"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2006, 06:03:10 AM »
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My point was that this comment is clearly false.


Why?

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Also false.


Why?

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Also false.


That's debateable, since "The opinions and beliefs expressed in any posts do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of The Flat Earth Society Forums", including yours. Your claim could be the one that's false. And I say it is.

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I'm sorry but not thinking that the FE this is a scientific theory, while your moderator does, is a difference in core beliefs. It makes a HELL of a difference.


That's still correct.

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beast

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« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2006, 06:05:37 AM »
Quote from: "bibicul"

The FE "theory" was defined as "scientific" by Erasmus. If you disagree with him, then you contradict FE beliefs and therefore are not an Fe'er (like you claim to be). Therefore your definitions, beast, do not stand in this context. Please refer to the explanation below (repeated):

The FE "theory" is claimed (by Erasmus, the voice of reason for FE'ers) to be a scienfitic theory. If you wish, I can paste the thread in which he states this explicitly


Quote from: "bibicul"
From my understanding and based on what is posted in the FAQ, Erasmus, not thebeast, presents the formal opinion upheld by this website.


Quote from: "FAQ"
The only person qualified to give the official position of the Forums (if required) is Daniel.

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2006, 06:07:57 AM »
Erasmus is an admin. His word represents more than yours. Furthermore, think of admins as a government. They should all agree on the big issues, or otherwise people can doubt the legitimacy of their actions / words. It's common sense.

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beast

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2006, 06:24:26 AM »
Quote from: "FAQ"
Also please remember that views of the Forum are not necessarily shared by the Forum Staff who come from both sides of The Flat/Sphere Debate

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2006, 06:26:04 AM »
Irrelevant. In the context, Erasmus was representing the FE view.

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Erasmus

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« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2006, 11:49:24 AM »
Hm.  It would appear that I am the subject of much controversy.  Awesome!

So, firstly, my views are not the official views of this forum or of FEism in any way.  I act on this forum sometimes in my capacity as admin, but much more often in my capacity as a smartass.  Hopefully it is obvious which is which in any given situation.  As such, beast's interpretation of FE theory is at least as valid as mine.

As for this claim that I said that FE is a scientific theory; obviously this is not the case.  FEism is not investigated using the scientific method, but rather a much more restrictive method.  However, in distinguishing between two different sorts of theories -- the mathematical kind and the kind that are developed by the scientific method -- FE falls more into the latter.  The important point is not that FE is scientific, but rather, that it is not purely mathematical in nature.

For reference, I'm including the post that I'm guessing bibicul is talking about:

Quote from: "I"
You're conflating "theory" in mathematics (what Einstein was talking about) with "theory" in science (which is what FEism is). Mathematical theories are formal -- they are sets of theorems derived according to strict rules from axioms. Scientific theories are informal -- they are sets of statements that we just sorta picked because they seem to work out nicely.


"Scientific" theories and "zetetic" theories are similar in that they are not mathematical theories.  That's a different use of the word "theory", not to be confused with the difference between science and FEism (in which case the definition of "theory" is the same.)
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2006, 05:22:21 AM »
Hmm, your explanations raise more questions than answers, since you did nothing but say vague things.

There are the following types of formal theories: mathematical, scientific, "theories as models", critical (social and literary), and musical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory).

The common usage of the word "theory" is purely informal and can refer to anything, just like informally "gay" could refer to someone who isn't necessarily homosexual; however, when you bring into the equation descriptions, explanations, or models of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, you're talking about a scientific model. We know that FE'ism is not mathematical, critical or musical. Therefore it's either scientific or a "theory as a model". Both of those are based on axioms which you don't have (and if you remember, you agreed yourself in the post which you've cited that the axioms of the FE "theory" are its observations), and for that the burden of proof falls on RE'ers (who, paradoxically, don't actually exist). So far there hasn't been any proof for your statements. Now, if you go back and read my "Analysis 2" and the conclusion, you will see exactly how this post ties into that one.

Furthermore, I don't see how you (Erasmus) can argue that the FE "theory" is not scientific when you specifically stated that it was scientific in an ealier post. It's as simple as that. How could beasts' argument be just as valid as yours since it's contradicting yours? Or are you contradicting yourself?

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FEism is not investigated using the scientific method, but rather a much more restrictive method


How convenient! A scientific model that is not investigated using the scientific method... what makes it an exception?

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Erasmus

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« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2006, 11:31:18 AM »
Quote from: "bibicul"
The common usage of the word "theory" is purely informal and can refer to anything, just like informally "gay" could refer to someone who isn't necessarily homosexual; however, when you bring into the equation descriptions, explanations, or models of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, you're talking about a scientific model.


Well, we're not applying the "common" usage, and it's not clear to me that FEism is judged by its advocates on the basis of predictive power.  That being a central component of a scientific theory, if I'm right it would show that FEism is not a scientific theory.

Since FEism is based on observation though I would be willing to go as far as labelling it an "empirical" theory.

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We know that FE'ism is not mathematical, critical or musical. Therefore it's either scientific or a "theory as a model".


False dichotomy.  There are also "zetetic" theories.

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Furthermore, I don't see how you (Erasmus) can argue that the FE "theory" is not scientific when you specifically stated that it was scientific in an ealier post.


Not only did I explain in my previous post, you even quoted the explanation in your own post.

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How convenient! A scientific model that is not investigated using the scientific method... what makes it an exception?


An exception to what?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2006, 12:44:09 AM »
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False dichotomy. There are also "zetetic" theories.


By definition, a zetetic theory is an example of a circular argument, and therefore a good example of a logical fallacy, which is precisely what I said in my hypothesis. The following is an extract from the introduction to Samuel Birley Rowbotham's book by John Bruno Hare (http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/index.htm):

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To make his system work he had to throw out a great deal of science, including the scientific method itself, using instead what he calls a 'Zetetic' method. As far as I can see this is simply a license to employ circular reasoning (e.g., the earth is flat, hence we can see distant lighthouses, hence the earth is flat).


Further comments:

1) The author, Samuel Birley Rowbotham, conveniently "invented" a new type of "theory" when he came up with his "flat earth" description(hence his characterization "eccentric English inventor" on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth_society). As you can see, this theory was proved to be inconsistent, and therefore "zetetic" came to refer to just the FE "theory".

2) We can conclude that whether the FE model is defined to be scientific or zetetic, it is still emplying logical fallacies as means of debate, and therefore fails to make a statement. FE'ers, for your sake you should try to argue that the FE model was scientific, not zetetic; at least in that case you could still find some arguments, however poor they are.

With regards to your method of arguing, Erasmus, you've been proven wrong: once you called the FE model "scientific", then you re-evaluated your position and called the model "zetetic" in a different post. I would suggest a little more consistency, otherwise you will not be taken seriously] by your readers.

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An exception to what?


An exception to the scientific method, of course.

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tylerngataki

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Re: "FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2006, 02:20:56 AM »
Quote from: "bibicul"
Conclusions:

There are 2 conclusions that can be drawn from the analysis presented above:
    1) Since FE’ers use logical falacies (in the form of negative proofs) in their arguments, and since they believe that the burden of proof lies with RE’ers, their arguments automatically fail. In other words, nobody needs to disprove anything in the FE “theory” since it hasn’t even been proved.
    2) The only way that the FE “theory” can become a theory is if FE’ers find other ways to argue, for example by providing evidence for their claims (rather than saying “there is a government conspiracy because there is no proof that there isn’t a government cospiracy”).


THANK YOU!!!! An intelligent post! I just ignore anything from 'Beast' because seems to be a complete idiot. It is so weird that they completely think tey are right, and strongly believe in it and there is no proof what so ever and more than enough to prove them wrong. They won't even consider they are wrong.

They also try to win arguements by accusing you of being a conspirator! THEY ARE PARANOID

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beast

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2006, 02:30:15 AM »
I love you too.

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2006, 02:46:04 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
I love you too.


Yep, completely off-topic. The guy just wants to reply to everything.

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beast

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2006, 02:49:32 AM »
I don't see how it was off topic.  The guy just called me a complete idiot - I felt like I had a right to reply.

Here's an experiement for you.

While you seem slightly intelligent, you are obviously too simple minded and gullible to know what is serious and what isn't.  This reflects on your intelligence, making you look stupid.

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2006, 02:53:09 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
I don't see how it was off topic.  The guy just called me a complete idiot - I felt like I had a right to reply.

Here's an experiement for you.

While you seem slightly intelligent, you are obviously too simple minded and gullible to know what is serious and what isn't.  This reflects on your intelligence, making you look stupid.


Actually I've been reading quite a few threads today, many in which you were attempting to crack jokes. I've also noticed that numerous people replied to your posts implying that your jokes were simply lame; so was your last one, and my response intended to point that out.

Oh, and now you're getting all mad, as usual! There, there...

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beast

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2006, 02:54:26 AM »
That wasn't a joke it was an experiement.

I essentially insulted you and OMG you responded.  

Just like I did...

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2006, 02:57:13 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
That wasn't a joke it was an experiement.

I essentially insulted you and OMG you responded.  

Just like I did...


1) That makes no sense.
2) I didn't see any insults in your post, just the opinion of a fool.

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woopedazz

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2006, 02:59:59 AM »
ur face doesnt make sense!

swish!

(that could either be the sound of a basketball shot that goes in...or quite possibly a "swing and a miss" in baseball)

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2006, 03:06:43 AM »
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ur face doesnt make sense!


Of course it doesn't, you've never seen it you crazy person! Nor would I want you to b/c I'd probably get scared shitless that you will go apeshit on me.

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2006, 04:34:09 AM »
Since most of the lasts posts were off-topic, I feel obliged to repost my last relevant argument, hoping that Erasmus and the rest of the community reads and understands it:

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False dichotomy. There are also "zetetic" theories.


By definition, a zetetic theory is an example of a circular argument, and therefore a good example of a logical fallacy, which is precisely what I said in my hypothesis. The following is an extract from the introduction to Samuel Birley Rowbotham's book by John Bruno Hare (http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/index.htm):

Quote
To make his system work he had to throw out a great deal of science, including the scientific method itself, using instead what he calls a 'Zetetic' method. As far as I can see this is simply a license to employ circular reasoning (e.g., the earth is flat, hence we can see distant lighthouses, hence the earth is flat).


Further comments:

1) The author, Samuel Birley Rowbotham, conveniently "invented" a new type of "theory" when he came up with his "flat earth" description(hence his characterization "eccentric English inventor" on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth_society). As you can see, this theory was proved to be inconsistent, and therefore "zetetic" came to refer to just the FE "theory".

2) We can conclude that whether the FE model is defined to be scientific or zetetic, it is still employing logical fallacies as means of debate, and therefore fails to make a statement. FE'ers, for your sake you should try to argue that the FE model was scientific, not zetetic; at least in that case you could still find some arguments, however poor they are.

With regards to your method of arguing, Erasmus, you've been proven wrong: once you called the FE model "scientific", then you re-evaluated your position and called the model "zetetic" in a different post. I would suggest a little more consistency, otherwise you will not be taken seriously by your readers.

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An exception to what?


An exception to the scientific method, of course.

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beast

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Re: "FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2006, 06:05:22 AM »
Quote from: "tylerngataki"
I just ignore anything from 'Beast' because seems to be a complete idiot.


Quote from: "beast"
I love you too.


Quote from: "bibicul"
Yep, completely off-topic. The guy just wants to reply to everything.


Quote from: "beast"
I don't see how it was off topic. The guy just called me a complete idiot - I felt like I had a right to reply.

Here's an experiment for you.

While you seem slightly intelligent, you are obviously too simple minded and gullible to know what is serious and what isn't. This reflects on your intelligence, making you look stupid.


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Oh, and now you're getting all mad, as usual! There, there...


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I essentially insulted you and OMG you responded.

Just like I did...



Is that really hard for you to understand?

edit: fixed bbcode.

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2006, 06:09:07 AM »
Yes, it makes absolutely no sense.

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beast

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2006, 06:10:22 AM »
Quote from: "bibicul"
Yes, it makes absolutely no sense.


Oh well.  Sucks to be you then.

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2006, 06:17:05 AM »
No, it really doesn't suck to win arguments against you all the time. It feels alright.

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beast

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2006, 06:21:28 AM »
lol.  You are entitled to your own opinions - if you think you win arguments against me then good for you, I'm glad you feel good about it.  I suspect you've never actually competed in debating competitions or know what winning an argument actually means but it's no big deal.  Your perspective doesn't really effect my perspective - especially considering how gullible you are.

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TheEngineer

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2006, 07:17:18 AM »
Honestly, why do you guys even bother with biblicul?  He never says anything worthwhile, he doesn't back up anything he says and he believes himself to be right when everyone shows (with supporting evidence!) that he is wrong. Yet, he never admits to it, then whole heartedly persists to dig himself an even deeper grave.

That's why I don't bother with him anymore.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2006, 07:21:37 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Honestly, why do you guys even bother with biblicul?  He never says anything worthwhile, he doesn't back up anything he says and he believes himself to be right when everyone shows (with supporting evidence!) that he is wrong. Yet, he never admits to it, then whole heartedly persists to dig himself an even deeper grave.

That's why I don't bother with him anymore.


Honestly, you're just a sad, bitter man. This thread has been reviewed by many people who don't share your opinion and actually think that what I said was valid. I backed up all of my claims. Just because you come here and read the last post, then post personal attacks because that's all your brain allows you to do - that doesn't make your statements any stronger. They are still weak and pathetic, since you defend your precious FE "theory" using Einstein's Theory of Relativity and many other concepts that are technically part of the "conspiracy".

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2006, 07:24:01 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
lol.  You are entitled to your own opinions - if you think you win arguments against me then good for you, I'm glad you feel good about it.  I suspect you've never actually competed in debating competitions or know what winning an argument actually means but it's no big deal.  Your perspective doesn't really effect my perspective - especially considering how gullible you are.


In fact I've been in numerous debating competitions. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on this forum, not that this fact affects our current conversation. However, your continuous struggle to take things out of context and refer to petty words instead of focusing on the essence clearly shows that you are, indeed, "special".

Oh, and you overuse the word "gullible". I guess your vocabulary is also extremely limited, just like your mindset.

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Erasmus

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2006, 07:26:52 AM »
Quote from: "bibicul"
In fact I've been in numerous debating competitions.


Here, let me pat you on the back... I wouldn't want you to strain your arm.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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bibicul

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2006, 07:29:35 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "bibicul"
In fact I've been in numerous debating competitions.


Here, let me pat you on the back... I wouldn't want you to strain your arm.


Lol. Why don't you take a look at my response to your ridiculous claims before you pat me on the back? Then maybe you and I can actually engage in a debate rather than exchanging pointless remarks springing from your obvious frustration.

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Erasmus

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"FE'ISM" DOES NOT WORK
« Reply #89 on: November 08, 2006, 07:38:23 AM »
Quote from: "bibicul"
maybe you and I can actually engage in a debate


Haha, I doubt it.

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rather than exchanging pointless remarks springing from your obvious frustration.


Ah, that's the spot right there!  Does that feel good?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?