One vs one debate

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sceptimatic

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2013, 05:35:02 PM »
No.  Take a length of string, a globe and a map and you can figure out the difference.
Assuming the flat map of the globe is a correct depiction, right?

If that's the case and you run the string over a set point to a set point, then do the same by using the same curve of the string from a set point to a set point on the flat map...what difference would there be? Have you tried this?

I just did this. Used a 1 foot string. I will post my measured difference after you do.
I haven't done it, that's why I'm asking.

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sceptimatic

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2013, 05:37:45 PM »
Wouldn't going over a curve as in your globe be the same as going around a circle as in flat earth.

 Yes you can turn around in circles on a flat earth as well, but these planes fly what is known as the great circle. Airlines fly the most economical route possible.  Anywhere around the globe. The maps of a flat earth cannot account for the plane flight plaths we observe. Saying..."we don't know what the flat eart looks like" is quite problematic for all those who navigate the globe. They all use maps which are accurate and all of these maps are based on the earth being a sphere. They also fly across places you wouldn't expect them to fly if you would use any of the FE map. The earth can only be a sphere. Which still holds up to all observations.

I also have yet to hear any contradiction for the RET. I was hoping in this debate I wouldn't be the only one talking here and showing what is wrong with the other theory.
Do you agree that it's possible that they could have projected a flat earth map to fit a globe. If you're after the truth and not here to simply play guardian to the globe model. Is it possible?

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2013, 05:57:19 PM »
Do you agree that it's possible that they could have projected a flat earth map to fit a globe. If you're after the truth and not here to simply play guardian to the globe model. Is it possible?

Could you ellaborate on that? So they made a map that would correspond with a sphere, is that what you're saying?

So you say that the earth is flat, but they made maps that would correspond with a sphere. Then at the same time these maps should correspond with a flat earth, because otherwise they can't be used in real life. Problem is that the flat maps do not correspond with a true flat earth, because as said. The shortest distance between San Fransisco and Tokyo is to fly cross the pacific, near Hawaii and not all the way around near Alaska and Russia.


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EnglshGentleman

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2013, 06:00:45 PM »
So you say that the earth is flat, but they made maps that would correspond with a sphere. Then at the same time these maps should correspond with a flat earth, because otherwise they can't be used in real life.

Please elaborate on this. Because I do not know a single person that travels using a globe. Everybody that I know uses a FLAT map, so clearly it is working just fine.

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sceptimatic

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2013, 06:03:12 PM »
Do you agree that it's possible that they could have projected a flat earth map to fit a globe. If you're after the truth and not here to simply play guardian to the globe model. Is it possible?

Could you ellaborate on that? So they made a map that would correspond with a sphere, is that what you're saying?

So you say that the earth is flat, but they made maps that would correspond with a sphere. Then at the same time these maps should correspond with a flat earth, because otherwise they can't be used in real life. Problem is that the flat maps do not correspond with a true flat earth, because as said. The shortest distance between San Fransisco and Tokyo is to fly cross the pacific, near Hawaii and not all the way around near Alaska and Russia.
No, I'm not saying maps correspond with a sphere, I'm saying that the map is a flat earth map and superimposed on a model sphere for our benefit, because, let's face it, nobody flies using a globe in the cockpit, do they.

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2013, 06:14:07 PM »
So you say that the earth is flat, but they made maps that would correspond with a sphere. Then at the same time these maps should correspond with a flat earth, because otherwise they can't be used in real life.

Please elaborate on this. Because I do not know a single person that travels using a globe. Everybody that I know uses a FLAT map, so clearly it is working just fine.

Certainly can. Could you show me the flat map that shows the entire world accurately?

None of the flat maps show the world the way it is. These kind of maps do not show the north pole as the middle of the earth as you would expect with the flat earth. http://files.myopera.com/neot/albums/366450/Flat-World-Map.gif
The FE map circling here on this website http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Flat_earth.png
with a centered North Pole has other distortions. That is, the flight distance between Australia and South Africa is far greater on this map than the distance between England and Hawaii. While in the world I am living on this is approxamitely the same distance

Also the flight from Australia would fly cross China, Middle East and Africa on that flat earth map. While if you would observe the live flights they would fly across the vast Ocean, near Antartica. The flight paths we observe only correspond with a spherical earth.

So once again. Show me the flat map that shows the entire earth accurately. There is none and that is why we observe these funny flight paths on a flat map.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 06:16:03 PM by Don Quichotte »

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2013, 01:09:38 PM »
Like I've mentioned before, the flight paths don't have anything to do with shortest distances.  It has to do with what is most beneficial for the aircraft....fuel usage and air resistance.

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2013, 02:12:09 PM »
Like I've mentioned before, the flight paths don't have anything to do with shortest distances.  It has to do with what is most beneficial for the aircraft....fuel usage and air resistance.

To give him proper credit, one should note that fuel usage by itself DOES correspond to shortest path. And as for air resistance, that largely depends on the speed at which you fly, not the path itself.

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th3rm0m3t3r0

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2013, 02:19:25 PM »
Like I've mentioned before, the flight paths don't have anything to do with shortest distances.  It has to do with what is most beneficial for the aircraft....fuel usage and air resistance.
The shortest distance would be the most beneficial and economical.


I don't profess to be correct.
Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2013, 02:33:55 PM »
To give him proper credit, one should note that fuel usage by itself DOES correspond to shortest path. And as for air resistance, that largely depends on the speed at which you fly, not the path itself.
Air resistance also corresponds to fuel usage.

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2013, 03:12:06 PM »
Like I've mentioned before, the flight paths don't have anything to do with shortest distances.  It has to do with what is most beneficial for the aircraft....fuel usage and air resistance.

To give him proper credit, one should note that fuel usage by itself DOES correspond to shortest path. And as for air resistance, that largely depends on the speed at which you fly, not the path itself.

Well there is thruth in both of it. To EarthIsASpaceship. Which do you think is the most beneficial in terms of fuel. Let's keep it simple. let's take away winds and there is only the distance to consider. One route is 1000 km long and there is one of 1200 km long. Which one would you choose?

The 1000 km route is the shortest one so you will burn the least fuel, you agree?

However, is the shortest route also the most economical at all times? No. This has to do with changes in winds and yes that is air resistance. If there is a strong head wind of 200 km/h on the 1000 km route, the 1200 km route is the most economical in this case. Given that there is no head wind on that route of course.

In my example, if there would only be a 20 km/h head wind on the 1200 km route, the 1000 km route becomes the most economical again. So you see that despite the strong headwind the shortest route is quite favourable. That is why planes often fly close to the shortest route possible.

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robintex

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2013, 03:50:20 PM »
No.  Take a length of string, a globe and a map and you can figure out the difference.
Assuming the flat map of the globe is a correct depiction, right?

If that's the case and you run the string over a set point to a set point, then do the same by using the same curve of the string from a set point to a set point on the flat map...what difference would there be? Have you tried this?


Even FE has said there is no FE Map. The FE Map generally shown is merely a copy of a Polar Projection of a GLOBE. Distances and shapes south of the equator are vastly distorted. If there is no FE Map how are you going to navigate  a FE without a FE map ?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 04:16:47 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

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robintex

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2013, 03:52:03 PM »

The FET also does not correspond with real world observations, to name one. Flights for example. On the FE map distances between Australia and South Africa would take them across China, India and the Middle east, because that is the shortest distance. In real life however these flights fly close to the Southpole.

Quote
There are too many variables. Performance is effected by fuel loads, ambient temperatures and pressures, engine models, the list goes on. Depending on what is happening with other traffic you might be in a hold, or routed out of your way to avoid other traffic or storms. The pilots do not fly direct to their destination either. Depending on the wind they might take off in the opposite direction to the intended route. They then fly SIDS (Standard Instrument Departures) onto a route, follow some beacons, get onto an Oceanic Highway on the way their, follow a STAR (STandard ARrival) on approach, and again go right round the back of an airport to land in the right direction. When pilots are following routes like the typical ones below, how can anyone make a simple straight line DST comparison to ascertain shape? Only the aircraft's Flight Management System really knows how far that trip is. The pilot just uses the data it provides. However FMS source code is closely guarded.

Below is a SID example. Note how the pilots fly curves and loops. They do not go direct.


The map shown is just that. Showing DEPARTURE  routes from an airport.
This is just one type of map used in air traffic control . There are many others such as enroute maps, etc.. Aircraft usually fly on the most direct route in most cases.
I am a retired FAA employee. I was involved in the technical aspects such communications, radars and computers but we used all types of charts and maps in our work. Approach and departure control maps such as the one shown were just one of many maps produced by the FAA. You might compare the map English Gentleman has posted to a street map of a city. You wouldn't use a city map for cross country travel. Enroute and other maps would be like using a highway map of a state for example.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 04:11:40 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

*

EnglshGentleman

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2013, 10:35:18 PM »
I am a bit confused. At one point you are saying that the shortest route is to fly the artic circle...

Here is another one, from SFO to Japan. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL853
It too is following the great circle.

But in another one you say the opposite?  ???

Problem is that the flat maps do not correspond with a true flat earth, because as said. The shortest distance between San Fransisco and Tokyo is to fly cross the pacific, near Hawaii and not all the way around near Alaska and Russia.

Unless you are thinking about FE, in which case you are thinking about a Mercator map which we don't use. In this one, the shortest flight DOES travel through the artic, and even over the Alaskan Peninsula identically to the way it does in your picture of the flight.


Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2013, 12:06:02 AM »
I am a bit confused. At one point you are saying that the shortest route is to fly the artic circle...

Here is another one, from SFO to Japan. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL853
It too is following the great circle.

But in another one you say the opposite?  ???

Problem is that the flat maps do not correspond with a true flat earth, because as said. The shortest distance between San Fransisco and Tokyo is to fly cross the pacific, near Hawaii and not all the way around near Alaska and Russia.

Unless you are thinking about FE, in which case you are thinking about a Mercator map which we don't use. In this one, the shortest flight DOES travel through the artic, and even over the Alaskan Peninsula identically to the way it does in your picture of the flight.


The Quantas flight QFA27 operates the Sydney-Santiago de Chile route. Please can you draw on your FE accepted map the shortest route it may use ?

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EvilJeffy

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2013, 12:08:03 AM »
But the best route from Australia to South Africa goes almost across India...  Did you notice that part?
Sometimes on this forum I feel like I am kicking puppies, but I have good boots.  Just in case your curious I also have more science training than you do.

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EvilJeffy

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2013, 12:11:11 AM »
Also if you notice Australia is larger than all of North America...  Actual area 2.97 million square miles for Australia, 9.54 million square miles for North America.
Sometimes on this forum I feel like I am kicking puppies, but I have good boots.  Just in case your curious I also have more science training than you do.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2013, 01:27:37 AM »
EvilJeffy, that map is for reference only.  It is not meant to show the exact location or size of any of the continents.  Please grow up.

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2013, 04:15:26 AM »
I am a bit confused. At one point you are saying that the shortest route is to fly the artic circle...

Here is another one, from SFO to Japan. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL853
It too is following the great circle.

But in another one you say the opposite?  ???

Problem is that the flat maps do not correspond with a true flat earth, because as said. The shortest distance between San Fransisco and Tokyo is to fly cross the pacific, near Hawaii and not all the way around near Alaska and Russia.

Unless you are thinking about FE, in which case you are thinking about a Mercator map which we don't use. In this one, the shortest flight DOES travel through the artic, and even over the Alaskan Peninsula identically to the way it does in your picture of the flight.



 
The part which is causing confusion. I was pointing to the fact that the shortest route on a flat map between San Fransisco and Tokyo is to fly cross the pacific, near Hawaii and not all the way around near Alaska and Russia. The flat map I was thinking about was this one
http://www.strokenetwork.net/images/flat%20world%20map.gif

On the mercator map you show, yes the flight would fly close to Alaska, just like we see in real life, but although it may be true for this particular route it is not for other routes. Draw a line from Sydney Australia to Johannesburg South Africa. You will see that it would fly all the way over China, Middle East and the east-coast of Africa.

If there is no map of the flat world we live on then people cannot navigate the world. Because tell me, how would you fly from London to Seattle if you had no clue of how the world looks like? Take out a flat map. The one here circling on the website, which is in the FAQ which the FE defenders say we have to read?

It is only for reference....ok, but then show me the map that does show the world accurately.....

There is none. There are flat maps, yes. Can they be used for navigation? Partially, because you have to account for the earth being a sphere. The difference between the Rhumb line and great circle https://cemp9q.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pnZ4V9XrNTt5t9nTwVY63VHJEhk5LqqZACmEJ_nlWx2Jl6CQun0B5nQi8F0GWqkFKaCL6B7lrmjL1xVkhagwMMr-4O2bPNuXN/mercator_line.png?psid=1

The earth has to be a sphere it cannot otherwise account for the way planes travel around the globe

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EvilJeffy

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2013, 05:48:27 AM »
Ok, so if the map is only for reference then draw me a map of this imaginary flat Earth that does work....

Oh wait....

You can't....

Because it doesn't work unless you are only mapping what you can see out your window and nothing past that.  If you try to map EVERYTHING the whole theory falls apart.
Sometimes on this forum I feel like I am kicking puppies, but I have good boots.  Just in case your curious I also have more science training than you do.

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2013, 10:13:21 AM »
EvilJeffy, that map is for reference only.  It is not meant to show the exact location or size of any of the continents.  Please grow up.

I feel these types of comments are rather poor, especially when coming from a moderator. Telling other posters to "grow up," or assigning their very legitimate criticisms as "babbling," reflects our community badly.

We FE'ers criticize RET often. We hold RE'ers accountable when they say something incorrect or that does not make sense. When they do it to us, the only correct response is one of maturity and honesty. When you begin making personal statements, all it does is make FET appear un-credible, since if it was, one would not need to behave this way.   

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robintex

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2013, 12:56:00 PM »
EvilJeffy, that map is for reference only.  It is not meant to show the exact location or size of any of the continents.  Please grow up.

Repeat. THERE IS NO FE MAP.
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2013, 08:28:20 PM »
Ever since the Copernican theory was accepted, that is how the leaders of the world have depicted the Earth, as a sphere.  I seriously doubt satellites and mankind have been far enough away from the Earth to see it's entire shape.  Therefore, by them saying "the Earth IS a sphere" without actually KNOWING it is, is deceitful.  It's quite possible NO ONE will ever see the Earth from afar, until we pass on....like in 2001 A Space Odyssey.  So in a way, this debate is worthless.
Look, it's I
Yes we have. And there are a host of small experiments one could perform on their own to verify that the surface of the Earth curves.
Come on, guys.

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2014, 10:46:10 PM »
Seeing a light fly over at a scheduled time does not prove it is what they say it is.  I have yet to see positive proof of it.

Agreed. When you feel your heartbeat, this is not necessarily proof that you have this organ within you. Positive proof is needed. In fact, according to this train of thought, you have no positive proof that you were born (doctor conspiracy), or that your parents are really your parents.

So many things are suspect......why bother caring about the shape of the Earth? You do not even have positive proof of more important aspects of your life.

You see, with this ideology, you have created your interpretation of this world to boil down to one of two things. Either:

A) everyone else on this planet is crazy

or

B) you are.

And that's quite a pickle.
I don't need your sarcasm.  Your comments don't even make sense.  Of course my fricken heart is with me if I FEEL it.  You're acting like an idiot.

Seeker is SPOT on with his/her assertion.. the fact you don't get it comes as no surprise.. and confirms that you fall squarely, and predictably into category B.

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2014, 10:55:00 PM »
EvilJeffy, that map is for reference only.  It is not meant to show the exact location or size of any of the continents.  Please grow up.

FEers use a silly map which has not one single property that is accurate as a "reference" to depict their nonsense flat earth and YOU tell US to grow up?!

That's' one of the funniest lines I've read on this cretin site.

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2014, 12:48:37 AM »

The FET also does not correspond with real world observations, to name one. Flights for example. On the FE map distances between Australia and South Africa would take them across China, India and the Middle east, because that is the shortest distance. In real life however these flights fly close to the Southpole.

Quote
There are too many variables. Performance is effected by fuel loads, ambient temperatures and pressures, engine models, the list goes on. Depending on what is happening with other traffic you might be in a hold, or routed out of your way to avoid other traffic or storms. The pilots do not fly direct to their destination either. Depending on the wind they might take off in the opposite direction to the intended route. They then fly SIDS (Standard Instrument Departures) onto a route, follow some beacons, get onto an Oceanic Highway on the way their, follow a STAR (STandard ARrival) on approach, and again go right round the back of an airport to land in the right direction. When pilots are following routes like the typical ones below, how can anyone make a simple straight line DST comparison to ascertain shape? Only the aircraft's Flight Management System really knows how far that trip is. The pilot just uses the data it provides. However FMS source code is closely guarded.

Below is a SID example. Note how the pilots fly curves and loops. They do not go direct.


Old post, sorry about this but...

That graphic is a localised approach plate for a specific airport. Its one of the approach procedures for that location.. it has nothing whatsoever to do with the flight plan overall and that post is a load of garbage.

Edit.. eh! sorry, they are departure plates.. as clearly stated on the graphic itself! lol  Sorry for being sloppy.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 07:27:50 AM by SirSpankalot »

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2014, 12:53:13 AM »
Ever since the Copernican theory was accepted, that is how the leaders of the world have depicted the Earth, as a sphere.  I seriously doubt satellites and mankind have been far enough away from the Earth to see it's entire shape.  Therefore, by them saying "the Earth IS a sphere" without actually KNOWING it is, is deceitful.  It's quite possible NO ONE will ever see the Earth from afar, until we pass on....like in 2001 A Space Odyssey.  So in a way, this debate is worthless.

To doubt these things, I can't imagine what sort of sheltered and blinkered life one must lead. Astonishing.

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Starman

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2014, 06:29:17 AM »
Ok, I want to discuss the FET one on one. Who of the FE people dares to take the stage?

It is the same old story with FE'ers. You ask for a single challenge to have a one debate on a subject and you get all of this. They always answer a question with a question or distract the issue with some stupid remark. It is like talking to a 14 year old kid. Don't ask them to prove something because they will NEVER give you a scientist answer. Remember these people do not have a scientific mind. Just theories and opinions.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2014, 06:46:40 AM »
Ok, I want to discuss the FET one on one. Who of the FE people dares to take the stage?

It is the same old story with FE'ers. You ask for a single challenge to have a one debate on a subject and you get all of this. They always answer a question with a question or distract the issue with some stupid remark. It is like talking to a 14 year old kid. Don't ask them to prove something because they will NEVER give you a scientist answer. Remember these people do not have a scientific mind. Just theories and opinions.

Wow, Starman.  You have been here for almost a week, yet, somehow you know everything about us.  How am I going to die?  Wait, don't answer that.  ::)

You claim that we do not have a scientific mind or give scientific answers.  Perhaps you could share your scientific expertise with us? 

Re: One vs one debate
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2014, 07:31:00 AM »
Ok, I want to discuss the FET one on one. Who of the FE people dares to take the stage?

It is the same old story with FE'ers. You ask for a single challenge to have a one debate on a subject and you get all of this. They always answer a question with a question or distract the issue with some stupid remark. It is like talking to a 14 year old kid. Don't ask them to prove something because they will NEVER give you a scientist answer. Remember these people do not have a scientific mind. Just theories and opinions.

Wow, Starman.  You have been here for almost a week, yet, somehow you know everything about us.  How am I going to die?  Wait, don't answer that.  ::)

You claim that we do not have a scientific mind or give scientific answers.  Perhaps you could share your scientific expertise with us?

YOu pretty much don't. Starman's right..

I've seen some attempts at scientific answers but they were nothing more than a strong of technical words, out of context and without a modicum of value.  Some here literally make stuff up as they're going and even change the laws of physics as if they are God to suit their argument.