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Space and solar panels.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #210 on: March 19, 2014, 07:06:45 PM »
Quote from: Starman on March 19, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
The solid state by most part has no distortion. It does a perfect job to amplify the exact signal in was put in. That is the way it works.

Clipping is the main distortion you get from saturating a solid state device.  There are other distortions too. 
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BJ1234

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #211 on: March 19, 2014, 07:18:57 PM »
OK, so now we have concluded that sceptimatic does not believe that his theory can work.  I explained how it would happen in his theory and he strictly dismissed it without explaining why.

As for the thermos keeping something hot for hours, yes it does.  However, as explained earlier, they use reflective materials to reflect the IR waves back into the liquid.

I mean, the use of reflective materials is used frequently as insulation.  Why is some insulation backed with a reflective material if all it is doing if going in a wall?  It is to reflect incoming IR.  Why do the EMT's wrap someone going into shock with a thin mylar blanket to help them maintain their temperature?  It is to reflect the IR back to their body.

If you have something getting heated up solely by radiation, why would it not be able to cool down by radiation?  If half of the material is in the sunlight, and half is in the shade, it would be radiating approximately the same amount as it is absorbing.

Not sure why this concept is so hard to get.
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charles bloomington

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #212 on: March 19, 2014, 08:17:45 PM »
Quote from: airyfairy76 on March 19, 2014, 08:31:07 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2014, 02:17:25 AM
Can anyone explain how solar panels are cooled down in space? You see, what we are told about space, is that it's a virtual vacuum and heat can't be dissipated , so how can the thin strips of aluminium cool down or stay constant?

I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies for repeating anyone.  The ISS has a closed loop cooling system using liquid ammonia that absorbs the heat from all over the station, including the solar panels.

Running parallel to the panels are radiators, which disperse the collected heat from this cooling system into space, through thermal radiation (electromagnetic).
it will adsorb heat only when its a liquid.  but it has to become a gas to release it. Then compress back to a liquid if you want it to absorb more heat again.So are you saying the panels cooling system is working on refrigeration principles.?         
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #213 on: March 19, 2014, 08:20:12 PM »
I know the kind of thermos that you are referring to.  I had one and dropped it accidentally, and the glass was mirror like.  However, the thermos I have now is stainless steel and there is no reflective coating.  I have a vacuum travel mug on my desk as we speak almost identical to this one.  The outside of the mug stays cool to the touch, and the inside is not shinny at all.

I just put some tea in the mug.  I will let it sit for 10 minutes and I will check the temperature of the outer surface with a temperature gun. 
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markjo

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #214 on: March 19, 2014, 08:25:57 PM »
I'm still trying to figure out why Sceptimatic is arguing about answers to a question that he doesn't believe is possible in the first place.  If Scepti doesn't believe that there are any solar panels (satellites) in space in the first place, then why would he care about how they cool down?  It's like asking "how does CatDog poop?"
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #215 on: March 19, 2014, 08:35:45 PM »
The temperature of the desk the mug is sitting on is 71 F.  The base of the mug is 71 F.  The middle of the mug is 77 F and the top is 75 F.  The inner surface is over 150 F.  Why is the radiant energy not passing from the inner surface through the vacuum to the outer surface?

Also, how does catdog poop?
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Scintific Method

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #216 on: March 19, 2014, 08:55:05 PM »
Quote from: jroa on March 19, 2014, 08:35:45 PM
The temperature of the desk the mug is sitting on is 71 F.  The base of the mug is 71 F.  The middle of the mug is 77 F and the top is 75 F.  The inner surface is over 150 F.  Why is the radiant energy not passing from the inner surface through the vacuum to the outer surface?

Also, how does catdog poop?

Just wanted to point something out that doesn't seem to have been mentioned: temperature differential. The differential for your mug is about 70-80°F, whereas the differential for the cooling system of the ISS would be something like 600-1000°F. I'm sure most of you would know that, the higher the differential, the greater the flow of heat energy from high to low (ie the ISS cooling system can shed heat at a far greater rate than your coffee mug).


Also:
Quote from: charles bloomington on March 19, 2014, 08:17:45 PM
Quote from: airyfairy76 on March 19, 2014, 08:31:07 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2014, 02:17:25 AM
Can anyone explain how solar panels are cooled down in space? You see, what we are told about space, is that it's a virtual vacuum and heat can't be dissipated , so how can the thin strips of aluminium cool down or stay constant?

I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies for repeating anyone.  The ISS has a closed loop cooling system using liquid ammonia that absorbs the heat from all over the station, including the solar panels.

Running parallel to the panels are radiators, which disperse the collected heat from this cooling system into space, through thermal radiation (electromagnetic).
it will adsorb heat only when its a liquid.  but it has to become a gas to release it. Then compress back to a liquid if you want it to absorb more heat again.So are you saying the panels cooling system is working on refrigeration principles.?         

Matter can absorb heat in any state: solid, liquid, or gas. It can also release heat in any state. It may just be the way you worded it charles, but it looks like you don't understand refrigeration principles properly.
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BJ1234

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #217 on: March 19, 2014, 09:01:14 PM »
Quote from: jroa on March 19, 2014, 08:20:12 PM
I know the kind of thermos that you are referring to.  I had one and dropped it accidentally, and the glass was mirror like.  However, the thermos I have now is stainless steel and there is no reflective coating.  I have a vacuum travel mug on my desk as we speak almost identical to this one.  The outside of the mug stays cool to the touch, and the inside is not shinny at all.

I just put some tea in the mug.  I will let it sit for 10 minutes and I will check the temperature of the outer surface with a temperature gun.
So stainless steel isn't reflective?
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BJ1234

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #218 on: March 19, 2014, 09:04:52 PM »
Also, the side in the sun is also in a partial vacuum.  The only thing heating it up is radiant heat.  So why can't radiant heat also cool it down?
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #219 on: March 19, 2014, 09:29:17 PM »
Quote from: BJ1234 on March 19, 2014, 09:01:14 PM
So stainless steel isn't reflective?

It can be, but the inner surface of the mug, you know, the part that would reflect energy back to the liquid, is not shinny at all.

Quote from: BJ1234 on March 19, 2014, 09:04:52 PM
Also, the side in the sun is also in a partial vacuum.  The only thing heating it up is radiant heat.  So why can't radiant heat also cool it down?

It is being heated by something that is glowing hot.  Is the underside glowing hot?
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abaaaabbbb63

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #220 on: March 19, 2014, 10:05:42 PM »
Quote from: jroa on March 19, 2014, 09:29:17 PM
It is being heated by something that is glowing hot.  Is the underside glowing hot?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20140319080317AA21ho0
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #221 on: March 19, 2014, 10:24:37 PM »
That was a lazy post.  You could have at least added your own thoughts.  Anyway, the people answering the questions are mostly idiots.  Do you consider them to be experts?  These two were my favorites.

Quote
Solar panels on satellites are usually highly efficient. They convert more solar radiation into electricity. They do get heated but in space the side that opposes sun will be very cold and will assist cooling the panels

Quote
Space is cold, heat radiates away.
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abaaaabbbb63

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #222 on: March 19, 2014, 10:43:17 PM »
Quote from: jroa on March 19, 2014, 10:24:37 PM
That was a lazy post.  You could have at least added your own thoughts.  Anyway, the people answering the questions are mostly idiots.  Do you consider them to be experts?  These two were my favorites.

Quote
Solar panels on satellites are usually highly efficient. They convert more solar radiation into electricity. They do get heated but in space the side that opposes sun will be very cold and will assist cooling the panels

Quote
Space is cold, heat radiates away.

One is an Astronomy Enthusiast, and gives many details about the cooling systems that are used in satellites.

There's another one, with 26 years of experience in the Aerospace domain ( The domain I want to specialize in ), that confirms what I first said about the heat being irradiated into space.

People have no reason to lie.

P.S. And yes, it's morning here :D I'm lazy in the morning.
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BJ1234

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #223 on: March 19, 2014, 11:15:27 PM »
Quote from: jroa on March 19, 2014, 09:29:17 PM
Quote from: BJ1234 on March 19, 2014, 09:01:14 PM
So stainless steel isn't reflective?

It can be, but the inner surface of the mug, you know, the part that would reflect energy back to the liquid, is not shinny at all.
What about the inner surface of the outer shell?  Is that dull or is that reflective?

Quote
Quote from: BJ1234 on March 19, 2014, 09:04:52 PM
Also, the side in the sun is also in a partial vacuum.  The only thing heating it up is radiant heat.  So why can't radiant heat also cool it down?

It is being heated by something that is glowing hot.  Is the underside glowing hot?
Why would it need to be glowing hot?  On an electric stove, the element is glowing, yet the pan getting heated is not.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #224 on: March 20, 2014, 12:01:19 AM »
Quote from: BJ1234 on March 19, 2014, 11:15:27 PM
What about the inner surface of the outer shell?  Is that dull or is that reflective?

I don't know, I don't have x-ray vision.  I can not find any information for vacuum vessel having that surface shinny, so I would just assume not.

Quote from: BJ1234 on March 19, 2014, 11:15:27 PM
Why would it need to be glowing hot?  On an electric stove, the element is glowing, yet the pan getting heated is not.

Have you ever forgot something on the stove?  The pan will glow. 
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charles bloomington

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #225 on: March 20, 2014, 12:07:40 AM »
Quote from: jroa on March 19, 2014, 08:35:45 PM
The temperature of the desk the mug is sitting on is 71 F.  The base of the mug is 71 F.  The middle of the mug is 77 F and the top is 75 F.  The inner surface is over 150 F.  Why is the radiant energy not passing from the inner surface through the vacuum to the outer surface?

Also, how does catdog poop?
Well that's an easy on to answer. Cat-dogs a shit talker.  NASA cherished mascot.  ;D
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Salviati

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #226 on: March 20, 2014, 12:24:36 AM »
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 12:01:19 AM
Quote from: BJ1234 on March 19, 2014, 11:15:27 PM
What about the inner surface of the outer shell?  Is that dull or is that reflective?

I don't know, I don't have x-ray vision.  I can not find any information for vacuum vessel having that surface shinny, so I would just assume not.
Both surfaces that face the inner cavity are reflective. This keeps the content of the thermos either cold or hot. Of course you should assume yes, because is so that thermos work.





This shows 1907, but i'm aware that for Fe'ers 1907 is way too modern to accept.
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BJ1234

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #227 on: March 20, 2014, 12:26:44 AM »
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 12:01:19 AM
Quote from: BJ1234 on March 19, 2014, 11:15:27 PM
What about the inner surface of the outer shell?  Is that dull or is that reflective?

I don't know, I don't have x-ray vision.  I can not find any information for vacuum vessel having that surface shinny, so I would just assume not.

Quote from: BJ1234 on March 19, 2014, 11:15:27 PM
Why would it need to be glowing hot?  On an electric stove, the element is glowing, yet the pan getting heated is not.

Have you ever forgot something on the stove?  The pan will glow.
Well, why would you assume that?  I thought you guys never assumed anything.  Every piece of stainless steel I have seen is pretty reflective.  Intact, the inside of my thermos was fairly shiny prior to the years of use I've put it through.  I also have a stainless steel one.

As for the second point, it all depends on the amount of energy entering the pot versus the amount of energy leaving the pot.  It will eventually reach an equilibrium where the amount supplied by the element on the stove cannot physically supply more energy into the pot than is being dissipated from the pot. Why wouldn't the solar panels be designed in such a way as to be provided adequate cooling?
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ausGeoff

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #228 on: March 20, 2014, 12:50:13 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on March 19, 2014, 11:53:20 AM
Light is heat.


Light = electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength, whether visible or not.
Heat = energy which may be transferred from one body to another—according to the second law of thermodynamics.

Ergo; light  ≠ heat.  QED
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #229 on: March 20, 2014, 12:53:21 AM »
Quote from: Salviati on March 20, 2014, 12:24:36 AM
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 12:01:19 AM
Quote from: BJ1234 on March 19, 2014, 11:15:27 PM
What about the inner surface of the outer shell?  Is that dull or is that reflective?

I don't know, I don't have x-ray vision.  I can not find any information for vacuum vessel having that surface shinny, so I would just assume not.
Both surfaces that face the inner cavity are reflective. This keeps the content of the thermos either cold or hot. Of course you should assume yes, because is so that thermos work.





This shows 1907, but i'm aware that for Fe'ers 1907 is way too modern to accept.


Nice try, but both of those pictures have the reflective surface painted onto glass to keep infrared light from the liquid from penetrating the glass.  Are satellites made out of glass?  No?  They are made out of metal, like my thermos, are they not?
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Salviati

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #230 on: March 20, 2014, 12:58:48 AM »
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 12:53:21 AM
Nice try, but both of those pictures have the reflective surface painted onto glass to keep infrared light from the liquid from penetrating the glass.  Are satellites made out of glass?  No?  They are made out of metal, like my thermos, are they not?
...yawn...
You can put a reflective surface upon what you want, glass, metal, plastic, ceramics...
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #231 on: March 20, 2014, 01:00:09 AM »
Quote from: BJ1234 on March 20, 2014, 12:26:44 AM
Well, why would you assume that?  I thought you guys never assumed anything.  Every piece of stainless steel I have seen is pretty reflective.  Intact, the inside of my thermos was fairly shiny prior to the years of use I've put it through.  I also have a stainless steel one.
The inside of your glass thermos was shinny.  ::)

Quote from: BJ1234 on March 20, 2014, 12:26:44 AM
As for the second point, it all depends on the amount of energy entering the pot versus the amount of energy leaving the pot.  It will eventually reach an equilibrium where the amount supplied by the element on the stove cannot physically supply more energy into the pot than is being dissipated from the pot. Why wouldn't the solar panels be designed in such a way as to be provided adequate cooling?

The pot is heating the air around it.  A big pot will take longer to reach equilibrium because it has more surface area to contact the air around it.  How much air is around the solar panels on a satellite?
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #232 on: March 20, 2014, 01:02:26 AM »
Quote from: Salviati on March 20, 2014, 12:58:48 AM
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 12:53:21 AM
Nice try, but both of those pictures have the reflective surface painted onto glass to keep infrared light from the liquid from penetrating the glass.  Are satellites made out of glass?  No?  They are made out of metal, like my thermos, are they not?
...yawn...
You can put a reflective surface upon what you want, glass, metal, plastic, ceramics...

Yes, but it kind of defeats the purpose of reflecting the infrared light when it is painted onto the back of a surface that infrared light does not penetrate very well anyway, now doesn't it?  It is needed on glass because infrared light can penetrate it. 
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airyfairy76

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #233 on: March 20, 2014, 01:15:47 AM »
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 01:02:26 AM
Quote from: Salviati on March 20, 2014, 12:58:48 AM
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 12:53:21 AM
Nice try, but both of those pictures have the reflective surface painted onto glass to keep infrared light from the liquid from penetrating the glass.  Are satellites made out of glass?  No?  They are made out of metal, like my thermos, are they not?
...yawn...
You can put a reflective surface upon what you want, glass, metal, plastic, ceramics...

Yes, but it kind of defeats the purpose of reflecting the infrared light when it is painted onto the back of a surface that infrared light does not penetrate very well anyway, now doesn't it?  It is needed on glass because infrared light can penetrate it.

The back of what exactly, solar panels?

The reflective surface is not on the back, it IS the panels.  The grid you can see is the grid of photovoltaic cells.  The rest of the panel is the reflective surface, electroplated whatever metal they use.

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Salviati

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #234 on: March 20, 2014, 01:18:42 AM »
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 01:02:26 AM
Yes, but it kind of defeats the purpose of reflecting the infrared light when it is painted onto the back of a surface that infrared light does not penetrate very well anyway, now doesn't it?  It is needed on glass because infrared light can penetrate it.
It defeats absolutely nothing. If anything, if it's blocking IR rays this is just the job of a thermos, and if thermos exist it does mean they work and they don't defeat phisics laws, and i will not answer to these idiocies anymore.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #235 on: March 20, 2014, 01:23:36 AM »
Quote from: airyfairy76 on March 20, 2014, 01:15:47 AM
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 01:02:26 AM
Quote from: Salviati on March 20, 2014, 12:58:48 AM
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 12:53:21 AM
Nice try, but both of those pictures have the reflective surface painted onto glass to keep infrared light from the liquid from penetrating the glass.  Are satellites made out of glass?  No?  They are made out of metal, like my thermos, are they not?
...yawn...
You can put a reflective surface upon what you want, glass, metal, plastic, ceramics...

Yes, but it kind of defeats the purpose of reflecting the infrared light when it is painted onto the back of a surface that infrared light does not penetrate very well anyway, now doesn't it?  It is needed on glass because infrared light can penetrate it.

The back of what exactly, solar panels?

The reflective surface is not on the back, it IS the panels.  The grid you can see is the grid of photovoltaic cells.  The rest of the panel is the reflective surface, electroplated whatever metal they use.

We were talking about vacuum insulated vessels, like a thermoses, and the claim was made that the surface of the vacuum chamber was highly reflective on a metal thermos.  Please, keep up. 
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #236 on: March 20, 2014, 01:27:56 AM »
Quote from: Salviati on March 20, 2014, 01:18:42 AM
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 01:02:26 AM
Yes, but it kind of defeats the purpose of reflecting the infrared light when it is painted onto the back of a surface that infrared light does not penetrate very well anyway, now doesn't it?  It is needed on glass because infrared light can penetrate it.
It defeats absolutely nothing. If anything, if it's blocking IR rays this is just the job of a thermos, and if thermos exist it does mean they work and they don't defeat phisics laws, and i will not answer to these idiocies anymore.

So, now we are in agreement that dissipating heat in a vacuum does not work very well at all, right?
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airyfairy76

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #237 on: March 20, 2014, 01:35:59 AM »
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 01:23:36 AM
Quote from: airyfairy76 on March 20, 2014, 01:15:47 AM
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 01:02:26 AM
Quote from: Salviati on March 20, 2014, 12:58:48 AM
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 12:53:21 AM
Nice try, but both of those pictures have the reflective surface painted onto glass to keep infrared light from the liquid from penetrating the glass.  Are satellites made out of glass?  No?  They are made out of metal, like my thermos, are they not?
...yawn...
You can put a reflective surface upon what you want, glass, metal, plastic, ceramics...

Yes, but it kind of defeats the purpose of reflecting the infrared light when it is painted onto the back of a surface that infrared light does not penetrate very well anyway, now doesn't it?  It is needed on glass because infrared light can penetrate it.

The back of what exactly, solar panels?

The reflective surface is not on the back, it IS the panels.  The grid you can see is the grid of photovoltaic cells.  The rest of the panel is the reflective surface, electroplated whatever metal they use.

We were talking about vacuum insulated vessels, like a thermoses, and the claim was made that the surface of the vacuum chamber was highly reflective on a metal thermos.  Please, keep up.

You mentioned satellites - I assumed you were talking about the solar panels on such.

And I agree, I don't think my metal thermos is super shiny.  There will be some reflection back but in this case, stainless steel is a poor conductor of heat.  So a two layers of a poor conductor separated by a vacuum is efficient enough to keep your drinks hot or cold.

ETA - stainless steel thermos flasks are not as efficient as glass thermos flasks.  They were developed to withstand rougher handling, but a greater amount of heat is lost.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 02:29:09 AM by airyfairy76 »
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airyfairy76

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #238 on: March 20, 2014, 01:45:58 AM »
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 01:27:56 AM
Quote from: Salviati on March 20, 2014, 01:18:42 AM
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 01:02:26 AM
Yes, but it kind of defeats the purpose of reflecting the infrared light when it is painted onto the back of a surface that infrared light does not penetrate very well anyway, now doesn't it?  It is needed on glass because infrared light can penetrate it.
It defeats absolutely nothing. If anything, if it's blocking IR rays this is just the job of a thermos, and if thermos exist it does mean they work and they don't defeat phisics laws, and i will not answer to these idiocies anymore.

So, now we are in agreement that dissipating heat in a vacuum does not work very well at all, right?

How do you reach that conclusion? There is no stainless steel / reflective glass to prevent travel of IR rays in space.   Heat and light (as a whole) travel through a vacuum.  Reduce them by using steel / reflecting them back with a coating as you do in a flask is not indicative of how the radiation waves travel through space.

If the vacuum kept the heat in because heat cannot dissipate through it, you wouldn't need to paint a glass thermos silver.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 01:49:04 AM by airyfairy76 »
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Salviati

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Re: Space and solar panels.
« Reply #239 on: March 20, 2014, 01:47:47 AM »
Quote from: jroa on March 20, 2014, 01:27:56 AM
So, now we are in agreement that dissipating heat in a vacuum does not work very well at all, right?
No.
A) Dissipating heat in a vacuum works wery well when:
1) the radiating surface is facing open extraterrestrial space, this does mean with no fucking reflective coating that bounces IR rays back and
2) there is great temperature gradient (open space is only few grades above zero Kelvin) because due to Stephan-Boltzmann law the radiating surface emits IR rays but receives nearly nothing in exchange;

B) Dissipating heat in a vacuum doesn't work wery well when:
1) there is a fucking reflective coating that bounces IR rays back and
2) there isn't a great temperature gradient between inside and outside, that is, the content of the thermos and the environment.

Bottom line: orbiting satellites have nothing to do with thermoses, but this is a too hard concept to grasp to a fe'er.
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