Denpressure fails again.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #300 on: April 09, 2014, 10:49:23 AM »

This means an object weighing 1000g today could be 950g next week.
Yes, as long as you didn't touch the scales.
Have you proved this?
Yes.
What figures did you see?
I saw a 11g difference in the chamber I used on a 20g piece of wood. It weighed 9g.
Try it out for yourself.

Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #301 on: April 09, 2014, 10:52:20 AM »
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It acts in all direction against any mass that enters into it.
So why do things fall?
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What wood is denser. I very tall thick tree or a smaller thinner tree?
Well, Lignum Vitae, one of the densest woods we know of (at around 1200 kg/m^3), comes from a tree called Guaiacum officinale, which grows to around 10m high. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaiacum_officinale). Pecan  ( Carya illinoinensis) grows up to 20-40m high (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecan) and its density is less than Lignum Vitae. So the answer to your question is "It depends, since density is an intrinsic property of any material".

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #302 on: April 09, 2014, 11:02:10 AM »
It is acting equally in all directions. The only difference is that the force above acts to push all objects into the ground resisted by the forces around the object and under it.
OK, so the forces are equal.  Why do things fall to earth then?

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Once you use energy to push any object up you are creating the same force to push it back down whilst being squeezed at the sides and pushed up against by the air under it, which creates resistance as it's pushed out of the way.
I don't understand this at all.  In my example a person is on cliff, they have been wondering around all day up there before they step off.  They will not have some bit of "squeezed air" above the.  If, when they step off, pressure is acting equally in all directions, do they dall downwards and not just float off?
You are forgetting about yourself already displacing that air no matter where you stand.
I'm unclear as to why this is relevant? Why does displacing air make me fall downwards, rather than going up, sideways or just staying where I am?  How does air pressure, acting equally in all directions, make me go downwards every single time?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #303 on: April 09, 2014, 11:02:40 AM »
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It acts in all direction against any mass that enters into it.
So why do things fall?
Quote
What wood is denser. I very tall thick tree or a smaller thinner tree?
Well, Lignum Vitae, one of the densest woods we know of (at around 1200 kg/m^3), comes from a tree called Guaiacum officinale, which grows to around 10m high. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaiacum_officinale). Pecan  ( Carya illinoinensis) grows up to 20-40m high (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecan) and its density is less than Lignum Vitae. So the answer to your question is "It depends, since density is an intrinsic property of any material".
Now look at where they grow.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #304 on: April 09, 2014, 11:04:59 AM »
It is acting equally in all directions. The only difference is that the force above acts to push all objects into the ground resisted by the forces around the object and under it.
OK, so the forces are equal.  Why do things fall to earth then?

Quote
Once you use energy to push any object up you are creating the same force to push it back down whilst being squeezed at the sides and pushed up against by the air under it, which creates resistance as it's pushed out of the way.
I don't understand this at all.  In my example a person is on cliff, they have been wondering around all day up there before they step off.  They will not have some bit of "squeezed air" above the.  If, when they step off, pressure is acting equally in all directions, do they dall downwards and not just float off?
You are forgetting about yourself already displacing that air no matter where you stand.
I'm unclear as to why this is relevant? Why does displacing air make me fall downwards, rather than going up, sideways or just staying where I am?  How does air pressure, acting equally in all directions, make me go downwards every single time?
I can't help you if you're not willing to even attempt to engage your brain. This is simply a globe v flat Earth stance your taking, you have no intention of understanding.

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #305 on: April 09, 2014, 11:07:23 AM »
I am engaging you scepti.  I'm asking you to tell me how air pressure makes things fall down, even though it acts equally in all directions.

You can't tell me, so resort to the usual schtick about "closed minds" etc.
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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #306 on: April 09, 2014, 11:12:18 AM »
Quote
It acts in all direction against any mass that enters into it.
So why do things fall?
Quote
What wood is denser. I very tall thick tree or a smaller thinner tree?
Well, Lignum Vitae, one of the densest woods we know of (at around 1200 kg/m^3), comes from a tree called Guaiacum officinale, which grows to around 10m high. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaiacum_officinale). Pecan  ( Carya illinoinensis) grows up to 20-40m high (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecan) and its density is less than Lignum Vitae. So the answer to your question is "It depends, since density is an intrinsic property of any material".
Now look at where they grow.
And this would be relevant because...? Anyway, you can look for yourself.
Also, if air pressure acts equally on all directions, why do things fall?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #307 on: April 09, 2014, 11:16:04 AM »
I am engaging you scepti.  I'm asking you to tell me how air pressure makes things fall down, even though it acts equally in all directions.

You can't tell me, so resort to the usual schtick about "closed minds" etc.
Nothing can fall down unless pushed up. You on a cliff have pushed yourself up that cliff and you are cnstantly displacing the atmosphere as you do so, until you're stood at the top where you body still displaces the atmosphere which is pushing your feet into the ground, or trying to.
If you make that easier by stepping off a cliff, it acts on you and your body displacing the air acting on you gets filled as you drop through resistance. The air will push you down and the air around you will grip you as you go down, whilst the air under you will resist your density.
The best way to understand it is imagining yourself in sticky goo.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #308 on: April 09, 2014, 11:23:45 AM »
Quote
It acts in all direction against any mass that enters into it.
So why do things fall?
Quote
What wood is denser. I very tall thick tree or a smaller thinner tree?
Well, Lignum Vitae, one of the densest woods we know of (at around 1200 kg/m^3), comes from a tree called Guaiacum officinale, which grows to around 10m high. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaiacum_officinale). Pecan  ( Carya illinoinensis) grows up to 20-40m high (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecan) and its density is less than Lignum Vitae. So the answer to your question is "It depends, since density is an intrinsic property of any material".
Now look at where they grow.
And this would be relevant because...? Anyway, you can look for yourself.
Also, if air pressure acts equally on all directions, why do things fall?
It only acts equally in all directions until a force makes it act in an unequal manner, as in action forst and equal reaction. There always has to be an action before reaction. So although it's equal when something is still, your action changes that or the action of any object from the ground up or horizontal.
If you push up, your action creates a reaction in equal terms, the same as if you walk forwards. you always create a lower pressure below and around you as you move up or horizontal, which creates a higher pressure behind you. The same as you descend you create a higher pressure below you and a lower pressure above and around you which is always filled.

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #309 on: April 09, 2014, 11:36:27 AM »
I am engaging you scepti.  I'm asking you to tell me how air pressure makes things fall down, even though it acts equally in all directions.

You can't tell me, so resort to the usual schtick about "closed minds" etc.
Nothing can fall down unless pushed up. You on a cliff have pushed yourself up that cliff and you are cnstantly displacing the atmosphere as you do so,
So, if I'm walking down a mountain, and come to cliff edge, how does this work?

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until you're stood at the top where you body still displaces the atmosphere which is pushing your feet into the ground
Yes, but WHY is it pushing me into the ground?  Air pressure acts equally in all directions. 

Quote
If you make that easier by stepping off a cliff, it acts on you and your body displacing the air acting on you gets filled as you drop through resistance.
Yes, but why am I dropping in the first place???  Specifically, why down towards the planet?


Quote
The best way to understand it is imagining yourself in sticky goo.
I'm not in sticky goo, whatever that is, I'm in normal air.
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HeeHaw

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #310 on: April 09, 2014, 11:41:13 AM »
Better yet, how does it explain how things fly?   

If denpressure is constantly pushing down, then what is the force that pushes up on a moving airplane's wings allowing it to overcome denpressure?

New here, quite an interesting site...
An aeroplane uses it's engines to gain horizontal speed and it's life is generated by the wings against the friction of the air, slicing through the air and pushing it faster over the top of the wind than the bottom, creating a low pressure above which the high pressure below always tries to fill, so it pushes the wings up.

It only acts equally in all directions until a force makes it act in an unequal manner, as in action forst and equal reaction. There always has to be an action before reaction. So although it's equal when something is still, your action changes that or the action of any object from the ground up or horizontal.
If you push up, your action creates a reaction in equal terms, the same as if you walk forwards. you always create a lower pressure below and around you as you move up or horizontal, which creates a higher pressure behind you. The same as you descend you create a higher pressure below you and a lower pressure above and around you which is always filled.

Do you see the contradiction here?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #311 on: April 09, 2014, 11:42:00 AM »
I am engaging you scepti.  I'm asking you to tell me how air pressure makes things fall down, even though it acts equally in all directions.

You can't tell me, so resort to the usual schtick about "closed minds" etc.
Nothing can fall down unless pushed up. You on a cliff have pushed yourself up that cliff and you are cnstantly displacing the atmosphere as you do so,
So, if I'm walking down a mountain, and come to cliff edge, how does this work?

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until you're stood at the top where you body still displaces the atmosphere which is pushing your feet into the ground
Yes, but WHY is it pushing me into the ground?  Air pressure acts equally in all directions. 

Quote
If you make that easier by stepping off a cliff, it acts on you and your body displacing the air acting on you gets filled as you drop through resistance.
Yes, but why am I dropping in the first place???  Specifically, why down towards the planet?


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The best way to understand it is imagining yourself in sticky goo.
I'm not in sticky goo, whatever that is, I'm in normal air.
You have absoluitely no intention of grasping anything. I'll give you a miss and anyone else that's not interested in grasping the analogies. If people can't undrstand the simple basics, they will be forever stuck in the complex crap world of fictional gravity that they pretend they know but actually know absolutely nothing, except, "oh mass attracts mass and that's why things fall."
How am I ever going to explain something when people have their heads filled with this crap.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #312 on: April 09, 2014, 11:44:52 AM »
Better yet, how does it explain how things fly?   

If denpressure is constantly pushing down, then what is the force that pushes up on a moving airplane's wings allowing it to overcome denpressure?

New here, quite an interesting site...
An aeroplane uses it's engines to gain horizontal speed and it's life is generated by the wings against the friction of the air, slicing through the air and pushing it faster over the top of the wind than the bottom, creating a low pressure above which the high pressure below always tries to fill, so it pushes the wings up.

It only acts equally in all directions until a force makes it act in an unequal manner, as in action forst and equal reaction. There always has to be an action before reaction. So although it's equal when something is still, your action changes that or the action of any object from the ground up or horizontal.
If you push up, your action creates a reaction in equal terms, the same as if you walk forwards. you always create a lower pressure below and around you as you move up or horizontal, which creates a higher pressure behind you. The same as you descend you create a higher pressure below you and a lower pressure above and around you which is always filled.

Do you see the contradiction here?
If you spent less time looking for contradictions and more time actually looking at the reality of it, you might get somewhere.
There isn't any contradiction. One is rising and the other is descending. Have a good think about it. No really...have a good think about it.

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Starman

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #313 on: April 09, 2014, 12:15:32 PM »
It [Atmospheric Pressure] is acting equally in all directions.


What is the force on the top are you talking about that is pushing things down?
Atmospheric pressure. How many times do you feel you need to be told this?

Do you see why this makes no sense?  It is either acting equally in all directions, or it is not.  Which is it?
I've just told you it's acting equally in all directions. How many times do I need to say this?

Then what pushes down?
I've just explained to starman how it works in  fashion, to make it more understandable.
You did not. Your gave a silly explaining about a guy in the pool. There is a type of force that keeps the air on the earth. Air does not just sit there for no reason to start with.

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Jorhan Brimve Stahl

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #314 on: April 09, 2014, 12:22:16 PM »
Scep, I like how you're peppering Starman for "not wanting to grasp anything", when you keep avoiding a very simple question.
How does air pressure only force airborne objects downwards? Why does it not also push us up and/or sideways.
I don't suffer from schizophrenia and neither do I,

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Starman

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #315 on: April 09, 2014, 12:32:35 PM »

This means an object weighing 1000g today could be 950g next week.
Yes, as long as you didn't touch the scales.
Have you proved this?
Yes.
What figures did you see?
I saw a 11g difference in the chamber I used on a 20g piece of wood. It weighed 9g.
Try it out for yourself.
You are lying again. If the test was done in a vacuum chamber show us a picture of it. You make claims now show it.

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Jorhan Brimve Stahl

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #316 on: April 09, 2014, 12:36:57 PM »

This means an object weighing 1000g today could be 950g next week.
Yes, as long as you didn't touch the scales.
Have you proved this?
Yes.
What figures did you see?
I saw a 11g difference in the chamber I used on a 20g piece of wood. It weighed 9g.
Try it out for yourself.
You are lying again. If the test was done in a vacuum chamber show us a picture of it. You make claims now show it.

Fair point actually. By the FES' almost-fanatically-followed ground rule; "pics or it didn't happen"
I don't suffer from schizophrenia and neither do I,

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RandomREalist

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #317 on: April 09, 2014, 04:56:02 PM »


Click for full size

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29silhouette

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #318 on: April 09, 2014, 06:22:18 PM »
Why always the single direction push Scepti?  If I walk horizontally and displace air, why am I not pushed back to where I started?  Or if I walk down a steep hill, why am I not pushed back up? 

If air pressure is equal from all sides, how does it know which way to push me?

Also, a total and complete vacuum is possible if air molecules are interconnected and change size (like bubbles) with a simple vacuum chamber according to your hypothesis.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 06:46:01 PM by 29silhouette »

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Scintific Method

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #319 on: April 09, 2014, 08:22:51 PM »
I saw a 11g difference in the chamber I used on a 20g piece of wood. It weighed 9g.
Try it out for yourself.
You are lying again. If the test was done in a vacuum chamber show us a picture of it. You make claims now show it.

Fair point actually. By the FES' almost-fanatically-followed ground rule; "pics or it didn't happen"

I'm not overly worried about pictures (although, they would be appreciated); what I'd really like to see is the details on how this test was carried out. The full experimental method, if you will, which would allow others to repeat the test and verify the results independently.
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inquisitive

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #320 on: April 10, 2014, 12:32:47 AM »

This means an object weighing 1000g today could be 950g next week.
Yes, as long as you didn't touch the scales.
Have you proved this?
Yes.
This means that objects change weight depending on the weather. This is not true, you are playing games here.

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Jorhan Brimve Stahl

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #321 on: April 10, 2014, 02:34:12 AM »
I guess "Heavy Rain" means more to these people.
I don't suffer from schizophrenia and neither do I,

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #322 on: April 10, 2014, 02:43:12 AM »
It [Atmospheric Pressure] is acting equally in all directions.


What is the force on the top are you talking about that is pushing things down?
Atmospheric pressure. How many times do you feel you need to be told this?

Do you see why this makes no sense?  It is either acting equally in all directions, or it is not.  Which is it?
I've just told you it's acting equally in all directions. How many times do I need to say this?

Then what pushes down?
I've just explained to starman how it works in  fashion, to make it more understandable.
You did not. Your gave a silly explaining about a guy in the pool. There is a type of force that keeps the air on the earth. Air does not just sit there for no reason to start with.
Your major problem is not being able to get your head away from what happens at sea level in terms of holding pressure. You're thinking of a compressed air cylinder, if, when released will leak into the atmosphere so you think everything should follow suit.
You've been told, time and time again why this is not the case, because the atmosphere is divided into it's element make up by force of nature which all starts inside the Earth at it's central point, as in the largest emittance of energy, which we see as the sun, which creates everything that happens, as in dividing those elements into their respective places up into the atmosphere where the lightest is pushed to the top where it freezes.
Instead of fighting it, try and get your head around it first.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #323 on: April 10, 2014, 02:54:51 AM »
Scep, I like how you're peppering Starman for "not wanting to grasp anything", when you keep avoiding a very simple question.
How does air pressure only force airborne objects downwards? Why does it not also push us up and/or sideways.
It does push up, it's always pushing up. This is why you see volvanic eruptions and geysers, etc. It's all pressure and it's all ejected up. Some of it is separated depending on the amount of heat, which agitates the air and forces the elements into their respective layers, but the heavier elements are always falling back to where they came from, including the air we breathe, except it cannot fall any further back into the Earth other than onto the ground or into any crevice in the ground and cannot fall into the water except onto it.
The only way it can go into the ground or into water is by force from below or above, as in unerwater ejections as in volcanic , etc or by pump ,etc.
There is always trapped air in water inside various elements.
The point is, it takes energy to displace the air above ground and you are one form of it. Your action against that air creates an equal and opposite reaction to you, from above down your sides whith your feet holding that back with support from the solid ground.
Your dense body creates it's own void in your shape which will always be ready to be filled if you move just one millimetre or 100 feet. It's your action that forces a reaction.
This is why you cannot just float. It's easy to understand if you're willing to look at it logically and not fight it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #324 on: April 10, 2014, 02:58:51 AM »

You are lying again. If the test was done in a vacuum chamber show us a picture of it. You make claims now show it.
I'll tell you what! You put yourself down as some scientist know it all and you said you were well off, so I'm assuming that you will have an evacuation chamber or easily be able to get access to one.
So instead of calling me a liar, how about you go and do the experiment that I've just explained. You will see for yourself as long as you do it correctly. My guess is you will either not perform it or you will pretend you have and tell me I'm a liar anyway.
I ask any flat Earth believer to try the experiment I've set out and any logical person who's wish is to find the truth, to do so, because some of these globulites are far from honest.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #325 on: April 10, 2014, 03:08:40 AM »


Click for full size
Once the person leaves the wing he/she is no longer under any of their own energy that can effect any lift unless they were wearing wings to create some extra resistance, yet they would still come down. You need to have a real good think on what's been said.

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inquisitive

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #326 on: April 10, 2014, 03:22:55 AM »

You are lying again. If the test was done in a vacuum chamber show us a picture of it. You make claims now show it.
I'll tell you what! You put yourself down as some scientist know it all and you said you were well off, so I'm assuming that you will have an evacuation chamber or easily be able to get access to one.
So instead of calling me a liar, how about you go and do the experiment that I've just explained. You will see for yourself as long as you do it correctly. My guess is you will either not perform it or you will pretend you have and tell me I'm a liar anyway.
I ask any flat Earth believer to try the experiment I've set out and any logical person who's wish is to find the truth, to do so, because some of these globulites are far from honest.
Surely you just need to see the weight of an object change depending on thr atmospheric pressure.

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airyfairy76

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #327 on: April 10, 2014, 03:26:02 AM »
There is always trapped air in water inside various elements.
So a block of iron or aluminium, that has a rigid crystalline structure between their atoms, has water and air trapped in it? There is space between the atoms (there is space between all atoms), but not enough for other molecules to penetrate when in a solid state.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #328 on: April 10, 2014, 03:31:12 AM »
Why always the singe direction push Scepti?  If I walk horizontally and displace air, why am I not pushed back to where I started?  Or if I walk down a steep hill, why am I not pushed back up? 
Let's take a mild day, no wind. Your body has already displaced the air you are standing in. We can agree on this, right?
Until you move, everything around you is equally acting on you, as in atmospheric pressure. Because you are stood upright, you have the air pressure bearing DOWN onto your head and shoulders, withe the rest distributed around your body from the sides. The soles of your feet are being pushed to the ground with the ground resisting that push from above. All the pressure is absorbed up your muscles from that point all the way up to the last muscle in your neck. Bascially you are being compressed but are strong enough to resist it. You are much stronger than you think but you don't appreciate it because your body is naturally geared to the environment it's in. You only realise how strong you are when you see the pressure difference when you try to evacuate it at sea level and realise the actual push on you from all angles.
A window clamp (known as a suction cup) is a classic example of the push exterted onto anything. What keeps that cup to the window is what keeps your feet pushed to the ground through your upper body.
Because your body is strong and long, you can walk horizontally against the pressure due to your huge surface area pushing it out of the way...but the second you do so, you force that air around you which will leave a lower pressure behind you, until that pressure you pushed through, comes around you and from above to fill it which is always trying to create a push back onto you which keeps you in balance but not a complete perfect balance because although it's always playing close catch up, it cannot smack back into you...UNLESS you make an abrupt stop, which only then will you feel that force, which if you pay attention to bodily motion, you will see a person stop dead and then be pushed forward slightly. This is the catch up.
No action, no reaction. Action must come first before any reaction can start. It's why people are under the misconception that friction is a pain in the @rse to movement, when it's all relative to movement. You simply don't move without it no matter what energy you use in whatever form. This is why space rockets do not work but that's been debated, so forget about that.
If air pressure is equal from all sides, how does it know which way to push me?
It's not about it knowing anything. You effect it or any object within it. As above explanation.
Also, a total and complete vacuum is possible if air molecules are interconnected and change size (like bubbles) with a simple vacuum chamber according to your hypothesis.
A total vacuum on Earth is absolutely impossible. There's no argument to this. It is literally impossible. A large evacuation is possible and that's it. If you make a complete vacuum, you end all life in any form.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Denpressure fails again.
« Reply #329 on: April 10, 2014, 03:32:55 AM »
I saw a 11g difference in the chamber I used on a 20g piece of wood. It weighed 9g.
Try it out for yourself.
You are lying again. If the test was done in a vacuum chamber show us a picture of it. You make claims now show it.

Fair point actually. By the FES' almost-fanatically-followed ground rule; "pics or it didn't happen"

I'm not overly worried about pictures (although, they would be appreciated); what I'd really like to see is the details on how this test was carried out. The full experimental method, if you will, which would allow others to repeat the test and verify the results independently.
The test is simply explained. You can see this, so I suggest that you simply try it out. What have you got to lose?
I'm sure you have a chamber or can get one. Try it out and you don't have to simply rely on me telling you.