Flight Paths

jroa, is this what you are having trouble understanding ? I am trying to make some sense of this thread. There really is no reason to question flight paths.

No, once again, I will try to explain.  I have no doubt that aircraft can be and are tracked.  What I am saying that you have to take the word of the airlines as to what the Earth beneath the planes is actually shaped like. 

Quote from: Googleotomy on February 15, 2014, 06:07:13 PM

jroa, is this what you are having trouble understanding ? I am trying to make some sense of this thread. There really is no reason to question flight paths.

No, once again, I will try to explain.  I have no doubt that aircraft can be and are tracked.  What I am saying that you have to take the word of the airlines as to what the Earth beneath the planes is actually shaped like.

I realize that after all, this is the Flat Earth Society Forum.

But there is no greater proof of the shape of the world than in flight paths and Air Traffic Control. There have to be maps and they have to be made from and based on a "Round Earth." It's not just the airlines that you have to take their word. This has been explained in numerous posts. IMHO To the rest of the world, the question of the  validity and accuracy of flight paths is one of the most inane threads about the so-called conspiracy that I have yet to see on this forum. ROFLOL.

Can you prove how these flight paths would work on a Flat Earth Map if there really is no such thing as a Flat Earth Map, much less an accurate one ?

The flight paths are displayed on a flat map.  The Earth could be any shape and this flat map is just a convenience, so it really is not proof one way or the other for the shape of the Earth.  We are just supposed to take their word that the flat map represents a round world.  Do you see my point now? 

The flight paths are displayed on a flat map.  The Earth could be any shape and this flat map is just a convenience, so it really is not proof one way or the other for the shape of the Earth.  We are just supposed to take their word that the flat map represents a round world.  Do you see my point now?

Just a few passing remarks before shutting down for the night.:

1.On any other place than this forum it would be "common knowledge" that all flat maps are made from various projections of a globe - or in the Flat Earth reference a "Round Earth." Depending on how many "9's" you put after the   decimal point you put after it 99.99999999999 % of the world knows this to be true. There is no question of the accuracy of flight paths in the real world.For example, FAA Sectional Charts are made from segments from a Round Earth and are limited in area to minimize any distortion.

2. For example.:How could you possibly make an accurate map of a flight path in the southern hemisphere from the so-called "Unipolar Flat Earth Map ?" Or for that matter the "Bi Polar" or "Antarctica as a Continent" map ? If you were to make a Sectional Chart for flight paths in Australia from the flat earth map of the world  for example it would have all the distortions as in the flat earth map of the world.

3.Can you explain why the so-called Flat Earth Map is or is not simply a map made by one method of a projection from a gobe or "Round Earth ?"

4.jroa : By your signature line would that be inferring that the mentality level of Flat Earthers is second grade level ?

My apologies for intruding on this website. My excuse is that I am simply too much of a realist who works in the real world.

Quote from: jroa on February 10, 2014, 09:57:11 PM

How do we know what our flight path is?  We just take the word of the airlines, now don't we?

I'm 99% sure that all private/commercial pilots could tell you exactly what their flight paths were. If they were flying VFR( Visual flight rules) over a large land mas such as Australia or Europe, they would fly a great circle path (when travelling east-west) and you could see this by visually observing cities and landmarks.  I could see why there would be ambiguity of your whereabouts over sea. But these ideas could easily be proven over land.

I guess another thing about flight paths is that they don't really prove anything as routes are determined by where VOR stations and control centers operate or are found. Planes don't usually fly in straight lines which are the shortest path.

No commercial aircraft flys VFR, they all fly IFR regardless of visibility.

That said, you could confirm flight path by taking a hand held GPS on board...

They do not lie about flight paths as there has to be aircraft separation, so in the flight planning stage and when given Air Clearance just before they get take of clearance, they are cleared for various routes, attitudes etc... so when they are out of radar range, they do not fly into each other.

You can walk into any pilot shop and get the documentation with all the air routes in it.  They are all labelled and you just get allocated one prior to flight.

Finally, if you are flying over a familiar area, then look out the window.. that will confirm the route.. well, for us realists, for you FEers you'd think that you're in a simulator or some other weird ass conspiracy! lol

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 12, 2014, 05:19:00 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 11, 2014, 10:34:42 PM

Isn't that the same as taking their word for it?

No.  But why is this a problem?  Do you think all 230 major airlines are lying to you?  Airlines come and go all the time - why do new ones immedietely join such an inane conspiracy?

Here's how Flight Radar does it's tracking:

Quote

Flightradar24 is a flight tracker that shows live air traffic from around the world. Flightradar24 combines data from several data sources including ADS-B, MLAT and FAA. The ADS-B, MLAT and FAA data is aggregated together with schedule and flight status data from airlines and airports to create a unique flight tracking experience on www.flightradar24.com and in Flightradar24 apps.

Then

Quote

ADS-B
How ADS-B works

The primary technology that we use to receive flight information is called automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B). The ADS-B technology itself is best explained by the image to the right.

Aircraft gets its location from a GPS navigation source (satellite)

The ADS-B transponder on aircraft transmits signal containing the location (and much more)

ADS-B signal is picked up by a receiver connected to Flightradar24
Receiver feeds data to Flightradar24

Data is shown on www.flightradar24.com and in Flightradar24 apps

Today, roughly 60% of all passenger aircraft (70% in Europe, 30% in the US) are equipped with an ADS-B transponder. This percentage is steadily increasing as ADS-B is set to replace radar as the primary surveillance method for controlling aircraft.

Do you think the transponders are in on the conspiracy as well?

You must live in a very weird world, with all these thousands of organisations conspiring against little old you.

I see.  So you do want me to just take their word for it.

Jnoa, I think you have some very serious problems which I think you should address.  To be this paranoid about everything is very unhealthy.  To be so paranoid about things you can so easily check for yourself and yet still be paranoid.. I think you need something more professional than the ramblings on this forum....

I've ridiculed you a lot here the last couple of days and in hindsight, i wish i hadnt..  i really thought you were taking the piss.. but clearly i was wrong - I beg you, please go see someone.

Quote from: inquisitive on February 14, 2014, 10:38:56 AM

You do not know any engineers who do query everything.  It is you who cannot explain why we do not see a rising horizon, satellites, Voyager spacecraft, a map of the earth etc.

Good job moving the goal posts, once again.  Every time you get backed into a corner, you completely change the subject.  I am temped to start issuing you with warnings.

Your warnings are utterly meaningless.

Quote from: glokta on February 14, 2014, 10:50:30 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 10:41:05 AM

Good job moving the goal posts, once again.  Every time you get backed into a corner, you completely change the subject.  I am temped to start issuing you with warnings.

like comparing engineers being unwitting members of a conspiracy with doctors historicaly using leeches until a better technique was found? The blood letting for health benefits model didnt work so was improved upon. The round earth model works, and is yet to be improved upon. In the slightest. By anyone.

My analogy is sound.  People believe what they are taught in school, whether or it not it is true.  It does not matter if it works or not, the person believes it works and makes reality work around it.

That's a very interesting comment.. we make reality fit to our beliefs?

So given we are talking flight paths here and this is something i know a little about.. I can safely say that when i plan a trip from melbourne to sydney for instance....  the following things happen..

Using a map, I can find out the bearing (&heading with weather data added) and distance to Sydney.

With a departure time, i can calculate an arrival time - regulations say, my accuracy must be plus or minus 1 minute.

Now, if I fly that planned route, even with cloud cover al the way underneath me, a strange thing happens... assuming im not some sort of noob, The plane pops out of cloud, above Sydney exactly when i planned it to be - unless the winds forcast were different - which in that case I'd have altered my flight plan and updated.

Now, there is one thing I can confidently say.. I didnt move Sydney to fit my belief.. Sydney, is rather stuck in place..  No one that I can think of, except maybe a FEer, can just pick Sydney up and move it to a more convenient location so that I can feel nice and fluffy about my delusional beliefs.

So, how pray tell, do we utilize known data (maps) plan flight using them, and have some accurate and predicable outcomes.. when we actually DONT alter reality to fit out 'beliefs'?   

Eh, that's a very messy bit of writing, but I can't be bothered rewriting it.. I hope it makes sense!?

I never said that people can not plan a flight if the Earth is round, now did I?  In fact, I even told you about my coworker who plans flights with a map and string, do you remember that?  You are putting a lot of words into my mouth.  It is funny that you spent so much time typing that post and it was really just a waste of time.   

So, in 70 years, the technology could not have possibly improved, right? 

No, it's called physics, you cant get a 3D location (Altitude) using a ground based system. Plus you don't get the range needed to even get 2D....

Much like, you can't make gold out of water.. it's called physics.

I could project the positions of the air craft onto a cube.  Does that mean that the Earth is a cube?  I don't think so. 

Sorry for being vague, if I was.  I am not doing it on purpose.  I will try not to be in the future.

I may be able to clear this up very easily for you.

Goto http://www.flightradar24.com and zoom into wherever your location happens to be.  Wait for a plane to go over head your house.. run out side and look up.

If you have an iPhone download the app instead and you can do the lot of it outside.

That will confirm without a shadow of doubt that the transponder info, map info and actual real world - all agree with each other.

Hope this helps.

Me--They had positioning signals back in the 40s.
RE--Oh yeah, now we have satellites.
Me--How do we know they are satellites?
RE--Because of the "S" at the end of "GPS".
Me--headache.

    FE Logic..

Quote from: jroa on February 14, 2014, 03:01:06 PM

Are you saying that LORAN can not calculate altitude?

that is my understanding - am happy to be corrected if i am mistaken.

LORAN is very outdated but is still used a little primarily in marine application where altitude data is not needed.  During WW2 some aircraft used them in limited applications. No aircraft use them today becuase

1. they are extremely inaccurate (about 400 meters)
2. Transmitters are relatively short range
3. The system only gives you long/lat coordinates.. not Altitude.
4. We have GPS now lol - which addresses ALL the shortcomings of LORAN - even in its most current form.

Quote from: ausGeoff on February 15, 2014, 09:43:04 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 15, 2014, 09:16:29 AM

Are you watching it with your bare eyes, or are you using some type of satellite tracking app?  The reason I ask is because, generally speaking, you do not often get to see a satellite travel completely from one horizon to another when it flies directly over your head.

Watching with naked eyes from the southern-most point (almost) of Australia.  I should've mentioned it wasn't directly overhead, so didn't traverse fully from one horizon to the other—rather an arc of the horizon, before it was lost from view behind a low mountain range.

COSMOS 2227   MAG 5.0, Starts at 12º NNE.  Although it was a fairly low magnitude, where I live in the sticks there's zero atmospheric and/or light pollution.

I spotted a faint object a few nights ago while relaxing outside, and checked the app on my iPhone to see what it was (it clearly wasn't a plane). Turns out it was a bit of space junk; a rocket body specifically. I sat there for a while and watched it drift steadily across the sky until it was no longer visible. Just thought you might find that interesting.

Ooohhh!! Which App? I'd love to download it myself..

I never said that people can not plan a flight if the Earth is round, now did I?  In fact, I even told you about my coworker who plans flights with a map and string, do you remember that?  You are putting a lot of words into my mouth.  It is funny that you spent so much time typing that post and it was really just a waste of time.   

Do you ever sleep?

You constantly say that the the earth is flat, and that the data we attribute to a round earth is wrong.  I am asking how it is that all the data, tools, projections, predictions that we use.. work..

yet you provide nothing to refute them?

The data is not wrong.  You just wrongly assume the data to show points on a globe, when the data could in fact be points on any shape. 

no, not really lol

I asked you somewhere else.. do you sleep ever?

Never while I am at work. 

do you work a lot then?

YOu seem to be here a lot..

Edit:  wait a sec... what do you do for work? is your job to post here?!

Daniel pays me well.   

Seriously, though, I work long shifts at night, and I have a lot of free time on my hands. 

Daniel pays me well.   

Seriously, though, I work long shifts at night, and I have a lot of free time on my hands.

haha.. fair enough then..

Quote from: Scintific Method on February 15, 2014, 01:18:11 PM

Quote from: ausGeoff on February 15, 2014, 09:43:04 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 15, 2014, 09:16:29 AM

Are you watching it with your bare eyes, or are you using some type of satellite tracking app?  The reason I ask is because, generally speaking, you do not often get to see a satellite travel completely from one horizon to another when it flies directly over your head.

Watching with naked eyes from the southern-most point (almost) of Australia.  I should've mentioned it wasn't directly overhead, so didn't traverse fully from one horizon to the other—rather an arc of the horizon, before it was lost from view behind a low mountain range.

COSMOS 2227   MAG 5.0, Starts at 12º NNE.  Although it was a fairly low magnitude, where I live in the sticks there's zero atmospheric and/or light pollution.

I spotted a faint object a few nights ago while relaxing outside, and checked the app on my iPhone to see what it was (it clearly wasn't a plane). Turns out it was a bit of space junk; a rocket body specifically. I sat there for a while and watched it drift steadily across the sky until it was no longer visible. Just thought you might find that interesting.

Ooohhh!! Which App? I'd love to download it myself..

It's called SkyView. It works off GPS and the gyros in the iPhone to show an overlay of celestial objects, be they natural or man made. Reasonably good, and a reasonable price for the paid version from what I remember (there's a free version too). Enjoy!

Thank you!  I shall install it now and play 

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 12, 2014, 05:19:00 AM

Quote from: jroa on February 11, 2014, 10:34:42 PM

Isn't that the same as taking their word for it?

No.  But why is this a problem?  Do you think all 230 major airlines are lying to you?  Airlines come and go all the time - why do new ones immedietely join such an inane conspiracy?

Here's how Flight Radar does it's tracking:

Quote

Flightradar24 is a flight tracker that shows live air traffic from around the world. Flightradar24 combines data from several data sources including ADS-B, MLAT and FAA. The ADS-B, MLAT and FAA data is aggregated together with schedule and flight status data from airlines and airports to create a unique flight tracking experience on www.flightradar24.com and in Flightradar24 apps.

Then

Quote

ADS-B
How ADS-B works

The primary technology that we use to receive flight information is called automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B). The ADS-B technology itself is best explained by the image to the right.

Aircraft gets its location from a GPS navigation source (satellite)

The ADS-B transponder on aircraft transmits signal containing the location (and much more)

ADS-B signal is picked up by a receiver connected to Flightradar24
Receiver feeds data to Flightradar24

Data is shown on www.flightradar24.com and in Flightradar24 apps

Today, roughly 60% of all passenger aircraft (70% in Europe, 30% in the US) are equipped with an ADS-B transponder. This percentage is steadily increasing as ADS-B is set to replace radar as the primary surveillance method for controlling aircraft.

Do you think the transponders are in on the conspiracy as well?

You must live in a very weird world, with all these thousands of organisations conspiring against little old you.

I see.  So you do want me to just take their word for it.

Are you not asking us to take your word for it that they're making their flight paths up?

I would love to be you, man - you much get such a buzz out of this relentless contrarianism, there can't be another reason why you'd posted 14,000 plus times...

I wonder if he's referred to flight radar 24 yet and looked up?

I wonder if he's referred to flight radar 24 yet and looked up?

If the airlines are making up flight plans and then continuing the fraud to such an extent that they are misinforming the app companies who, in turn, are lying to their customers (even though you can verify the information by looking up and seeing the plane you're following) then who knows who else is complict? All phones companies - definitely, most governments - certainly, everyone you've ever met or even heard of? - quite probably...

Yep.. or in this case, Ockhams Razor covers it quite well, as much as it's over quoted... I think the idea fits this nicely.

Yep.. or in this case, Ockhams Razor covers it quite well, as much as it's over quoted... I think the idea fits this nicely.

I'm as committed to the idea of the simplest answer probably being the right one as jroa and his cronies are to wilfully evasive illogicality

For the last time, the path that the plane flies is not made up; the shape of the ground under the plane is what I am questioning.  You assume that, just because we know the path a plane has flown, somehow it means that the Earth must be round.  The flight path is projected on a flat map and you just assume it represents a round Earth and somehow this is proof of something? 

This is an interesting animated graphic showing numerous actual flight paths projected on to a NASA representation of the earth.  It only runs for 60 seconds, but covers a lot of ground—literally LOL.
 
 
 
#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">International Flights from MIA, ORD, LAX and JFK
 
 
You can play it full screen by clicking on the "square" icon at the bottom right-hand corner (for non-YouTube users).