For the sake of humanity, please...

Quote from: TheodorusOfSamos on April 13, 2014, 05:18:41 AM

Sorry, I should have clarified what age group I'm I envisioning here, I'm thinking about 6th grade or so, 11 or 12 years old. At this age, kids in most public schools are already exposed to geometry, algebra, astronomy, and concepts of classical physics even. Depending on the school, they may have already had exposure to these subjects and the surly some level of scientific investigation at even younger ages.

At that age don't confuse them that what they have learned is wrong because it is not. The concept of a flat earth is very complicate for them to understand. You would have to explain gravity does not exist and the flat earth is acceleration at 1 g to the 99.9999% to speed of light and never reach it. Also the south pole is a big wall of ice and if you go there your will die. Does that make sense to a 12 year old.

Let them continue gathering knowledge in a healthy way.

But they didn't "gather" knowledge to begin with.  They were conditioned to believe the spherical earth spins before they could even comprehend it or question it.  To the brain, that is PROGRAMMING.  The healthy way is to not tell kids ANYTHING about complex ideas/theories until they either ASK about it or are old enough to understand it.  The spherical model is just as complicated as the flat one so that's just an excuse.

Quote from: Starman on April 13, 2014, 05:26:10 AM

Quote from: TheodorusOfSamos on April 13, 2014, 05:18:41 AM

Sorry, I should have clarified what age group I'm I envisioning here, I'm thinking about 6th grade or so, 11 or 12 years old. At this age, kids in most public schools are already exposed to geometry, algebra, astronomy, and concepts of classical physics even. Depending on the school, they may have already had exposure to these subjects and the surly some level of scientific investigation at even younger ages.

At that age don't confuse them that what they have learned is wrong because it is not. The concept of a flat earth is very complicate for them to understand. You would have to explain gravity does not exist and the flat earth is acceleration at 1 g to the 99.9999% to speed of light and never reach it. Also the south pole is a big wall of ice and if you go there your will die. Does that make sense to a 12 year old.

Let them continue gathering knowledge in a healthy way.

But they didn't "gather" knowledge to begin with.  They were conditioned to believe the spherical earth spins before they could even comprehend it or question it.  To the brain, that is PROGRAMMING.  The healthy way is to not tell kids ANYTHING about complex ideas/theories until they either ASK about it or are old enough to understand it.  The spherical model is just as complicated as the flat one so that's just an excuse.

I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that it isn't indoctrination. However, there is nothing wrong with indoctrinating truth. The earth is a sphere and this is a fact. We should absolutely teach children that.

Quote from: Starman on April 13, 2014, 05:03:42 AM

I don't know what age you are talking about but a child can only understand things to a certain amount. You can't describe gravity and why it keeps us in orbit the sun to a child. The concept is beyond their understanding. Also the child will be with other children and if extreme ideas are introduce the child will be made fun of.

I completely disagree with you. Kids aren't as stupid as you make them sound.

He's not saying that kids are stupid.  We were talking about young kids, elementary school age before Theo mentioned 12 year olds.  Why do you think parents tell their kids that storks bring babies and Santa brings Christmas gifts?  Because the truth is too complex for a child's mind.  Not because they think their kid is dumb.

Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on April 13, 2014, 07:11:29 AM

Quote from: Starman on April 13, 2014, 05:03:42 AM

I don't know what age you are talking about but a child can only understand things to a certain amount. You can't describe gravity and why it keeps us in orbit the sun to a child. The concept is beyond their understanding. Also the child will be with other children and if extreme ideas are introduce the child will be made fun of.

Exactly why they shouldn't be teaching them about the Earth at such a young age.  Most kids don't question ANY of that until they are older.  They are putting ideas into very impreshionable minds!

That idea is like: "lets teach kids what drugs is all about by giving them some and that can decide for themselves it if for them or not." How about sex. Tell them they are too young for sex but they should try it and they can decide for themselves if it is for them.

What are you talking about?  Stick with the context.

Quote from: rottingroom on April 13, 2014, 05:50:47 AM

Quote from: Starman on April 13, 2014, 05:03:42 AM

I don't know what age you are talking about but a child can only understand things to a certain amount. You can't describe gravity and why it keeps us in orbit the sun to a child. The concept is beyond their understanding. Also the child will be with other children and if extreme ideas are introduce the child will be made fun of.

I completely disagree with you. Kids aren't as stupid as you make them sound.

He's not saying that kids are stupid.  We were talking about young kids, elementary school age before Theo mentioned 12 year olds.  Why do you think parents tell their kids that storks bring babies and Santa brings Christmas gifts?  Because the truth is too complex for a child's mind.  Not because they think their kid is dumb.

You say dumb things.

Quote from: Starman on April 13, 2014, 07:16:59 AM

Quote from: EarthIsASpaceship on April 13, 2014, 07:11:29 AM

Quote from: Starman on April 13, 2014, 05:03:42 AM

I don't know what age you are talking about but a child can only understand things to a certain amount. You can't describe gravity and why it keeps us in orbit the sun to a child. The concept is beyond their understanding. Also the child will be with other children and if extreme ideas are introduce the child will be made fun of.

Exactly why they shouldn't be teaching them about the Earth at such a young age.  Most kids don't question ANY of that until they are older.  They are putting ideas into very impreshionable minds!

That idea is like: "lets teach kids what drugs is all about by giving them some and that can decide for themselves it if for them or not." How about sex. Tell them they are too young for sex but they should try it and they can decide for themselves if it is for them.

What are you talking about?  Stick with the context.

The context was to let kids think by themselves. You can't do that at the age of 12.

Speaking of context, where I left off was not whether to teach children about earth sciences but rather how we should teach about the scientific method and rigorous hypothesis testing. My assertion is that introducing the topic of the shape of the earth and the earliest experiments to determine its shape and size can be used to illustrate the scientific method. Here's what I originally said:

 

I think you might be taking the concept to an extreme - what I'm suggesting for these hypothetical 6th graders is an introduction to the topic of scientific observation, hypothesis testing, and deduction and using the investigation of earth's shape and size as a vehicle for this.

For instance, I think an excellent place to start is with the concept of the null hypothesis (i.e. establishing that neither FE or RE is the null hypothesis, and that the burden of proof is on the one asserting any model of earth, not just one model vs another - that's where things get complicated, fitting data to multiple models).

From there, Eratosthene's research into differences in the lengths of shadows cast at different points on the earth on the same day at the same time would serve as a good example of literature research and forming a hypothesis, and his experiments to determine the diameter of the earth serves as a great example of hypothesis testing through experimentation.

12 year olds can grasp this stuff, these were the earliest experiments that systematically examined the nature of earth's shape, so they tend to also be the simplest.

Who counted to seven billion?  out of a population of 7,000,000,000

Both FET and RET should be taught in school so students can arrive at an Earth shape decision that best matches the reality of the ground they live on.

It is just as important that the limitations of the scientific method are taught as well as the purported benefits.  How hypothesis testing relates to Earth shape is not as important as giving students all the tools they need to conduct a rational approach to Earth shape dynamics.   

We should not fear truth.  We should embrace the wisdom of doing the right thing by letting our students make up their own mind. 

Both FET and RET should be taught in school so students can arrive at an Earth shape decision that best matches the reality of the ground they live on.

It is just as important that the limitations of the scientific method are taught as well as the purported benefits.  How hypothesis testing relates to Earth shape is not as important as giving students all the tools they need to conduct a rational approach to Earth shape dynamics.   

We should not fear truth.  We should embrace the wisdom of doing the right thing by letting our students make up their own mind.

No we should not teach FET in schools. Not ever.

While teaching both FET and RET to schoolkids, should we also teach both the theory that 2+2=4 and the theory that 2+2=5?  Should we teach the theory that water molecules are made of 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen, while also teaching the theory that a water molecule is made of carbon and copper?

Both FET and RET should be taught in school so students can arrive at an Earth shape decision that best matches the reality of the ground they live on.

It is just as important that the limitations of the scientific method are taught as well as the purported benefits.  How hypothesis testing relates to Earth shape is not as important as giving students all the tools they need to conduct a rational approach to Earth shape dynamics.   

We should not fear truth.  We should embrace the wisdom of doing the right thing by letting our students make up their own mind.

Where is the Flat earth map for Geography?

Quote from: gotham on April 13, 2014, 01:51:32 PM

Both FET and RET should be taught in school so students can arrive at an Earth shape decision that best matches the reality of the ground they live on.

It is just as important that the limitations of the scientific method are taught as well as the purported benefits.  How hypothesis testing relates to Earth shape is not as important as giving students all the tools they need to conduct a rational approach to Earth shape dynamics.   

We should not fear truth.  We should embrace the wisdom of doing the right thing by letting our students make up their own mind.

Where is the Flat earth map for Geography?

Responding to the requested need for an updated map, it has already been recommended that funds be raised for THE mapping project. This will confirm the Earth shape correctly expressed throughout time and even within TFES. 

I also agree that whatever process created the current "globe" used in classrooms and beyond, the output most certainly does not represent reality.  THE mapping project will help remove that globe and it's representation both from physical space and from the mental imagery people currently are forced to capture and endure.

What replaces it will be the successful return of rightful Earth shape expressed in map form.         

Hi, I may be a newbie on this forum, but I've been reading through the current topics and many of the older discussions to help me get an insight into how people from different backgrounds and prospectives understand the process of science, how they interpret the meaning of the scientific method, and how well people understand how the scientific community has constructed our understanding of the natural world. The OP and the early responses to the post caught my eye for a different reason and I'd like to expand on it:

>>>>>If you were a parent, how would you react if your child (whether they are young or adult now) one day professes that they believe that the shape of earth is different from your view of it. And what would you do if they intend to teach their belief in a FE or RE to their own children? This applies to FE and RE alike.<<<<<

I'm really interested to hear how people from both sides feel about this.

Cheers!

This is my take on it: I've never questioned the shape of the earth. It's clearly round, everyone knows it is, there's undeniable scientific proof, photos, obvious facts such as planes flying around the globe...compared with flat earthers who say that the earth is flat but youll never see the edge because it's too cold and (for some reason) satellites in space cant even zoom in and take photos of it...In life, there's always going to be small pockets of people who dream up theories to challenge facts. This is one of them. They don't know how to back up their own arguments and always use the terms "well we think that" or "maybe its because". How hard can it be to just get a picture of somewhere near the "edge of the earth" to prove it? 7billion people on this planet, millions of planes flying globally each year, SURELY someone must have seen it?...

Quote from: inquisitive on April 13, 2014, 02:37:42 PM

Quote from: gotham on April 13, 2014, 01:51:32 PM

Both FET and RET should be taught in school so students can arrive at an Earth shape decision that best matches the reality of the ground they live on.

It is just as important that the limitations of the scientific method are taught as well as the purported benefits.  How hypothesis testing relates to Earth shape is not as important as giving students all the tools they need to conduct a rational approach to Earth shape dynamics.   

We should not fear truth.  We should embrace the wisdom of doing the right thing by letting our students make up their own mind.

Where is the Flat earth map for Geography?

Responding to the requested need for an updated map, it has already been recommended that funds be raised for THE mapping project. This will confirm the Earth shape correctly expressed throughout time and even within TFES. 

I also agree that whatever process created the current "globe" used in classrooms and beyond, the output most certainly does not represent reality.  THE mapping project will help remove that globe and it's representation both from physical space and from the mental imagery people currently are forced to capture and endure.

What replaces it will be the successful return of rightful Earth shape expressed in map form.         

sorry to say this but the only place you will see the flat globe(oxymoron) is in the nut house.

My kids were raised with a strict Flat Earth education.  I will not pass on the lies of the conspiracy to future generations.

Are they home-schooled? I feel like you'd have to shelter them quite a bit.  Considering that the REarthers make a pretty convincing case.

Quote from: jroa on April 08, 2014, 08:36:34 PM

My kids were raised with a strict Flat Earth education.  I will not pass on the lies of the conspiracy to future generations.

Are they home-schooled? I feel like you'd have to shelter them quite a bit.  Considering that the REarthers make a pretty convincing case.

Don't forget they will be ridiculed. That is selfish to me.

Don't forget they will be ridiculed. That is selfish to me.

Kids get ridiculed for wearing eye glasses or not having the latest style of clothing.  Some kids are insecure and will look for anything to ridicule another kid about in order to make themselves feel better.

Besides, I taught my kids to fight at a very young age.  My two older sons were both amature mixed martial arts fighters until one hurt his shoulder and the other hurt his knee (neither injury occurred in a fight).

Quote from: gotham on April 13, 2014, 01:51:32 PM

Both FET and RET should be taught in school so students can arrive at an Earth shape decision that best matches the reality of the ground they live on.

It is just as important that the limitations of the scientific method are taught as well as the purported benefits.  How hypothesis testing relates to Earth shape is not as important as giving students all the tools they need to conduct a rational approach to Earth shape dynamics.   

We should not fear truth.  We should embrace the wisdom of doing the right thing by letting our students make up their own mind.

No we should not teach FET in schools. Not ever.

Both carry equal weight. Science is always claiming it is open to ideas.

Quote from: rottingroom on April 13, 2014, 02:24:29 PM

Quote from: gotham on April 13, 2014, 01:51:32 PM

Both FET and RET should be taught in school so students can arrive at an Earth shape decision that best matches the reality of the ground they live on.

It is just as important that the limitations of the scientific method are taught as well as the purported benefits.  How hypothesis testing relates to Earth shape is not as important as giving students all the tools they need to conduct a rational approach to Earth shape dynamics.   

We should not fear truth.  We should embrace the wisdom of doing the right thing by letting our students make up their own mind.

No we should not teach FET in schools. Not ever.

Both carry equal weight. Science is always claiming it is open to ideas.

Where is the fe map for geography?

Quote from: Starman on April 17, 2014, 06:57:25 PM

Don't forget they will be ridiculed. That is selfish to me.

Kids get ridiculed for wearing eye glasses or not having the latest style of clothing.  Some kids are insecure and will look for anything to ridicule another kid about in order to make themselves feel better.

Besides, I taught my kids to fight at a very young age.  My two older sons were both amature mixed martial arts fighters until one hurt his shoulder and the other hurt his knee (neither injury occurred in a fight).

Only in America where violence is supreme with kids.

That flat earth is FAKE. The underneath should be made of cheese.