Another one bites the dust

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Lorddave

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EnigmaZV

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 02:16:29 PM »
I blame the Chinese.
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

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Pyrolizard

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 02:27:56 PM »
Well in all fairness, it's been considered extinct in the wild for around a decade at this point, and it actually became official in 2011 according to the IUCN.  If you want an animal declared officially extinct this year, check out the Formosan Clouded Leopard, which also got nearly no press.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 05:57:57 PM »
Why should this be a big deal?  Isn't it nature's way for animals to go extinct?  Isn't that more or less what survival of the fittest is all about?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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markjo

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2013, 06:29:34 PM »
No.  Hunting animals for food is natural.  Hunting animals for trophies is not.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 06:30:31 PM »
No.  Hunting animals for food is natural.  Hunting animals for trophies is not.

So humans are able to do things that are supernatural?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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markjo

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 06:31:25 PM »
No.  Hunting animals for food is natural.  Hunting animals for trophies is not.

So humans are able to do things that are supernatural?
Not supernatural, just unnatural.  Big difference.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Alchemist21

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2013, 06:52:41 PM »
Survival of the fittest applies when there is competition for resources.  Humans were not threatened by the rhinos' existance, they just wanted to hunt for sport.  That's not necessarily a bad thing ( I'd prefer they eat the meat as welland not waste the body) but people lacked the self control to limit their hunting.  If they had controlled themselves they could still be hunting those rhinos for years and the rhinos would still be around.
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2013, 02:27:47 PM »
As I opened this thread 'The Greatest Show on Earth' - Symphony of Science just came on shuffle.

Only the fittest survive... and that is the key...

Spooky.

RIP Black Rhino.

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2013, 06:21:54 PM »
No.  Hunting animals for food is natural.  Hunting animals for trophies is not.

So humans are able to do things that are supernatural?
Not supernatural, just unnatural.  Big difference.

What is the difference? Where is the border between natural and unnatural behavior for humans?

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Rama Set

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2013, 07:01:04 PM »
There is not one, people just like to pretend that we are somehow special.   Nope!  Almost mindless killing machines when you come right down to it.
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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2013, 09:38:26 PM »
Why should this be a big deal?  Isn't it nature's way for animals to go extinct?  Isn't that more or less what survival of the fittest is all about?

It's not nature's way for an entire species to be very suddenly and abruptly wiped out by human activity.  And before anyone starts any pedantic quibbling or equivocation, it's quite common for people to define terms like "nature" or "natural" as exclusive of humans, human activities, human tendencies, etc.  That's the way I'm using them, and it's clearly the way that markjo is using them.

As for "survival of the fittest," that's a misleading pseudo-scientific phrase that people really need to stop using.

There is not one, people just like to pretend that we are somehow special.   Nope!  Almost mindless killing machines when you come right down to it.

No.  That is the exact opposite of how it works.  What makes us special is our intelligence, and that's also what makes us so dangerous to the planet.  If we were really mindless, we wouldn't be able to cause these problems in the first place.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2013, 11:02:20 PM »
Why should this be a big deal?  Isn't it nature's way for animals to go extinct?  Isn't that more or less what survival of the fittest is all about?

It's not nature's way for an entire species to be very suddenly and abruptly wiped out by human activity.  And before anyone starts any pedantic quibbling or equivocation, it's quite common for people to define terms like "nature" or "natural" as exclusive of humans, human activities, human tendencies, etc.  That's the way I'm using them, and it's clearly the way that markjo is using them.

As for "survival of the fittest," that's a misleading pseudo-scientific phrase that people really need to stop using.

There is not one, people just like to pretend that we are somehow special.   Nope!  Almost mindless killing machines when you come right down to it.

No.  That is the exact opposite of how it works.  What makes us special is our intelligence, and that's also what makes us so dangerous to the planet.  If we were really mindless, we wouldn't be able to cause these problems in the first place.

So our intelligence makes what we do take place outside of nature?  I understand perfectly how you and Markjo were using the term "natural", you are meaning it as being the opposite of "artificial", but it is precisely the wrong way to be using the term as pertains to the subject at hand, and it is not the sense I had in mind when I used the phrase "nature's way", which is how this thread of conversation started.  So I'm sorry, but yes, you and Markjo are being pedantic, to the point of absurdity.

Either you ascribe abilities or tendencies to human beings that were given to them by something other than nature (in which case you are arguing in favor of the existence of a higher power), or you feel that everything we do as human beings is a result of the way we naturally evolved, thus making our love of hunting a product of nature.  I really don't see how there can be a gray area here, but if you think you can logically present one, by all means do so.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2013, 06:12:31 AM »
If you weren't using the term to mean the opposite of artificial, then your original question was completely pointless.  Anything and everything that we do is "nature's way," so it makes no sense to justify something by claiming that it's nature's way.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2013, 07:14:32 AM »
If you weren't using the term to mean the opposite of artificial, then your original question was completely pointless.

No, if I had been using the term to mean the opposite of artificial, then my original question would have been completely pointless.

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Anything and everything that we do is "nature's way,"...

Obviously.

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...so it makes no sense to justify something by claiming that it's nature's way.

Why not?  My point was that animals have been going extinct for billions of years.  They have been going extinct since long before humans were on the Earth.  There is nothing inherently special or meaningful about the fact that we are causing it to happen now, because we , and everything we do, are just a part of nature.

So again, this should matter to me why?  Are black rhinos an essential part of the food chain whose extinction will cause chaos the likes that we have never seen?  Do we suddenly not have enough species of animal left to make our zoos fun and interesting places?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Rama Set

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2013, 09:35:42 AM »
Roundy's right.  Something absurd like 99.99% of all species of life ever to inhabit the Earth are now extinct. We will be one day as well.  It is a hard truth, but one that we must face.

To all those that think we are a threat to the planet, consider the tiny portion of the planet that we actually affect vs its volume.  Consider the span of time the Earth has existed and will continue to exist.  We are quite incapable of harming the planet. We could detonate every nuclear bomb in our possession and worst case scenario we contaminate the Earth for a few million years.  The Earth has been around for 3.5B years! That would be the same as a human, who is thirty years old getting sick for ten days or so.  Hardly an apocalypse on that scale.

We continually overstate and overestimate our influence on the world.  Sure it is greater than some other species of animals, but it is still insignificant.

Finally, I want everyone to know my Black Rhino steak was delicious with some Grey Poupon, but it was so big I could not finish it, so I threw it out.
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markjo

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2013, 12:44:04 PM »
Roundy's right.  Something absurd like 99.99% of all species of life ever to inhabit the Earth are now extinct. We will be one day as well.  It is a hard truth, but one that we must face.

To all those that think we are a threat to the planet, consider the tiny portion of the planet that we actually affect vs its volume.
We may not be a threat to the planet itself, but we are most certainly a threat to the planet's ability to support life, including our own.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Thork

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2013, 04:08:49 PM »
Question:

They can grow a human ear on the back of a mouse. Why can't they grow a rhino horn on a cow? All the Chinese medicine they could ever need + you can then eat the cows at the end and no need to poach rhinos.


If I was someone important all the world's problems would be solved. But no. I'm a complete nobody and world governments aren't interested in my awesome ideas.  >o<
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 04:17:19 PM by Thork »

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Alchemist21

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2013, 05:36:35 PM »
I am of the belief that unicorns were hunted to extinction in medeival Europe for one of the reasons rhinos are poached- the horn.
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Lorddave

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2013, 06:10:52 PM »
Question:

They can grow a human ear on the back of a mouse. Why can't they grow a rhino horn on a cow? All the Chinese medicine they could ever need + you can then eat the cows at the end and no need to poach rhinos.


If I was someone important all the world's problems would be solved. But no. I'm a complete nobody and world governments aren't interested in my awesome ideas.  >o<
Different cellular structure.  More specifically: bone.  You can't graft bone and make it work.  At least not right now.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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markjo

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2013, 08:57:15 PM »
Question:

They can grow a human ear on the back of a mouse. Why can't they grow a rhino horn on a cow?
Cows already grow horns.  It would probably be easier to tweak the cow's DNA to grow a rhino horn, similar to how they tweaked goat DNA to produce spider silk.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Thork

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2013, 01:17:14 AM »
Question:

They can grow a human ear on the back of a mouse. Why can't they grow a rhino horn on a cow? All the Chinese medicine they could ever need + you can then eat the cows at the end and no need to poach rhinos.


If I was someone important all the world's problems would be solved. But no. I'm a complete nobody and world governments aren't interested in my awesome ideas.  >o<
Different cellular structure.  More specifically: bone.  You can't graft bone and make it work.  At least not right now.
Why did you make that up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_grafting

Question:

They can grow a human ear on the back of a mouse. Why can't they grow a rhino horn on a cow?
Cows already grow horns.  It would probably be easier to tweak the cow's DNA to grow a rhino horn, similar to how they tweaked goat DNA to produce spider silk.
No. I want cows to have rhino horns.  >:(

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Lorddave

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2013, 06:17:43 AM »
Question:

They can grow a human ear on the back of a mouse. Why can't they grow a rhino horn on a cow? All the Chinese medicine they could ever need + you can then eat the cows at the end and no need to poach rhinos.


If I was someone important all the world's problems would be solved. But no. I'm a complete nobody and world governments aren't interested in my awesome ideas.  >o<
Different cellular structure.  More specifically: bone.  You can't graft bone and make it work.  At least not right now.
Why did you make that up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_grafting
I did not realize that was called bone grafting.  When I said grafting, I was thinking of plant grafting:inosculation.

But as the article says, the grafted bone is usually absorbed or overtaken by the original bone. 
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Thork

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2013, 09:40:13 AM »
Question:

They can grow a human ear on the back of a mouse. Why can't they grow a rhino horn on a cow? All the Chinese medicine they could ever need + you can then eat the cows at the end and no need to poach rhinos.


If I was someone important all the world's problems would be solved. But no. I'm a complete nobody and world governments aren't interested in my awesome ideas.  >o<
Different cellular structure.  More specifically: bone.  You can't graft bone and make it work.  At least not right now.
Why did you make that up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_grafting
I did not realize that was called bone grafting.  When I said grafting, I was thinking of plant grafting:inosculation.

But as the article says, the grafted bone is usually absorbed or overtaken by the original bone.
So there is no problem with my solution. Thank you. Bring on the rhino-cows!  >o<

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2013, 09:50:02 AM »
It does seem like an idea whose time has come.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Lorddave

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2013, 02:13:46 PM »
Question:

They can grow a human ear on the back of a mouse. Why can't they grow a rhino horn on a cow? All the Chinese medicine they could ever need + you can then eat the cows at the end and no need to poach rhinos.


If I was someone important all the world's problems would be solved. But no. I'm a complete nobody and world governments aren't interested in my awesome ideas.  >o<
Different cellular structure.  More specifically: bone.  You can't graft bone and make it work.  At least not right now.
Why did you make that up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_grafting
I did not realize that was called bone grafting.  When I said grafting, I was thinking of plant grafting:inosculation.

But as the article says, the grafted bone is usually absorbed or overtaken by the original bone.
So there is no problem with my solution. Thank you. Bring on the rhino-cows!  >o<
Apparently there is.

Rhino horn isn't bone.
It consists entirely of Keratin.

Also, apparently Rhino horns do grow back at a rate of 12cm/year, provided that the plate is intact.

http://www.krugerpark.co.za/kruger-park-news-rhino-horn-dehorning-did-you-know-25420.html


So basically, your idea won't work as it grows WAY too slowly to be economical. 
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Thork

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2013, 02:33:51 PM »
Question:

They can grow a human ear on the back of a mouse. Why can't they grow a rhino horn on a cow? All the Chinese medicine they could ever need + you can then eat the cows at the end and no need to poach rhinos.


If I was someone important all the world's problems would be solved. But no. I'm a complete nobody and world governments aren't interested in my awesome ideas.  >o<
Different cellular structure.  More specifically: bone.  You can't graft bone and make it work.  At least not right now.
Why did you make that up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_grafting
I did not realize that was called bone grafting.  When I said grafting, I was thinking of plant grafting:inosculation.

But as the article says, the grafted bone is usually absorbed or overtaken by the original bone.
So there is no problem with my solution. Thank you. Bring on the rhino-cows!  >o<
Apparently there is.

Rhino horn isn't bone.
It consists entirely of Keratin.

Also, apparently Rhino horns do grow back at a rate of 12cm/year, provided that the plate is intact.

http://www.krugerpark.co.za/kruger-park-news-rhino-horn-dehorning-did-you-know-25420.html


So basically, your idea won't work as it grows WAY too slowly to be economical.
::)

Keratin is the stuff your hair is made out of. It grows on the outside of the bone. That's how horns work.


As for economically, we raise cows anyway. As an EXTRA we can grow horns on them.

The average rhino horn retails for $300,000. How is this not economically viable Dave?

Why are you trying to trash my idea with made up stupid objections?

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Pyrolizard

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2013, 02:48:06 PM »
The average rhino horn retails for $300,000. How is this not economically viable Dave?

Well, two things.  It may end up that the genetically modified cow/rhino horns sell for less, because they're not actually from a rhinoceros.  Then there's the issue of actually implementing this genetic modification, finding buyers interested in this not-rhino horn, and clearing it past the international ban on the sale of rhino horns.
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Lorddave

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Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2013, 03:53:05 PM »
::)

Keratin is the stuff your hair is made out of. It grows on the outside of the bone. That's how horns work.

As for economically, we raise cows anyway. As an EXTRA we can grow horns on them.

The average rhino horn retails for $300,000. How is this not economically viable Dave?

Why are you trying to trash my idea with made up stupid objections?
Except Rhino horns are PURE Keratin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceros#Horns
Quote
Rhinoceros horns, unlike those of other horned mammals (which have a bony core), only consist of keratin.

Anyway, I did the math using poor figures and you're right.  If it worked, the initial investment would likely be $3.2 million but yield about $7 Million/year for 14 years.

Assuming, of course, you're selling ground horn and not trying to get a full horn.

At 12cm/year, a full horn of a black rhino is 50cm long.  So if they wanted a full horn, you'd need to wait 4 years.



However, if Rhino horn is pure Keratin, then it would make MORE sense to just take human nail clippings, grind them up, and sell them as ground Rhino Horn.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 03:58:01 PM by Lorddave »
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2013, 12:52:21 AM »
I hate to say this but extinctions will continue to happen (human influenced or not). It's part of evolution I'm afraid, in some cases I think we're fighting a losing battle.