Why can you RE'ers see this house.

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2014, 06:31:21 PM »
Hoppy, the roundies will try to have you believe a photo from sea level then another from a higher level is what is needed.
Much more interesting are photos with variations of all weather conditions, that's when odd things occur.
Feel free to take some pictures yourself of your observations Tappet, and share them here.

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2014, 06:34:42 PM »
Sci,
Your diagram is not what is happening.  Draw a picture of a FLAT circle and show the angles as the altitude above the flat plane increases.

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BJ1234

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2014, 06:37:51 PM »
Please add that diagram to the list of diagrams you need to draw Earth.

BTW, how is that diagram of the tennis ball being obscured by the floor from across the living room going?

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rottingroom

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2014, 06:38:11 PM »
Sci,
Your diagram is not what is happening.  Draw a picture of a FLAT circle and show the angles as the altitude above the flat plane increases.

Why would we do a flat circle. The point of the experiment is to test whether or not we are on a sphere. So we test against data about sphere's.

There really isn't much to do if we did the experiment in reverse as you are saying. I should be able to see downtown San Diego from my house, but it doesn't work that way.

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2014, 06:48:41 PM »
Sci,
Your diagram is not what is happening.  Draw a picture of a FLAT circle and show the angles as the altitude above the flat plane increases.
Show us how it's done then.

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Scintific Method

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #125 on: January 21, 2014, 07:20:19 PM »
Sci,
Your diagram is not what is happening.  Draw a picture of a FLAT circle and show the angles as the altitude above the flat plane increases.

What would be the point of that? Visible distance over a flat circle from any altitude: infinite. Portion of object obscured when viewed over a flat circle: zero.
Quote from: jtelroy
...the FE'ers still found a way to deny it. Not with counter arguments. Not with proof of any kind. By simply denying it.

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #126 on: January 21, 2014, 07:22:26 PM »
Please add that diagram to the list of diagrams you need to draw Earth.

BTW, how is that diagram of the tennis ball being obscured by the floor from across the living room going?
It's going great.   ;D  I'll post it tomorrow.

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #127 on: January 21, 2014, 07:28:26 PM »
Why would we do a flat circle. The point of the experiment is to test whether or not we are on a sphere. So we test against data about sphere's.

There really isn't much to do if we did the experiment in reverse as you are saying. I should be able to see downtown San Diego from my house, but it doesn't work that way.
I give up trying to explain it to you Rot.  You would have to be able to see THROUGH all the stuff in your line of vision that is higher than you are.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 07:30:31 PM by EarthIsASpaceship »

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rottingroom

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #128 on: January 21, 2014, 07:40:25 PM »
Why would we do a flat circle. The point of the experiment is to test whether or not we are on a sphere. So we test against data about sphere's.

There really isn't much to do if we did the experiment in reverse as you are saying. I should be able to see downtown San Diego from my house, but it doesn't work that way.
I give up trying to explain it to you Rot.  You would have to be able to see THROUGH all the stuff in your line of vision that is higher than you are.

I don't disagree with that. Don't pretend that you don't like talking to me for any reason other than that I pwn you.

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #129 on: January 21, 2014, 07:46:12 PM »
Pwn?  I had to look that one up.  Sorry, I don't play video games enough to know terminology of that sort.  And the closest I've come to computer hacking is the movie Hackers.
Oh and Wargames.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 07:47:59 PM by EarthIsASpaceship »

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rottingroom

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #130 on: January 21, 2014, 08:11:25 PM »
Pwn?  I had to look that one up.  Sorry, I don't play video games enough to know terminology of that sort.  And the closest I've come to computer hacking is the movie Hackers.
Oh and Wargames.

I'm just joking anyway. Have a good night spaceship.

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ausGeoff

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #131 on: January 22, 2014, 05:11:27 AM »
  Draw a picture of a FLAT circle and show the angles as the altitude above the flat plane increases.

Uh... we're not talking about a flat, circular plane here.  The diagram illustrates the phenomenon  as it occurs on a sphere (or the earth).

It's counter-intuitive to shift the goalposts midway through the argument.

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #132 on: January 22, 2014, 05:22:39 AM »
But the Earth is NOT a sphere.  So it IS counterintuitive.

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rottingroom

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #133 on: January 22, 2014, 05:54:02 AM »
But the Earth is NOT a sphere.  So it IS counterintuitive.

Famous FE last words. No need to investigate and test things because we can just look out the window eh? Why are you here responding to any arguments then?

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ausGeoff

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #134 on: January 22, 2014, 06:43:13 AM »

Famous FE last words. No need to investigate and test things because we can just look out the window eh? Why are you here responding to any arguments then?


Poor old EarthIsASpaceship obviously failed to notice—or has chosen to ignore—that I said "the diagram illustrates the phenomenon as it occurs on a sphere".

Flat earthers are so desperate to defend their claims that they often miss the salient points of a round-earth argument.  As in this case.  FE's also have a common tendency to avoid considering hypotheticals;  everything that they believe in is supported by nothing more than their own—often misguided—personal opinions, and more often than not misconceptions of what they're actually seeing with their own eyes (as in "seeing" that the earth immediately surrounding them is "flat").

And I also note that despite me asking a few days ago for the FEs to cite a couple of accredited, contemporary scientists who subscribe to the flat earth theory, no names are yet forthcoming.  Why is this?

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stargazer711

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #135 on: March 11, 2020, 10:26:29 PM »
Since the earth has an equatorial bulge there is no perfect way to determine the drop but we can come up with some sort of average.

Suppose that the earth is a sphere of radius 3963 miles. If you are at a point P on the earth's surface and move tangent to the surface a distance of 1 mile to point Q then you can form a right triangle. Using Pythagorean theorem

a^2 = 3963^2 + 1^2 = 15705370 and thus a = 3963.000126 miles.

3963.00126 - 3963 (earth's radius) = 0.000126 miles above surface at point Q

Convert to inches:

12*5280*0.00126 = 7.98 inches.

Hence the earth's surface curves at approximately 8 inches per mile.

So for one, a 12 ft drop is erroneous. For 4 miles we're looking at under 3 ft and this is if you are looking from ground level. At 2 ft above the water it's even less.

It's 32 inches - 24 inches = 8 inch drop if 2 ft above water.

And that's if you were actually 2 ft above the water which it doesn't appear that way from your pic.
12 foot drop is not erroneous, 8" drop the first mile is correct. The drop is progressively more in each following mile.
Refer to this chart, it is correct.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm

No, that chart and equation are NOT correct, it is an equation for a parabola, not a circle!

You might want to check who created it, turns out it was that moron Samuel Robotham, the same one who did the totally debunked "Bedford level experiment". Might interest you to know that he dropped out of school at age 9. In short you are depending for your information on a grade school dropout. He also wrote an insane book on 100 reasons why the earth is not a sphere. In short, you listen to absolute morons!

You might want to consider how absolutely insane this flat earth fairy tale is. You know that the FACT that the earth is spherical was recognized by the Greeks around 2,500 years ago. That means that for this fact to be concealed would require that virtually every physical scientist, astronomer, and geographer for the last 2,500 years has been part of this massive conspiracy. That does not sound even remotely sane, which means that anyone actually believing this crap is delusional and probably in need of psychiatric care.
Warren, retired aerospace engineer and amateur astronomer
Note that the earth is NOT flat! :)

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rabinoz

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #136 on: March 12, 2020, 01:22:04 AM »
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
And that's if you were actually 2 ft above the water which it doesn't appear that way from your pic.
12 foot drop is not erroneous, 8" drop the first mile is correct. The drop is progressively more in each following mile.
Refer to this chart, it is correct.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm
No, that chart and equation are NOT correct, it is an equation for a parabola, not a circle!

You might want to check who created it, turns out it was that moron Samuel Robotham, the same one who did the totally debunked "Bedford level experiment". Might interest you to know that he dropped out of school at age 9. In short you are depending for your information on a grade school dropout. He also wrote an insane book on 100 reasons why the earth is not a sphere.
Without entering into the debate between hoppy and rottingroom I'm afraid that you are incorrect in a few factual points:
  • You say that the "chart and equation are NOT correct, it is an equation for a parabola, not a circle!"
    Now that is technically correct.
    The "chart and equation", are however, an excellent approximation to the drop of the surface of the
    below the local horizon.
    Have a look at Walter Bislin's Eight Inches per Miles squared Formula Derivation which shows that the formula is within 0.1% up to  almost 500 miles!
    Quote from: Walter Bislin
    This formula is an approximation: until 550 km or 342 mi the error stays within ∓0.032%. Until 800 km or 497 mi the error is less than 0.1%.
    So, it is only an approximation to the geometric drop but it is quite accurate enough over reasonable distances.
     
  • Nobody should call Samuel Robotham a "moron"!
    I would claim that he was a very "smart cookie" at what he did. For one thing, I suspect that he knew about "atmospheric refraction" and was smart enough to perform his "Bedford Level Experiment" very close to the water to give the result he wanted.
    And he paved the way for the modern flat-Earth movement which, like it or not, has had a significant impact.

  • You say "You might want to check who created it" but it would seem that Hoppy already knew that.
    If you bothered to check the reference Hoppy referred to you might have noted that it was written by Samuel Birley Rowbotham!
    Have a look at: Zetetic Astronomy, by 'Parallax' (pseud. Samuel Birley Rowbotham), CHAPTER II..

  • Then you claim "He also wrote an insane book on 100 reasons why the earth is not a sphere".
    Would you please show evidence for that because the closest that I know of is this book:
    One Hundred Proofs that the Earth is Not a Globe by William Carpenter.
If you want to debate with flat-Earthers it might be better to get your facts right or you might be the one thought a moron.

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #137 on: March 12, 2020, 02:26:38 AM »
No, that chart and equation are NOT correct, it is an equation for a parabola, not a circle!
No, the chart and equation are correct. They are approximations.
If you notice a parabola is approximately the same as a circle for small displacements.

If you need an example, look here:
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/s7as1l6oaf

For a more math based approach, consider this image:

There are a few different options for distance and height.
Lets take the simplest one as distance along the surface (d1) and height perpendicular to the surface (h1).

Well, for a given distance we get the angle as a=d1/R.
Cos(a)=R/(R+h1).
so sec(d1/R)=(R+h1)/R
R+h1=R*sec(d1/R)
h1=R*(sec(d1/R)-1)

You could computer this exactly, or alternatively just use an approximation.
sec(x)~=1+x^2/2.
Using that instead:
h1=R*(d1^2/(2*R^2)+1-1)
h1=1^2/(2*R)

Notice that this is a parabola.

If instead you want to use h3, that has:
cos(a)=(R-h3)/R
R-h3=R*cos(a)
h3=R*(1-cos(a))
Then using the small angle approximation for cos of cos(x)=1-x^2/2 we end up with:
h3=R*(1-(1-d1^2/R^2)/2)
h3=d1^2/(2*R)
Just like the first.
And then if you want to use d2 or d3, the small angle approximation is that x~=sin(x)~=tan(x), so they are effectively the same, and with d3 and d2 effectively the same, h3 and h2 are as well.

Based upon the diagram, Row Boat appears to be using d2 and h1.
This gives us yet another way to calculate it.
R^2+d2^2=(R+h1)^2=R^2+2*R*h1+h1^2.
Noting that h1 is tiny, this simplifies to:
d2^2=2*R*h1
h1=d^2/(2*R).

So no, that parabola is just fine.


As for why it is 8 inches per mile squared, we want to output a height in inches, using a distance in miles.
If we use a distance in miles and radius of Earth in miles, we will get a height in miles which needs to be converted to inches by 63360.
So the number we need is 63360/(2*R). The radius of Earth is 3,958.8 miles, which gives us 8.002424977 inches per mile squared. So the 8 actually underestimates it until you get to quite some distance.

As a comparison of it all:
d2a (milli radians)a (degrees)d1d3H Row Pgh Rowh parh1h2h3
10.250.011.001.0088.008.008.008.008.00
20.510.032.002.003232.0032.0132.0132.0132.01
30.760.043.003.0066.006.006.006.006.00
41.010.064.004.001010.6710.6710.6710.6710.67
51.260.075.005.001616.6716.6716.6716.6716.67
61.520.096.006.002424.0024.0124.0124.0124.01
71.770.107.007.003232.6732.6832.6832.6832.68
82.020.128.008.004242.6742.6842.6842.6842.68
92.270.139.009.005454.0054.0254.0254.0254.02
102.530.1410.0010.006666.6766.6966.6966.6966.69
205.050.2920.0020.00266266.67266.75266.75266.75266.74
307.580.4330.0030.00600600.00600.18600.17600.19600.16
4010.100.5840.0040.0010661066.671066.991066.961067.021066.91
5012.630.7250.0050.0016661666.671667.171667.111667.241666.97
6015.150.8760.0059.9924002400.002400.732400.592400.872400.31
7017.681.0169.9969.9932663266.673267.663267.403267.913266.89
8020.211.1679.9979.9842664266.674267.964267.524268.404266.65
9022.731.3089.9889.9854005400.005401.645400.945402.335399.54
10025.251.4599.9899.9766666666.676668.696667.626669.756665.50
12030.301.74119.96119.9496009600.009602.919600.719605.129596.30


Notice how it holds quite well? Even at the 120 miles, the way he is expressing it still has it underestimating.

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #138 on: March 13, 2020, 03:51:21 AM »
Quote
just took this image today, how can this house be visible if the earth is a sphere?
This image was taken from 4.4 miles as I found on google earth. There is no other proof for you roundies, you just have to take my word for now about this. I will work on better documentation later. But what I have stated here is true.

Owing to there being an atmosphere surrounding Earth it is quite possible to see a lot further than 4.4 miles, 10 miles or even 50 miles under the right conditions owing to the refractive properties of air.

It would be a different story if there was no atmosphere since then the rate of curvature would be the only one of two things (your elevation and the rate of curvature) that determined how far you can see.  As it is there are three.  Your photo is showing you something that seemingly supports what you choose to believe. Therefore you overlook or simply ignore the other possible explanations for what might make it possible but which do not support your belief.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 04:05:04 AM by Solarwind »

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #139 on: March 13, 2020, 03:39:30 PM »
Wow.  This is a random 6 year old thread.  But at least the OP is still actually here.

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #140 on: March 13, 2020, 04:01:10 PM »
I must admit I don't often take any notice of the posting dates.  Just titles. I was going to post a reply to a discussion in the FE repository that goes back to 2009!

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rabinoz

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #141 on: March 13, 2020, 07:48:49 PM »
Wow.  This is a random 6 year old thread.  But at least the OP is still actually here.
Yes, hoppy's still here but seems suffer dementia now because few of his posts are more than two words.

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rabinoz

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #142 on: March 13, 2020, 08:07:38 PM »
Wow.  This is a random 6 year old thread.  But at least the OP is still actually here.
And look at this photo showing oil "Platform Habitat" 9.41 miles away, yet visible from (supposedly) one foot above sea-level:

Ocean Horizon Rising (atmosphere) Blocking Visibility at 2.41
Then from the same location and (supposedly) the same height above sea-level but on a different day and much of  oil "Platform Habitat" hidden by "something":

Ocean Horizon Rising (atmosphere) Blocking Visibility at 1.00

See what severe refraction, looming and towering can do.

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Stash

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #143 on: March 13, 2020, 08:33:11 PM »
That is some crazy distortion. Compare the close up:

No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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rabinoz

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #144 on: March 13, 2020, 09:11:30 PM »
That is some crazy distortion. Compare the close up:

It's "some crazy distortion" alright yet a number the "top YouTube FEers" are claiming that as the ultimate "Globe Killer".
Then the one who presented the video explained away that second photo as due to the ocean Horizon rising due to the atmosphere blocking visibility.

Here is the video that those screenshots came from and another be the same maker.

Ocean Horizon Rising (atmosphere) Blocking Visibility..Not Curvature by bmlsb69

Just compare 1:00 and 2:45 in that video.

This video by the same person might also be relevant:

Atmospheric MAGNIFICATION: Why objects are behind horizon, even after zoomed in with P900 by bmlsb69

Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #145 on: March 14, 2020, 05:55:01 AM »
Wouldn't this same sort of distortion account for the strange shapes you see in the Sun when it is sitting in the horizon? Sometimes the top of the Sun even becomes detached as it disappears over the horizon and leads to the 'green flash' effect.

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rabinoz

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #146 on: March 14, 2020, 04:07:56 PM »
Wouldn't this same sort of distortion account for the strange shapes you see in the Sun when it is sitting in the horizon? Sometimes the top of the Sun even becomes detached as it disappears over the horizon and leads to the 'green flash' effect.
Yes, weird effects like that over water are not that rare especially what the water temperature is much colder than the air above and there are other effects when the surface is warner than the air.
Try this one from Argentina:
Quote
Astronomy Picture of the Day
Discover the cosmos! Each day a different image or photograph of our fascinating universe is featured, along with a brief explanation written by a professional astronomer. 2011 October 10

A Strange Sunrise Over Argentina Image Credit & Copyright: Luis Argerich
Explanation: Why would a rising Sun look so strange?
Weird!

Here is the map of a site with some discussions, examples and explanations of these and other atmosphere effects:
The Weather Doctor: Site Map
And the  section Optical Phenomena: Sunsets, Halos, Mirages, etc. has links to many of these effects with these being the most relevant:
Mirages: A Primer
The Inferior Mirage: Not Just For Deserts Anymore
The Superior Mirage: Seeing Beyond

"Seeing too far" does not necessarily prove the Earth to be flat and "things hidden" is not of itself proof of curvature.
One needs to check how changing atmospheric conditions (even just at different times if the day) affects the distance.
Seeing things become hidden as either they move away (over the curve) or becoming hidden as the observer goes lower is far more significant.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 11:57:04 PM by rabinoz »

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Macarios

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #147 on: March 16, 2020, 10:05:08 PM »
I just took this image today, how can this house be visible if the earth is a sphere?
This image was taken from 4.4 miles as I found on google earth. There is no other proof for you roundies, you just have to take my word for now about this. I will work on better documentation later. But what I have stated here is true.


...

Your "expected values" are not the expected values:

Quote
Earth's Curve Horizon, Bulge, Drop, and Hidden Calculator

Distance = 4.4 miles (23232 feet), View Height = 2 feet (24 inches) Actual Radius = 3959 miles (20903520 feet)

With the refraction approximation* giving an effective radius of 4618.83 miles
Refracted Horizon = 1.87 miles (9876.73 feet)
Refracted Drop= 11.07 feet (132.79 inches)
Refracted Hidden= 3.66 feet (43.88 inches)
Refracted Horizon Dip = 0.023 Degrees, (0.0004 Radians)
Note: Not accurate for observations over water very close to the horizon (unless the temperature and vertical temperature gradient are accurate)

Geometric results (no refraction)
Geometric Horizon = 1.73 miles (9144.07 feet)
Geometric Drop = 12.91 feet (154.92 inches)
Geometric Hidden= 4.75 feet (56.97 inches)
Geometric Horizon Dip = 0.025 Degrees, (0.0004 Radians)

Pure Angular Size results (Explanation Here)
Angle between eye level and the horizon = 0.02506 Degrees, (0.000437 Radians)
Angle between eye level and the bottom of the target= 0.03677 Degrees, (0.000642 Radians)
Angular size of hidden amount = 0.01171 Degrees, (0.000204 Radians)

And in that picture the beach and the bottom of the house are clearly missing.

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I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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rabinoz

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Re: Why can you RE'ers see this house.
« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2020, 11:15:08 PM »
I just took this image today, how can this house be visible if the earth is a sphere?
This image was taken from 4.4 miles as I found on google earth. There is no other proof for you roundies, you just have to take my word for now about this. I will work on better documentation later. But what I have stated here is true.


...

Your "expected values" are not the expected values:

Quote
Earth's Curve Horizon, Bulge, Drop, and Hidden Calculator

Distance = 4.4 miles (23232 feet), View Height = 2 feet (24 inches) Actual Radius = 3959 miles (20903520 feet)

With the refraction approximation* giving an effective radius of 4618.83 miles
Refracted Horizon = 1.87 miles (9876.73 feet)
Refracted Drop= 11.07 feet (132.79 inches)
Refracted Hidden= 3.66 feet (43.88 inches)
Refracted Horizon Dip = 0.023 Degrees, (0.0004 Radians)
Note: Not accurate for observations over water very close to the horizon (unless the temperature and vertical temperature gradient are accurate)

Geometric results (no refraction)
Geometric Horizon = 1.73 miles (9144.07 feet)
Geometric Drop = 12.91 feet (154.92 inches)
Geometric Hidden= 4.75 feet (56.97 inches)
Geometric Horizon Dip = 0.025 Degrees, (0.0004 Radians)

Pure Angular Size results (Explanation Here)
Angle between eye level and the horizon = 0.02506 Degrees, (0.000437 Radians)
Angle between eye level and the bottom of the target= 0.03677 Degrees, (0.000642 Radians)
Angular size of hidden amount = 0.01171 Degrees, (0.000204 Radians)

And in that picture the beach and the bottom of the house are clearly missing.

It's a very fuzzy photo for 4.4 miles and I've wondered but haven't been sure enough to say it but I suspect a "haze" line along the apparent beach and stretching (towering) above that.
There's not enough information to know for sure - not like the YouTube "Black Swan".