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So, you know you can....

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th3rm0m3t3r0

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So, you know you can....
« on: November 11, 2013, 10:50:00 AM »
Go on an easy expedition to Antarctica, right?

http://www.expeditions.com/destinations/polar-regions/antarctica/

I would get some information from that page for you and put it here, but you aren't children.
I require an explanation.
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Quote from: sceptimatic on October 16, 2013, 08:29:11 AM
I don't profess to be correct.
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Alchemist21

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2013, 11:18:17 AM »
From what I can gather, this is a guided tour that doesn't go very far inland.  FE researchers would need to travel much further inland to get the info they require. 
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iwanttobelieve

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2013, 03:03:36 PM »
How would they get (in) if a 150 ft uniform wall of ice blocks their way?
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2929292

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2013, 03:35:07 PM »
Research bases in Antartica all seem to be along the coast.
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Alchemist21

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2013, 04:08:58 PM »
Quote from: iwanttobelieve on November 11, 2013, 03:03:36 PM
How would they get (in) if a 150 ft uniform wall of ice blocks their way?

With aircraft, nit seacraft.  What FE researchers want to know is what it's like beyond the antarctic coast.  Is there a sudden temperature drop?  Is it a continent or not?   I doubt they have much interest in researching penguins.
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Scintific Method

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2013, 07:46:45 PM »
Quote from: 2929292 on November 11, 2013, 03:35:07 PM
Research bases in Antartica all seem to be along the coast.

With the notable exception of the Amundsen-Scott station, located at the south geographic pole. There are others inland as well, as far as I am aware, this is just the most notable.
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Quote from: jtelroy
...the FE'ers still found a way to deny it. Not with counter arguments. Not with proof of any kind. By simply denying it.

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."
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11cookeaw1

Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 02:17:15 AM »
Most of the cruises to the South Pole take place when it's summer in the Southern Hemisphere, exactly the time where the midnight sun is visible.
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neutral22

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2013, 05:53:07 AM »
if there is midnight sun, shouldn't the temperature get really hot in the north and south pole. i mean, if the sun is out 24 hours a day.. sorry i wasn't paying attention in science class :D
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dephelis

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2013, 07:24:46 AM »
Quote from: neutral22 on November 12, 2013, 05:53:07 AM
if there is midnight sun, shouldn't the temperature get really hot in the north and south pole. i mean, if the sun is out 24 hours a day.. sorry i wasn't paying attention in science class :D

Even in the polar summers, the sun does not get very high in the sky. This means the light from the sun hits the surface of the earth at a lower angle than in temperate/tropical regions, resulting in solar energy being spread out over a wider area.

Add this to exceedingly dry air which does not retain heat radiated back by the ground, the thin atmosphere over the high elevation ice sheet, and high reflectivity of snow and ice reflecting much of the solar energy. Hardly surprising that Antarctica is cold even during the summer.

There are a few other reasons, a number of which also explain why the Antarctic is colder than the Arctic, but the ones above will do. :)
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sceptimatic

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2013, 11:22:42 AM »
The midnight sun can be seen from Tromso in Norway but we can't see it in England. Why would that be?
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Rama Set

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2013, 11:43:08 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 12, 2013, 11:22:42 AM
The midnight sun can be seen from Tromso in Norway but we can't see it in England. Why would that be?

Because it is substantially further north than England.

https://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&q=tromso+norway&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x45c4c4526c3b71fd:0x23dca858e6ebed3,Troms%C3%B8,+Norway&gl=ca&ei=fISCUu79HeT42QX2jICwBQ&ved=0CKsBELYD

It is about 1000kms north of the northernmost point in England.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 11:45:32 AM by Rama Set »
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Quote from: charles bloomington on April 25, 2015, 04:13:06 PM
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.
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sceptimatic

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2013, 11:48:17 AM »
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 11:43:08 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 12, 2013, 11:22:42 AM
The midnight sun can be seen from Tromso in Norway but we can't see it in England. Why would that be?

Because it is substantially further north than England.

https://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&q=tromso+norway&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x45c4c4526c3b71fd:0x23dca858e6ebed3,Troms%C3%B8,+Norway&gl=ca&ei=fISCUu79HeT42QX2jICwBQ&ved=0CKsBELYD

It is about 1000kms north of the northernmost point in England.
93 million mile, 1000,000 plus km sun and it's substantially north of the northernmost point of England. It doesn't really make any sense when you consider the map, does it.
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Rama Set

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2013, 11:55:51 AM »
To me it does, to you it doesn't. You threw out the distance and diameter of the sun like that implies the sun must be visible at all times when it does not since it calculates out to an apparent angle of 0.5 degrees. What plays a bigger role is the axial tilt of the sun.
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Quote from: charles bloomington on April 25, 2015, 04:13:06 PM
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.
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sceptimatic

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2013, 12:00:05 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 11:55:51 AM
To me it does, to you it doesn't. You threw out the distance and diameter of the sun like that implies the sun must be visible at all times when it does not since it calculates out to an apparent angle of 0.5 degrees. What plays a bigger role is the axial tilt of the sun.
Axial TILT of the what?
Did I read that properly?
Did you just say, the AXIAL TILT of the SUN?
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29silhouette

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2013, 12:02:32 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 12, 2013, 11:48:17 AM
93 million mile, 1000,000 plus km sun and it's substantially north of the northernmost point of England. It doesn't really make any sense when you consider the map, does it.
It does make sense if you understand it.  Since you need visual aids, a small desktop globe and a light would suffice. 
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Rama Set

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2013, 12:04:24 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 12, 2013, 12:00:05 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 11:55:51 AM
To me it does, to you it doesn't. You threw out the distance and diameter of the sun like that implies the sun must be visible at all times when it does not since it calculates out to an apparent angle of 0.5 degrees. What plays a bigger role is the axial tilt of the sun.
Axial TILT of the what?
Did I read that properly?
Did you just say, the AXIAL TILT of the SUN?

No drama queen. The Earth, the axial tilt of the Earth.
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Quote from: charles bloomington on April 25, 2015, 04:13:06 PM
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.
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sceptimatic

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2013, 12:11:02 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 12, 2013, 12:00:05 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 11:55:51 AM
To me it does, to you it doesn't. You threw out the distance and diameter of the sun like that implies the sun must be visible at all times when it does not since it calculates out to an apparent angle of 0.5 degrees. What plays a bigger role is the axial tilt of the sun.
Axial TILT of the what?
Did I read that properly?
Did you just say, the AXIAL TILT of the SUN?

No drama queen. The Earth, the axial tilt of the Earth.
Oh, ok, the axial tilt of the SUN was just a slip up. Fair enough.
Ok, so we have the Axial tilt of the earth and this should be enough for a person far north in England to miss out on the midnight sun.
It still makes no sense.
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Rama Set

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2013, 12:13:43 PM »
It makes perfect sense and there are even animations that demonstrate it. What you mean is, you do not understand it.

Here is an example:

http://www.mathsisfun.com/earth-orbit.html
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 12:20:45 PM by Rama Set »
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Quote from: charles bloomington on April 25, 2015, 04:13:06 PM
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.
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sceptimatic

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2013, 12:27:09 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 12:13:43 PM
It makes perfect sense and there are even animations that demonstrate it. What you mean is, you do not understand it.

Here is an example:

http://www.mathsisfun.com/earth-orbit.html
Like I said, it makes no sense.
Can you explain why the axis pole moves?
I mean, the earth is spinning, as we are told, but why should the axis pole shift as it rotates around the sun...what makes it do that? What force?

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Rama Set

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2013, 12:28:52 PM »
What do you mean "the axis pole moves"?  It has a slight wobble, like a top that is not spinning perfectly.  Is that what you mean? 

Just so we are clear the tilt of the Earth's Axis is not directly related to the revolution of the Earth around the Sun.
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Quote from: charles bloomington on April 25, 2015, 04:13:06 PM
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.
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sceptimatic

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2013, 12:33:23 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 12:28:52 PM
What do you mean "the axis pole moves"?  It has a slight wobble, like a top that is not spinning perfectly.  Is that what you mean? 

Just so we are clear the tilt of the Earth's Axis is not directly related to the revolution of the Earth around the Sun.
Look at the jutting white poles coming from the model earth. The axis poles, now look as they go around the so called sun.
They should, in all normality, if it was real, which it isn't...they should face one way, all the way around. They should not shift the position of the pole.
Basically. If the north pole was pointing outwards, it should go all the way round the sun, outwards, so what is making it change direction?
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dephelis

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2013, 12:39:38 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 12, 2013, 12:27:09 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 12:13:43 PM
It makes perfect sense and there are even animations that demonstrate it. What you mean is, you do not understand it.

Here is an example:

http://www.mathsisfun.com/earth-orbit.html
Like I said, it makes no sense.
Can you explain why the axis pole moves?
I mean, the earth is spinning, as we are told, but why should the axis pole shift as it rotates around the sun...what makes it do that? What force?

Other than precession, it does not. If you could view the solar system from above, the orientation of the polar Axis remains the same. It can appear to change if viewed from a different reference point, such as a from the surface of the sun.

It's a simple enough thing to demonstrate to yourself with a couple of household items.
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Rama Set

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2013, 12:41:51 PM »
You have been through this before, in another thread.  As was explained there, the pole is actually not moving.  What you are describing, the north pole constantly facing away from the sun, would require the axial tilt to rotate.  Lets drop this, so we are not repeating ourselves.  If you are really interested, we can go back to your other thread and pick it up there.
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Quote from: charles bloomington on April 25, 2015, 04:13:06 PM
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.
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Whiskey

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2013, 12:42:30 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 12:28:52 PM
What do you mean "the axis pole moves"?  It has a slight wobble, like a top that is not spinning perfectly.  Is that what you mean? 

Just so we are clear the tilt of the Earth's Axis is not directly related to the revolution of the Earth around the Sun.

He doesn't understand (or believe) that the Earth's axis remains oriented in the same direction, regardless of it's orbital position around the sun.

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11cookeaw1

Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2013, 08:34:11 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 12, 2013, 12:27:09 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 12:13:43 PM
It makes perfect sense and there are even animations that demonstrate it. What you mean is, you do not understand it.

Here is an example:

http://www.mathsisfun.com/earth-orbit.html
Like I said, it makes no sense.
Can you explain why the axis pole moves?
I mean, the earth is spinning, as we are told, but why should the axis pole shift as it rotates around the sun...what makes it do that? What force?
[/quote
Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.
If you'd actually try to learn a bit about what you casually dismiss it would make a lot more sense.
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sceptimatic

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2013, 07:51:40 AM »
Quote from: Whiskey on November 12, 2013, 12:42:30 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 12:28:52 PM
What do you mean "the axis pole moves"?  It has a slight wobble, like a top that is not spinning perfectly.  Is that what you mean? 

Just so we are clear the tilt of the Earth's Axis is not directly related to the revolution of the Earth around the Sun.

He doesn't understand (or believe) that the Earth's axis remains oriented in the same direction, regardless of it's orbital position around the sun.


Slow that picture down and you can see how it changes. This would not be possible, but it's made possible because they like to fit anything in to account for what people see.

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sceptimatic

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2013, 07:54:36 AM »
Quote from: 11cookeaw1 on November 12, 2013, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 12, 2013, 12:27:09 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 12:13:43 PM
It makes perfect sense and there are even animations that demonstrate it. What you mean is, you do not understand it.

Here is an example:

http://www.mathsisfun.com/earth-orbit.html
Like I said, it makes no sense.
Can you explain why the axis pole moves?
I mean, the earth is spinning, as we are told, but why should the axis pole shift as it rotates around the sun...what makes it do that? What force?
[/quote
Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.
If you'd actually try to learn a bit about what you casually dismiss it would make a lot more sense.
I understand it perfectly well. It's a simple con game that any rational thinking person should be able to see.
The axis pole should NOT change it's orientation by going AROUND a BALL of SUN as we are told it is.
It's circling and supposedly spinning and yet it also has to orientate its pole to move away and towards the sun.How can this possibly be?
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29silhouette

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2013, 08:53:32 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 13, 2013, 07:54:36 AM
Quote from: 11cookeaw1 on November 12, 2013, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 12, 2013, 12:27:09 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 12:13:43 PM
It makes perfect sense and there are even animations that demonstrate it. What you mean is, you do not understand it.

Here is an example:

http://www.mathsisfun.com/earth-orbit.html
Like I said, it makes no sense.
Can you explain why the axis pole moves?
I mean, the earth is spinning, as we are told, but why should the axis pole shift as it rotates around the sun...what makes it do that? What force?
Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.
If you'd actually try to learn a bit about what you casually dismiss it would make a lot more sense.
I understand it perfectly well. It's a simple con game that any rational thinking person should be able to see.
The axis pole should NOT change it's orientation by going AROUND a BALL of SUN as we are told it is.
It's circling and supposedly spinning and yet it also has to orientate its pole to move away and towards the sun.How can this possibly be?

Here 11 and scepti, let me fix your broken quote tree.

Correct scepti, it should not change it's orientation by going around the sun.  The axis is tilted and not rotating.

Incorrect, it doesn't have to orientate it's pole to move away and toward the sun.  It's simply a result of being tilted and not rotating.

If it actually did rotate completely once a year, one hemisphere would be permanent summer, the other permanent winter, Polaris would be just another star moving in a big circle at night, and you'd be complaining right now about what causes it to have that perfectly timed rotation, and that it's too perfectly timed, doesn't make sense, etc.
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Whiskey

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2013, 11:36:06 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 13, 2013, 07:51:40 AM
Quote from: Whiskey on November 12, 2013, 12:42:30 PM
Quote from: Rama Set on November 12, 2013, 12:28:52 PM
What do you mean "the axis pole moves"?  It has a slight wobble, like a top that is not spinning perfectly.  Is that what you mean? 

Just so we are clear the tilt of the Earth's Axis is not directly related to the revolution of the Earth around the Sun.

He doesn't understand (or believe) that the Earth's axis remains oriented in the same direction, regardless of it's orbital position around the sun.

Slow that picture down and you can see how it changes. This would not be possible, but it's made possible because they like to fit anything in to account for what people see.

I don't have to slow it down to see that the image of the blue ball representing the Earth does not change at all no matter where it is in it's orbit around the yellow ball representing the sun. The red line representing the north pole always points to the upper left and the green line representing the south pole always points to the lower right.

Or in other words: "The Earth's axis remains oriented in the same direction, regardless of it's orbital position around the sun."
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 11:53:22 AM by Whiskey »
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29silhouette

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Re: So, you know you can....
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2013, 11:56:15 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on November 13, 2013, 07:51:40 AM
Slow that picture down and you can see how it changes.
Perhaps you could capture a couple individual frames and show us.
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