Mapping in the 21st century

This is how it's done, folks.


http://www.mapbox.com/blog/openstreetmap-gps-layer/
This article shows that community and open source mapping are better than imagery. With the abundance of GPS systems available and open-source mapping. It becomes maps that basically make themselves.

This shows that RE maps are accurate! Country/continent shapes are correct. Flights, shipping lanes, etc. are going shortest distances. There is no magic happening where GPS devices are being controlled by the government. This is mapping made by the public.

This is also how for instance you can check your area with imagery you doubt. So many times I read that FErs don't have the resources to make their own maps. Rowbotham would be so envious of the resources you guys have. Tom you can trace a journey across africa!

Edited because the link wouldn't work on my phone

The very article you posted explains that current maps often show things hundreds of feet (sic) away from where they should be.

Are you... arguing for FE? Which side are you on?!

That said, it's a neat project that I haven't heard about. Very relevant to my interests as a computer scientist, completely irrelevant to this forum (as it's entirely inconclusive, and in fact shows evidence of the current maps inaccuracy). Can I request a move to T&I?

The very article you posted explains that current maps often show things hundreds of feet (sic) away from where they should be.

Are you... arguing for FE? Which side are you on?!

That said, it's a neat project that I haven't heard about. Very relevant to my interests as a computer scientist, completely irrelevant to this forum (as it's entirely inconclusive, and in fact shows evidence of the current maps inaccuracy). Can I request a move to T&I?

And how accurate are the FE maps, if you even acknowledge their existence? In fact they have inaccuracies of thousands of kilometers.

By the way, an error of a hundred feet (some 30 meters) in a 12600 km Earth is something like 0.0002% error, much better than pretty much any measurement you can make with any equipment except for the very best laboratory equipment. Just to make a comparison, if you make a chair with the best equipment a carpenter can have you still have a 0.1% error in most measurements.

This argument (if you are not totally right then you are totally wrong) is probably the worst of all the stupid arguments you find in this forum.

...Can I request a move to T&I?

I agree with this sentiment. Moving to T&I.

And how accurate are the FE maps, if you even acknowledge their existence? In fact they have inaccuracies of thousands of kilometers.

FO made a certain claim, and simultaneously disproved it with a link. Also, this system would produce results that appear exactly as accurate as consistent regardless of what map the co-ordinates will be plotted against. Keep in mind that the common FE maps can be trivially produced from RE maps, and vice versa, through trivial distortion.

Actually, that sounds like a neat project to work on if I ever get some free time. Plotting this data against a FE map and then claiming that it Totally Works(tm) just like FO did just now. However, that won't happen for at least half a year, possibly longer than that. University is hard, y'all.

By the way, an error of a hundred feet (some 30 meters) in a 12600 km Earth is something like 0.0002% error

Yes, because the diameter of the Earth is exactly the figure you want to use here. Y'know, as opposed to some figures that are actually relevant, like the width of the road, or distances of certain points of the road from identifiable geographical features.

For someone that calls themselves a RealScientist, you sure enjoy to distort data.

This argument (if you are not totally right then you are totally wrong) is probably the worst of all the stupid arguments you find in this forum.

He's not totally wrong. Like I said, it's a cool project, and I'm glad he posted it. It's just that it has ab-so-lute-ly nothing to do with FET or RET. You can plot the same data on any map (z0mg the Earth is a cube lololol look at this map!) and it'll work just fine. In fact, OSM itself seems to have plotted it on a cylindrical map projection of some sort. FO's argument is that this map is accurate. We know it's not. It's inaccurate by definition, especially within RET. He is wrong about his biggest claim, and he is wrong about this map's relevancy to FET.

As for the technical side of things, I wonder just how much could be accomplished with these amounts of traffic data. It could be a great tool to analyse people's "migrating patterns", possibly dividing them into several easily-identifiable categories. I had to do that with tuna diving patterns last year for a project. That was fun.

You can plot the same data on any map (z0mg the Earth is a cube lololol look at this map!) and it'll work just fine.

Until you plot your real world travel time against the prediction the map makes, and then you can find serious discrepancies.

I can't find the GPS trace layer that they're talking about the OP article.  I go to OpenStreetMap and click on the layers tab, but nor GPS layer.  There's a link on the bottom left for GPS traces, but they're not displayed on a map, they're just the most recently uploaded traces.

I can't find the GPS trace layer that they're talking about the OP article.  I go to OpenStreetMap and click on the layers tab, but nor GPS layer.  There's a link on the bottom left for GPS traces, but they're not displayed on a map, they're just the most recently uploaded traces.

You have to open up the editor. When they say iD that is one of the editors. Make an account click edit. On the right click on the layers icon (background) then check the box for "OpenStreetMap GPS Traces"

Until you plot your real world travel time against the prediction the map makes, and then you can find serious discrepancies.

Maps do not make predictions of travel times.

Quote from: garygreen on October 25, 2013, 10:16:11 AM

I can't find the GPS trace layer that they're talking about the OP article.  I go to OpenStreetMap and click on the layers tab, but nor GPS layer.  There's a link on the bottom left for GPS traces, but they're not displayed on a map, they're just the most recently uploaded traces.

You have to open up the editor. When they say iD that is one of the editors. Make an account click edit. On the right click on the layers icon (background) then check the box for "OpenStreetMap GPS Traces"

Thanks.  I finally got it figured out.

Quote from: Rama Set on October 25, 2013, 06:06:56 AM

Until you plot your real world travel time against the prediction the map makes, and then you can find serious discrepancies.

Maps do not make predictions of travel times.

The GPS data on which the maps are based are available for download from the OpenStreetMap site.  I'd don't know if it does, but I'd think there's a reasonable chance that there's some record of the arrival and departure times.  Someone more capable than I am could probably find out.

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 25, 2013, 10:25:41 AM

Quote from: garygreen on October 25, 2013, 10:16:11 AM

I can't find the GPS trace layer that they're talking about the OP article.  I go to OpenStreetMap and click on the layers tab, but nor GPS layer.  There's a link on the bottom left for GPS traces, but they're not displayed on a map, they're just the most recently uploaded traces.

You have to open up the editor. When they say iD that is one of the editors. Make an account click edit. On the right click on the layers icon (background) then check the box for "OpenStreetMap GPS Traces"

Thanks.  I finally got it figured out.

Quote from: PizzaPlanet on October 25, 2013, 01:11:03 PM

Quote from: Rama Set on October 25, 2013, 06:06:56 AM

Until you plot your real world travel time against the prediction the map makes, and then you can find serious discrepancies.

Maps do not make predictions of travel times.

The GPS data on which the maps are based are available for download from the OpenStreetMap site.  I'd don't know if it does, but I'd think there's a reasonable chance that there's some record of the arrival and departure times.  Someone more capable than I am could probably find out.

Yes files contain time-stamps.  Gpx can be opened in a text-editor. They have tags of lat/long, elevation, and time.  You can look at your last points compared to your first points to figure distance using lat/long and figure out your duration with the time-stamps.

You can import them into Google Earth which will calculate for you minimum/maximum/average speed, elev, slope.  I understand Google Earth is not for everyone.  A programmer would be able to write a code that will calculate it all  if you don't like the idea of Google Earth.

You could also use this to cross-check Lat/long and distance driven in the southern hemisphere. Because a FE map would have enlarged Lat/Long grids in the southern hemisphere.  Two lat/long points a mile apart in the northern hemisphere would be much farther apart than a mile in the southern hemisphere at the same parallel line.

Because a FE map would have enlarged Lat/Long grids in the southern hemisphere.

Oh, you're attacking that model...

Fair enough, I'll let someone that subscribes to that nonsense answer this, then.

Quote from: e on October 25, 2013, 04:00:39 PM

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Quote from: Rama Set on October 25, 2013, 06:06:56 AM

Until you plot your real world travel time against the prediction the map makes, and then you can find serious discrepancies.

Maps do not make predictions of travel times.

I don't know if you are playing some semantic game or what, but maps are clearly used to make factual predictions for travel times.

The very article you posted explains that current maps often show things hundreds of feet (sic) away from where they should be.

Are you... arguing for FE? Which side are you on?!

That said, it's a neat project that I haven't heard about. Very relevant to my interests as a computer scientist, completely irrelevant to this forum (as it's entirely inconclusive, and in fact shows evidence of the current maps inaccuracy). Can I request a move to T&I?

Right. Inaccuracies in imagery. Imagery has been the easiest way to make maps for a long time. But unless you have a super long lens and enough time to photograph every spot of earth from directly above it, you're going to get inaccuracies from perspectives and stitching together (that applies to flat and round earth.)

Anyway the method of imagery has got us this far but now it's time for something more accurate. One GPS trace will not be perfect but the more and more add to their precision. There are inaccuracies on the current maps because their method of making them is now outdated. Open-source mapping made by the public is proving to be very effective.

And now for RE/FE. FErs claim they don't have the resources to map. (Cite multiple Tom Bishop quotes here). Local government pays to have companies fly over and make aerial imagery for them. Other imagery comes from satellites. All of it is expensive and skeptic inducing.

GPS tracing works. Do you trust your odometer and your sense of direction? Get in your car take a trip, mark the distance, GPS trace it, cross check it... Voila! The mapping playing field has been leveled

Now drive across Africa. It's what Rowbotham would want.

I don't know if you are playing some semantic game or what, but maps are clearly used to make factual predictions for travel times.

No, they are not.

Right. Inaccuracies in imagery. Imagery has been the easiest way to make maps for a long time. But unless you have a super long lens and enough time to photograph every spot of earth from directly above it, you're going to get inaccuracies from perspectives and stitching together (that applies to flat and round earth.)

Correct, which is why I said that your map does not support RET.

Anyway the method of imagery has got us this far but now it's time for something more accurate. One GPS trace will not be perfect but the more and more add to their precision. There are inaccuracies on the current maps because their method of making them is now outdated. Open-source mapping made by the public is proving to be very effective.

Yes, but you have to decide what to plot the GPS data against. You can trivially plot it on a Mercator projection, a globe, a South-centric FE map, or even rottingroom's retarded avatar. Points in a co-ordinate system are worthless if the co-ordinate system itself is what you try to debate.

And now for RE/FE. FErs claim they don't have the resources to map. (Cite multiple Tom Bishop quotes here). Local government pays to have companies fly over and make aerial imagery for them. Other imagery comes from satellites. All of it is expensive and skeptic inducing.

Correct.

GPS tracing works. Do you trust your odometer and your sense of direction? Get in your car take a trip, mark the distance, GPS trace it, cross check it... Voila! The mapping playing field has been leveled

No, fuck you. This is the last time I'm going to explain this to you. You could plot that data against either FE or RE and get consistent results. Your inability to follow this is concerning, and if you're planning to start saying the same things over and over again, then I'll just stop responding - it's a waste of time for both of us.

Now drive across Africa. It's what Rowbotham would want.

Pass, already done that in Australia with Parsifal.

Quote from: Rama Set on October 25, 2013, 05:07:46 PM

I don't know if you are playing some semantic game or what, but maps are clearly used to make factual predictions for travel times.

No, they are not.

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 25, 2013, 11:36:35 PM

Right. Inaccuracies in imagery. Imagery has been the easiest way to make maps for a long time. But unless you have a super long lens and enough time to photograph every spot of earth from directly above it, you're going to get inaccuracies from perspectives and stitching together (that applies to flat and round earth.)

Correct, which is why I said that your map does not support RET.

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 25, 2013, 11:36:35 PM

Anyway the method of imagery has got us this far but now it's time for something more accurate. One GPS trace will not be perfect but the more and more add to their precision. There are inaccuracies on the current maps because their method of making them is now outdated. Open-source mapping made by the public is proving to be very effective.

Yes, but you have to decide what to plot the GPS data against. You can trivially plot it on a Mercator projection, a globe, a South-centric FE map, or even rottingroom's retarded avatar. Points in a co-ordinate system are worthless if the co-ordinate system itself is what you try to debate.

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 25, 2013, 11:36:35 PM

And now for RE/FE. FErs claim they don't have the resources to map. (Cite multiple Tom Bishop quotes here). Local government pays to have companies fly over and make aerial imagery for them. Other imagery comes from satellites. All of it is expensive and skeptic inducing.

Correct.

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 25, 2013, 11:36:35 PM

GPS tracing works. Do you trust your odometer and your sense of direction? Get in your car take a trip, mark the distance, GPS trace it, cross check it... Voila! The mapping playing field has been leveled

No, fuck you. This is the last time I'm going to explain this to you. You could plot that data against either FE or RE and get consistent results. Your inability to follow this is concerning, and if you're planning to start saying the same things over and over again, then I'll just stop responding - it's a waste of time for both of us.

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 25, 2013, 11:36:35 PM

Now drive across Africa. It's what Rowbotham would want.

Pass, already done that in Australia with Parsifal.

Let me nominate this post for most original thought! Since when is Australia Africa?

Allow me to explain simply. If you take a picture of a road that has or is along a slope, your picture is going to distort where the road lies. Scale the picture to size and slap a scale on it? Wrong. Sloped roads will be longer than the scale on the map. GPS corrects for both these errors.

Pictures do not account for slopes, that's why that road in the article was off.

So you are playing a semantic game. Cool. Well of there are two factors that go in to calculating travel time: one is speed, the other is course. People often plot the course of their travel on a map from which you can determine distance using the scale of the map. Then you divide that distance by your average expected velocity and voila! You have made a prediction of travel time using a map and having an idea of how fast you will travel. This prediction can be considered a decent test of the maps accuracy.

Let me nominate this post for most original thought! Since when is Australia Africa?

What? I never claimed that. How much original thought (drugs) did you have to do to come up with this?

Allow me to explain simply. If you take a picture of a road that has or is along a slope, your picture is going to distort where the road lies. Scale the picture to size and slap a scale on it? Wrong. Sloped roads will be longer than the scale on the map. GPS corrects for both these errors.

Pictures do not account for slopes, that's why that road in the article was off.

I understand your argument, despite your terrible attempts at "explaining" it. It's still completely irrelevant to FET vs. RET.

So you are playing a semantic game. Cool.

No, I'm not.

[a long explanation of s=vt]

Yes, in an overly-idealised world. Now, would you expect to drive across the entirety of Africa at 50km/h or 100km/h? Or maybe it's 150km/h?

Don't take me wrong, your analysis is possible - it would just be hellishly difficult due to a plethora of side factors affecting velocities, and it would still be entirely inconclusive. It would be no more informative than just using an odometer.

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 26, 2013, 05:37:00 PM

Let me nominate this post for most original thought! Since when is Australia Africa?

What? I never claimed that. How much original thought (drugs) did you have to do to come up with this?

Now drive across Africa. It's what Rowbotham would want.

Pass, already done that in Australia with Parsifal.

You've already driven across Africa... in Australia...

Pizza Planet, first you accuse me of contradicting myself with the article I posted. So I explained to you why the current maps are inaccurate. I wasn't explaining to you a FET vs. RET discussion. I'm saving that for someone that can grasp the concepts.  So far, you and I are struggling with Africa vs. Australia.  Your quotes couldn't be any more clear that you think driving across Africa has been done in Australia.

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 25, 2013, 11:36:35 PM

Now drive across Africa. It's what Rowbotham would want.

Quote from: PizzaPlanet on October 26, 2013, 05:20:02 AM

Pass, already done that in Australia with Parsifal.

You've already driven across Africa... in Australia...

Yes, here's a picture from our trip:

You've already driven across Africa... in Australia...

No, I haven't. Are you really so dense as to derail your own thread with your lack of comprehension of English?

Pizza Planet, first you accuse me of contradicting myself with the article I posted. So I explained to you why the current maps are inaccurate.

And thus confirming that my accusations were correct. Thank you for that, by the way.

So far, you and I are struggling with Africa vs. Australia.

Please do not create a fake sense of community. It's just you that's struggling here. I've even clarified my meaning to you, several times, and even then you claim that:

Your quotes couldn't be any more clear that you think driving across Africa has been done in Australia.

Imagine the following: Alice asks Bob if he'd like to go swimming at the FlatOrange Waterpark of Fun and Joy. Bob says "No, thank you, I already swam today at the PizzaPlanet Palace of Dreams". Alice is then presented with a choice: she can insist on invoking ambiguity in a situation that's not ambiguous, or she can choose not to do so. Alice chooses not to do so, having quickly realised that she would have no point. Good job, Alice. If only others were like you!

I'm done with you now. You've been shown why your thread has nothing to do with FET vs. RET many times by a number of people, so my work here is done. You're not willing to accept it and are instead focusing on semantics. So be it.

You're also not willing to discuss T&I in a T&I thread, so at this point I'm lost as to your point. Perhaps you'll find some noobs to entertain you. Best of luck!

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 27, 2013, 12:59:34 AM

You've already driven across Africa... in Australia...

No, I haven't. Are you really so dense as to derail your own thread with your lack of comprehension of English?

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 27, 2013, 12:59:34 AM

Pizza Planet, first you accuse me of contradicting myself with the article I posted. So I explained to you why the current maps are inaccurate.

And thus confirming that my accusations were correct. Thank you for that, by the way.

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 27, 2013, 12:59:34 AM

So far, you and I are struggling with Africa vs. Australia.

Please do not create a fake sense of community. It's just you that's struggling here. I've even clarified my meaning to you, several times, and even then you claim that:

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 27, 2013, 12:59:34 AM

Your quotes couldn't be any more clear that you think driving across Africa has been done in Australia.

Imagine the following: Alice asks Bob if he'd like to go swimming at the FlatOrange Waterpark of Fun and Joy. Bob says "No, thank you, I already swam today at the PizzaPlanet Palace of Dreams". Alice is then presented with a choice: she can insist on invoking ambiguity in a situation that's not ambiguous, or she can choose not to do so. Alice chooses not to do so, having quickly realised that she would have no point. Good job, Alice. If only others were like you!

I'm done with you now. You've been shown why your thread has nothing to do with FET vs. RET many times by a number of people, so my work here is done. You're not willing to accept it and are instead focusing on semantics. So be it.

You're also not willing to discuss T&I in a T&I thread, so at this point I'm lost as to your point. Perhaps you'll find some noobs to entertain you. Best of luck!

I didn't say drive across a continent. I said Africa. It's okay if you don't understand why Australia does not qualify as "driving across Africa". Lurk moar and you might know why I say Africa. Or ask Tom Bishop.

This thread is in tech & info so it's a different discussion than the FEG one.

Here's an analogy you can understand pizza planet.

"Hey Timmy, go measure the pool at Pizza Planet's swim club, I want to see if it's as wide as it is long like they say."

 Timmy's response, "no thanks, I already measured the pool at Parsifal's place."

"Timmy, you're a fucking moron."

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 25, 2013, 11:36:35 PM

Now drive across Africa. It's what Rowbotham would want.

Pass, already done that in Australia with Parsifal.

Liar.  Everyone knows that Australia doesn't exist.

FlatOrange, please keep that language in the lower fora.

markjo, please just stop. 

FlatOrange, please keep that language in the lower fora.

markjo, please just stop.

I thought this was the lower fora after all look how pizza planet talks

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 25, 2013, 11:36:35 PM

GPS tracing works. Do you trust your odometer and your sense of direction? Get in your car take a trip, mark the distance, GPS trace it, cross check it... Voila! The mapping playing field has been leveled

No, fuck you. This is the last time I'm going to explain this to you. You could plot that data against either FE or RE and get consistent results. Your inability to follow this is concerning, and if you're planning to start saying the same things over and over again, then I'll just stop responding - it's a waste of time for both of us.

Quote from: FlatOrange on October 25, 2013, 11:36:35 PM

Now drive across Africa. It's what Rowbotham would want.

Pass, already done that in Australia with Parsifal.