0 on April 20, 2014, 08:16:57 AM

Quote from: Starman on April 19, 2014, 05:17:31 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 19, 2014, 05:11:22 PM

If you want to know all that information you're free to use your own checklist. You guys seem to think there should be someone here at your beck and call at all times.

You guys are also quick to bitch about jroa derailing the thread, but all you've done is complain that jroa hasn't provided you with information you desperately want. Get it yourself!

Sounds like a plan. If there is no information found that means that he is a fraud. It is that simple.

Two things have been established:
His headstone says he has 2 doctorates.
He wrote under the (possible pseudonym) Doctor Samuel Birley Rowbotham.

If you would not like to consider these strong evidences, that's fine.
However, I have yet to see any evidence presented by you RE enthusiasts that he may not be who he claims.

Given the above, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Wrong, according to the FE story, his headstone was DEFACED by his wife, to say he has 2 doctorates. Now I can't find any information to sustain this, but it would indicate to me, that the engraver was unwilling to put that information on the stone directly.

Who said that?
Also, if you can't find any information to sustain this idea, why would you believe it?
I would assume it's because of your "the Earth is round" bias.
Why are you people going to great lengths to try to discredit Rowbotham?
I mean, even if he wasn't a doctor, why should that even matter?

Because it makes sense, there's no round earth bias on this. If I had any person who claimed to be a Dr, that I didnt personally know was a Dr for fact, had to have their grave defaced by someone else, then I'd be suspect that they were actually a dr.

As to who said it, i'm still looking, I think it was in the thread that preceded this one that Ski wanted a new thread made from.

Well, as I am unable to find any source for that claim, I am going to be forced to reject it.
So there is still more evidence for him being a doctor than the contrary.

Years back any charlatan can say they were a doctor and nobody would challenge it. Today you can't do that. It won't take long to show your colors.

Years back any charlatan can say they were a doctor and nobody would challenge it. Today you can't do that. It won't take long to show your colors.

Who said that?
Also, if you can't find any information to sustain this idea, why would you believe it?
I would assume it's because of your "the Earth is round" bias.
Why are you people going to great lengths to try to discredit Rowbotham?
I mean, even if he wasn't a doctor, why should that even matter?

Well, as I am unable to find any source for that claim, I am going to be forced to reject it.
So there is still more evidence for him being a doctor than the contrary.

My points both remain valid.

Even the newspapers and his academic colleges referred to him as doctor.  The people who debated against him often referred to him as doctor.

Even the newspapers and his academic colleges referred to him as doctor.  The people who debated against him often referred to him as doctor.

That does not mean he was. Like some here have not found any evidence to say so.

Don't you think it would have been easy to discredit him back in his day?  A simple letter to his University could have done that.  Yet, we find no evidence that anyone was able to do this.  Seems a little straight forward to me. 

Don't you think it would have been easy to discredit him back in his day?  A simple letter to his University could have done that.  Yet, we find no evidence that anyone was able to do this.  Seems a little straight forward to me.

Even if someone did discredit him in the day who is going to listen and care. Today things are different with the internet.

If he wasn't a doctor then how did he discover and administer the healing effects of free phosphorus?

Even the newspapers and his academic colleges referred to him as doctor.  The people who debated against him often referred to him as doctor.

What academic colleges referred to him as doctor ? 
The only reference seems to point to The University of Edinburgh and they have reported that they have no record of him ?
Are there some other academic colleges that refer to him as doctor ?

Also many times ago in the USA  there were those early "snake oil salesmen" who were little more than traveling salesmen and and called themselves "Professors". They usually traveled in places where people were less educated and the people just accepted that they were professors. The character in the movie "The Wizard of Oz" who later became "The Wizard" in the story was typical.

It seems that Rowbotham at least presented his debates to some audiences of more or less uneducated persons.

Quote from: jroa on April 20, 2014, 02:45:18 PM

Don't you think it would have been easy to discredit him back in his day?  A simple letter to his University could have done that.  Yet, we find no evidence that anyone was able to do this.  Seems a little straight forward to me.

Even if someone did discredit him in the day who is going to listen and care. Today things are different with the internet.

People used to try to discredit him all the time. You would think that one of them would have tried to discredit him as a doctor, but no such documentation or evidence of this exists. If they tried, it was to no avail, just as you are doing right now.

Quote from: jroa on April 20, 2014, 02:38:05 PM

Even the newspapers and his academic colleges referred to him as doctor.  The people who debated against him often referred to him as doctor.

What academic colleges referred to him as doctor ? 
The only reference seems to point to The University of Edinburgh and they have reported that they have no record of him ?
Are there some other academic colleges that refer to him as doctor ?

Also many times ago in the USA  there were those early "snake oil salesmen" who were little more than traveling salesmen and and called themselves "Professors". They usually traveled in places where people were less educated and the people just accepted that they were professors. The character in the movie "The Wizard of Oz" who later became "The Wizard" in the story was typical.

It seems that Rowbotham at least presented his debates to some audiences of more or less uneducated persons.

So those people exist, ergo Rowbotham was one of those people?

The UK, like the USA, in the 19th Century was a bit looser w/ such titles. I have found no evidence that Parallax was a PhD or an MD in the sense of having attended any university. He led an Owenite colony, where, according to Garwood, he was unfairly accused in a sexual scandal. After this, "...he reinvented himself as an itinerant socialist lecturer and then as 'Dr Birley Ph.D.', practising in Manchester, Sheffield and other northern towns." ('Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea', by Christine Garwood, ch. 2, Nook edition. Original copyright 2007). The fact that he called himself 'Dr. Birley' raises a question, since that was his middle name, not his surname. Any university would presumably have wanted his full name. But ultimately, the point is not relevant. Whatever his title, & I don't see anywhere that he ever personally claimed the title MD, his experiments, & their validity (or lack thereof) are what's important. All reputable scientists today reject the Bedford Level Experiments & associated

activities as a case of severely misinterpreted data. If FET has nothing more to go on than 133 yr old misused data, its case is pretty weak. I mean, seriously. Would you rely on 133 yr old data for anything else? Someone mentioned medical treatment. Would you rely on treatment that old if you were ill? FET should be held to the same standards as any other academic discipline. EDIT Please note. I'm texting from a dumbphone w/ space limitations on characters & spaces. My posts may be broken into 2 or 3 parts for that reason.

Dr. Birleys was used for the name for his soda pop.  Dr. Pepper was invented around the same time.  Do you think the inventor really had the surname Pepper? 

Update: Reply to inquiry to University of Edinburgh:

"Thank you for your queries received on the 15th and 18th on Samuel Rowbotham.
I have checked our matriculation index for the years around1830-1840s but this name has not appeared I'm afraid. Until the late 1800s many students did not go through the formalities of matriculating and graduating, just attending classes and perhaps gaining a certificate, so it is possible me may have attended.
I'm sorry we can't be of more help.
Best Wishes,
Rona Morrison
Centre for Research Collections"

More important to the theme of the conversation is, do I think that Dr Pepper or Dr Birley (according to Garwood, btw, Birley WAS his middle name, & Wikipedia cocurs) were really Drs in the sense of having attained degrees from institutions of higher learning. The answer to both questions is no. & saying that he is 'innocent until proven guilty' is hogwash. If you are told to see Dr John Q. Public, MD by your insurance, do you not look for his diploma on the wall when you enter? If someone says they're a Dr, don't you want proof before they treat you? Rowbotham's claim (or should I call him Birley, as he himself did?) that he was a PhD is bulls--t w/o proof. In the 19th Century, people might have been ok w/ empty claims. But this is the 21st. We expect more than claims. We expect, in fact we demand, substantial proof.

Dr. Birleys was used for the name for his soda pop.  Dr. Pepper was invented around the same time.  Do you think the inventor really had the surname Pepper? 

I confess to this being off - topic, but the name of Dr. Pepper had nothing to do with the surname of the inventor. I also confess I  had never heard of "Dr. Birley's". Is it for real ?

"Name
Theories abound about the origins of the soft drink's name. One conjecture is the "pep" refers to pepsin. In 2009, an old ledger book filled with formulas and recipes was discovered by Bill Waters while shopping at an antiques stores in the Texas Panhandle.[4] Several sheets and letterheads hinted it had come from the W.B. Morrison & Co. Old Corner Drug Store (the same store where Dr Pepper was first served in 1885) and faded letters on the book's cover spelled out "Castles Formulas". John Castles was a partner of Morrison's for a time and worked at that location as early as 1880. One recipe in the book titled "D Peppers Pepsin Bitters" was of particular interest, and some speculated it could be an early recipe for Dr Pepper. However, Dr Pepper Snapple Group insists it is not the formula for Dr Pepper, but is instead a medicinal recipe for a digestive aid. The book was put up for auction in May 2009, but no one purchased it.[5]

Like many early sodas, the drink was marketed as a brain tonic and energizing pick-me-up, so another theory holds that it was named for the pep it supposedly gave to users.

Others believe the drink was named after a real Dr. Pepper. One candidate is Dr. Charles T. Pepper of Rural Retreat, Virginia, who may have been so honored by Morrison either for having granted him permission to marry Dr. Pepper's daughter, or in gratitude to Pepper for having given Morrison his first job. However, Morrison lived nearly 50 miles from Rural Retreat, and Pepper's daughter was only eight years old at the time Morrison moved to Waco.

Another possibility is Dr. Pepper of Christiansburg, Virginia.[6] U.S. Census records show a young Morrison working as a pharmacy clerk in Christiansburg. One of the following pages of this census supposedly shows a Dr Pepper and daughter Malinda or Malissa, age 16. Since census takers of the period were walking door to door, and their census entries were on following pages, it seems likely that Morrison and the family of Dr. Pepper did not live very far from each other."
url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_Pepper]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_Pepper[/url]

More trivia: The Dr. Pepper bottlling plant at Dublin, Texas was still making "Dr. Pepper made with real granulated sugar" for a time. Many persons made pilgrimages to Dublin just to buy cases of the drink.

Luckily I haven't seen any claims by Daniel Shenton for any academic qualifications.

Well, Garwood says nothing about soda. She says he was baptised as Samuel Birley Rowbotham, & after the mess @ the Owenite colony, reinvented himself as Dr Birley PhD.

activities as a case of severely misinterpreted data. If FET has nothing more to go on than 133 yr old misused data, its case is pretty weak. I mean, seriously. Would you rely on 133 yr old data for anything else? Someone mentioned medical treatment. Would you rely on treatment that old if you were ill? FET should be held to the same standards as any other academic discipline. EDIT Please note. I'm texting from a dumbphone w/ space limitations on characters & spaces. My posts may be broken into 2 or 3 parts for that reason.

I am always accused of using too many "IMHO's".......But IMHO this website is a lot of fun if you don't take it seriously. I also confess to having taken the search for "Samuel Birley Rowbotham-Academic Qualifications" too seriously. Looking for the needle in the haystack is probably a lot easier.

Another IMHO. This  whole website, especially the conduct of the moderators and FE's and RE's in general leaves a lot to be desired in comparison with most websites on the internet. But still it's a lot of fun in looking up all the things with facts and evidence that you can post to de-bunk the FES........including Samuel Birley Rowbotham.....He was a real person, but whether or not he was an MD or a PhD is another question.

IMHO you don't have a lot of experience with most other websites on the internet, because you always say how bad people are here compared to other websites. There are lots of websites out there that are really and truly horrible. This one has a nice balance. We can joke around a bit without some net nanny telling us to behave all the time.

Would you rely on 133 yr old data for anything else? Someone mentioned medical treatment. Would you rely on treatment that old if you were ill?

*cough*
http://www.homeopathyusa.org/
http://www.britishhomeopathic.org/
*cough*