How FE'ers view scientist.

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Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2014, 09:11:06 AM »
Most scientists are essentially good people.  They are simply mistaken about the shape of the Earth. 

If you assume the Earth to be flat, then it is easy to make the data fit that model.

My point is about how well the available data fits a flat earth model vs a spherical earth model. The thing is you cannot assume either model first, the null hypothesis is that earth's shape is undefined, then you can compare the FE model to the null hypothesis and assess it FE has predictive validity to begin with. The same can be said about a spherical model, the assumption is that earth's shape is undefined, and you test to see if a spherical model significantly fits the data.

 The point being that you wouldn't have to do any comparison between different models if only one has any predictive value, you'll have to wait until new models come along to do such a comparisons. This is how scientists try to avoid pigeonholing themselves and making unfounded conclusions.

Your statement about assuming a flat earth first reminds me of that Ghost hunters show where they openly say that they go into investigations to disprove the existence of a ghost, but this is backwards, you must go into the investigation assuming no ghosts exist (the null hypothesis) and gather evidence for the existence of ghosts. By their approach, any data that doesn't demonstrate the lack of a ghost in the house is evidence for such a ghost, so no wonder why they keep concluding there is ghost activity wherever they go.

As a side note, I'm not trying to insult you or equate your FE hypothesis with a ghost hypothesis, I'm just using this ghost hunters thing as a commonly known example of a poorly constructed hypothesis and invalided hypothesis testing leading to outlandish conclusions. It's more of a cautionary tail.
Those who have an excessive faith in their theories or in their ideas are not only poorly disposed to make discoveries, but they also make very poor observations.
Claude Bernard, 1865

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2014, 09:18:30 AM »
Oh, I guess that means you're okay with us telling you to use the search whenever you ask the same questions that have been asked and answered thousands of times?

You can't be serious. Nothing about FES makes sense and that is why there are questions. Not to mention that FE'rs do say, "go read the wiki", despite the fact that that just begs more questions. Most of the questions FE'rs ask about RE stuff really can be answered with a search.

Why wouldn't I be serious? Starman and some others decided to reply with "look it up" in lots of different threads. You RE tend to get a little irked when you're told to do the same.  You've been here long enough to know the same questions get asked over and over, and most of them can be answered with a search. Some of the old discussions are filled with good stuff (also a lot of crap, tbh).
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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rottingroom

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Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2014, 09:37:52 AM »
Oh, I guess that means you're okay with us telling you to use the search whenever you ask the same questions that have been asked and answered thousands of times?

You can't be serious. Nothing about FES makes sense and that is why there are questions. Not to mention that FE'rs do say, "go read the wiki", despite the fact that that just begs more questions. Most of the questions FE'rs ask about RE stuff really can be answered with a search.

Why wouldn't I be serious? Starman and some others decided to reply with "look it up" in lots of different threads. You RE tend to get a little irked when you're told to do the same.  You've been here long enough to know the same questions get asked over and over, and most of them can be answered with a search. Some of the old discussions are filled with good stuff (also a lot of crap, tbh).

Because reading your wiki is useless. It's full of a bunch of useless information.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2014, 09:44:34 AM »
Well, you may not like the information but if you're here to debate the shape of the earth isn't it useful to know what the other side says about specific things?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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rottingroom

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Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2014, 09:48:10 AM »
Well, you may not like the information but if you're here to debate the shape of the earth isn't it useful to know what the other side says about specific things?

Indeed. What we are talking about is details. The questions FE'rs ask RE'rs are often about details concerning science. Most of which is accessible with any search engine. The question RE'rs ask FE'rs are often about details concerning FET. Most of which is nowhere to be found on the wiki. The wiki has articles that go no further than a couple of sentences. There is no detail and no data. Like I said, useless.

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Goddamnit, Clown

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Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2014, 06:36:05 PM »
Why wouldn't I be serious? Starman and some others decided to reply with "look it up" in lots of different threads. You RE tend to get a little irked when you're told to do the same.

There's a tremendous difference in how simple those two tasks are. Just google 'Hawking', not even 'Stephen Hawking' or 'what kind of scientist is stevie hawkson?' and right there on the results page: "Stephen William Hawking CH CBE FRS FRSA is an English theoretical physicist, cosmologist..." and -crucially- that is the only answer out there. A one word google search and you have the definitive answer to the asked question.

I'm genuinely fascinated by FE theory and its 'cosmology' as it were, so I'm more than happy to go and do the reading, but the information is far harder to find than that. If it can be found at all, it will often not agree with other equally available information so the original question will still need answering by the participant just so the conversation can move on.
Big Pendulum have their tentacles everywhere.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2014, 10:13:02 PM »
If you search for "how does UA work" here on TFES, you will have answers on the first page as well.  We still allow people to ask questions, though. 

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Goddamnit, Clown

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Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2014, 03:28:07 PM »
It all depends on what starman means by scientists. Be specific, starman.
Here is the definition: a person who is studying or has expert knowledge of one or more of the natural or physical sciences.
The natural sciences seek to understand how the world and universe around us works. There are five major branches: Chemistry, astronomy, earth science, physics, and biology.
So what kind of scientist is Hawking?
Yeah...but I don't know what he does.
So do what everyone else does and look it up.
Yeah I have. I still don't know what he does.

Just to be clear here for him and anyone who's been sympathetic to his plight, sceptimatic claims to have looked up Stephen Hawking but still not know whether he's a physicist or a biologist, thereby stalling the discussion from the OP before it could really start. Google results for:

hawking:    hawkin:    and what kind of scientist is stevie hawkson:

Without even following a link, it's clear that he's a theoretical physicist working primarily in cosmology. Almost as obvious as Stephen Hawking's professional field is the fact that sceptimatic is a troll. No need to keep feeding.

If you search for "how does UA work" here on TFES, you will have answers on the first page as well.  We still allow people to ask questions, though. 

I've been reading long enough to be well aware of what the UA is supposed to do but I hadn't before come across a suggestion about how it might work! Fascinated, I followed jroa's advice:

with:    and without: quotation marks.

Sadly, none of those results had anything like an answer to the question. If anyone has that answer, or any advice for a better search that might uncover it, please let me know.
Big Pendulum have their tentacles everywhere.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2014, 11:08:27 PM »
Did you check the wiki or the FAQ?  You might even Google the "equivalence principle" by a guy named Einstein in his "general relativity" theory.  He will tell you how UA works. 

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Starman

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Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2014, 04:04:14 AM »
Did you check the wiki or the FAQ?  You might even Google the "equivalence principle" by a guy named Einstein in his "general relativity" theory.  He will tell you how UA works.
We all know how the theory of UA works. The question is where does the force that pushing the flat earth come from?

Re: How FE'ers view scientist.
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2014, 06:36:22 AM »
Did you check the wiki or the FAQ?  You might even Google the "equivalence principle" by a guy named Einstein in his "general relativity" theory.  He will tell you how UA works.
We all know how the theory of UA works. The question is where does the force that pushing the flat earth come from?

I'd like to steer this discussion back to the spirit of the OP; a discussion about UA is better suited for a separate post in the “Debate” section.

Bringing things back to how FE supporters feel about scientists; I think previous posts by FE supporters have generally indicated that most scientists, particularly those outside of fields that directly deal with the shape of the earth, are more or less in the dark about the true shape of the earth just like the general public. Being a microbiologist and neuroscientist, my fields of study have nothing to do with earth’s shape; I and virtually all of my peers from every field of science see no controversy about the shape of the earth – it is accepted as a generally spherical body in space that orbits a star, one of many in the galaxy. This conclusion is straight forward for scientists of virtually any field thanks to our training in what is generally called the “scientific method” – a process of observation, hypothesis testing, rigorous statistical analysis of data, making appropriate comparisons of data, and generating relatively firm though not immutable conclusions that fuel further investigation. Thanks to this approach, the spherical earth is an inescapable conclusion for us.

So here’s my question: Given that scientists from all field regularly practice the “scientific method” we should be better equipped to see through the deception or confusion that has purportedly duped the public into believing the earth is spherical, so why do scientists universally come to see the world as a sphere if it is in fact flat?
Those who have an excessive faith in their theories or in their ideas are not only poorly disposed to make discoveries, but they also make very poor observations.
Claude Bernard, 1865