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atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc

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neutral22

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atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« on: October 20, 2013, 06:55:49 PM »
We all remember learning about Rutherford, JJ Thompson, Dalton, and the core subject of chemistry and the periodic table, chemical and nuclear reactions etc.

Q: Are neutrons spheres and do electrons orbit neutrons as traditionally taught?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 07:02:36 PM by neutral22 »
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Lorddave

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 07:11:59 PM »
What you're taught is for the ease of learning.
Electrons are in a cloud but it's more of a charge and not a little dot.
Neutrons are the same thing.  Yes they have mass but they aren't spheres.
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neutral22

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2013, 07:25:21 PM »
read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutherford_model

"Rutherford overturned Thomson's model in 1911"
recap: JJ Thompson did that famous plum pudding experiment to estimate the size of atoms/particles based on the quantity of particles that escaped through the gold foil (but I don't think Thompson made any statement about orbiting).

This article just says that Rutherford made alpha particles to disprove it, and then created a new interpretation... very vague, poorly written wiki article.. this is the crucial aspect of Rutherford and then Niels Bohr, but I have difficult time finding things online that really explain well how they "disproved" JJ Thompson, and then took the giant leap to describe a planetary style orbiting neutron/electron atom...

the american text books are only good for learning the core of chemistry, but I think the argument of if electrons spin or don't spin is meaningless to actual chemistry. Dalton's chemistry existed before Bohr and Rutherford.

 
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neutral22

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2013, 07:56:51 PM »
a university source:
http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec11.html

"results can best explained by a model for the atom as a tiny, dense, positively charged core called a nucleus, in which nearly all the mass is concentrated, around which the light, negative constituents, called electrons, circulate at some distance, much like planets revolving around the Sun "

so, it's just an interpretation that there is orbiting..

As far as practical chemistry goes, I am not sure if there is any difference between whether atoms orbit, or don't orbit. most of core chemistry is still based on dalton who cared not even to wonder about if there was orbiting or not orbiting...
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Alchemist21

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2013, 08:16:33 PM »
What happened in Rutherford's experiment was that a very few particles were deflected at far wider angles than should have been possible with the plum pudding model (a little deflection was expected from hitting the electrons).  This led him to develop the concept of an atomic nucleus.
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Tausami

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2013, 11:51:59 AM »
This is a question for quantum mechanics.

Electrons don't really orbit the nucleus. They form probabilistic arrangements, and they usually aren't spherical. It's much more complicated than a bunch of balls with smaller balls circling them.
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EnigmaZV

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2013, 01:58:16 PM »
Quote from: Tausami on October 23, 2013, 11:51:59 AM
This is a question for quantum mechanics.

Electrons don't really orbit the nucleus. They form probabilistic arrangements, and they usually aren't spherical. It's much more complicated than a bunch of balls with smaller balls circling them.

Unless you're sitting there watching them. Then it is that simple.
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iznih

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2013, 02:40:01 PM »
nope, because that would equal a simultaneous measurment of position and momentum which is not possible. what you would see (not in a literal sense) is the electron popping up at various locations given by its wavefunction
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sokarul

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2013, 09:19:17 PM »
Quote from: iznih on October 23, 2013, 02:40:01 PM
nope, because that would equal a simultaneous measurment of position and momentum which is not possible. what you would see (not in a literal sense) is the electron popping up at various locations given by its wavefunction
I think he was agreeing with you.

In other news, electrons are not the only thing with a wave function. Obviously everything has a wave function. Like electron clouds, alpha particles show there wave function quite often. 
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Parsifal

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2013, 12:14:06 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on October 23, 2013, 09:19:17 PM
In other news, electrons are not the only thing with a wave function. Obviously everything has a wave function. Like electron clouds, alpha particles show there wave function quite often.

Incorrect. Electrons are able to function as both waves and particles due to their small size and low mass; larger particles are unable to transform into waves because they are too big and heavy.
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EnigmaZV

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2013, 02:04:33 PM »
Quote from: Parsifal on October 24, 2013, 12:14:06 PM
Quote from: sokarul on October 23, 2013, 09:19:17 PM
In other news, electrons are not the only thing with a wave function. Obviously everything has a wave function. Like electron clouds, alpha particles show there wave function quite often.

Incorrect. Electrons are able to function as both waves and particles due to their small size and low mass; larger particles are unable to transform into waves because they are too big and heavy.

It was my understanding that the larger particles' wave functions were just very uninteresting.
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iznih

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2013, 02:57:27 PM »
Quote from: EnigmaZV on October 24, 2013, 02:04:33 PM
Quote from: Parsifal on October 24, 2013, 12:14:06 PM
Quote from: sokarul on October 23, 2013, 09:19:17 PM
In other news, electrons are not the only thing with a wave function. Obviously everything has a wave function. Like electron clouds, alpha particles show there wave function quite often.

Incorrect. Electrons are able to function as both waves and particles due to their small size and low mass; larger particles are unable to transform into waves because they are too big and heavy.

It was my understanding that the larger particles' wave functions were just very uninteresting.
to my knowledge every object has a wavefunction assigned to it. one has to be careful though. for elementary particles there's not much to discuss as we're talking about standard single particle wavefunctions (eg electrons). Composite particles require composite wavefunctions but it is still possible to observe quantum effects on these larger scales. Eg the double slit experiment has been demonstrated for molecules consisting of 60 carbon atoms. Another good example would be Bose-Einstein condensates that are macroscopic quantum objects with a well defined macroscopic wave function.
The main reason why we're not observing quantum effects in everyday life is called decoherence. Basically this means that you (your body) and any object are exchanging photons or any other kind of interaction. As a result you're getting quantum entangled with the object and to you it appears as if the object's wavefunction collapsed. It's sort of an continuous measurement process. In fact you and said object just form a bigger composite particle with a more complicated wavefunction.
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Thork

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2013, 03:06:07 PM »
Quote from: Lorddave on October 20, 2013, 07:11:59 PM
What you're taught is for the ease of learning.
Electrons are in a cloud but it's more of a charge and not a little dot.
Neutrons are the same thing.  Yes they have mass but they aren't spheres.
And then when you are a bit older they teach you that electrons are probability density functions.
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sokarul

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2013, 03:30:04 PM »
Quote from: iznih on October 24, 2013, 02:57:27 PM
Quote from: EnigmaZV on October 24, 2013, 02:04:33 PM
Quote from: Parsifal on October 24, 2013, 12:14:06 PM
Quote from: sokarul on October 23, 2013, 09:19:17 PM
In other news, electrons are not the only thing with a wave function. Obviously everything has a wave function. Like electron clouds, alpha particles show there wave function quite often.

Incorrect. Electrons are able to function as both waves and particles due to their small size and low mass; larger particles are unable to transform into waves because they are too big and heavy.

It was my understanding that the larger particles' wave functions were just very uninteresting.
to my knowledge every object has a wavefunction assigned to it. one has to be careful though. for elementary particles there's not much to discuss as we're talking about standard single particle wavefunctions (eg electrons). Composite particles require composite wavefunctions but it is still possible to observe quantum effects on these larger scales. Eg the double slit experiment has been demonstrated for molecules consisting of 60 carbon atoms. Another good example would be Bose-Einstein condensates that are macroscopic quantum objects with a well defined macroscopic wave function.
The main reason why we're not observing quantum effects in everyday life is called decoherence. Basically this means that you (your body) and any object are exchanging photons or any other kind of interaction. As a result you're getting quantum entangled with the object and to you it appears as if the object's wavefunction collapsed. It's sort of an continuous measurement process. In fact you and said object just form a bigger composite particle with a more complicated wavefunction.

Parsifal you shouldn't argue physics with me. Like iznih said, I am indeed right. The equation to calculate De Broglie's wavelength is simply wavelength=planks constant over momentum. This simple equation works well to find the wavelength of a baseball.
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Parsifal

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2013, 02:39:04 AM »
Quote from: sokarul on October 24, 2013, 03:30:04 PM
Parsifal you shouldn't argue physics with me. Like iznih said, I am indeed right. The equation to calculate De Broglie's wavelength is simply wavelength=planks constant over momentum. This simple equation works well to find the wavelength of a baseball.

Once again, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Waves carry energy, not mass. This works well when particles have a small mass, as they can easily carry the wave. As they get bigger, they gain more inertia, and so they absorb any wave energy instead of carrying it. This is basic physics.
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sokarul

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2013, 02:45:18 PM »
Quote from: Parsifal on October 25, 2013, 02:39:04 AM
Quote from: sokarul on October 24, 2013, 03:30:04 PM
Parsifal you shouldn't argue physics with me. Like iznih said, I am indeed right. The equation to calculate De Broglie's wavelength is simply wavelength=planks constant over momentum. This simple equation works well to find the wavelength of a baseball.

Once again, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Waves carry energy, not mass.
E=mc2 remember? Waves carry mass in the form of energy. I don't actually know how this matters to the topic though.
 
Quote
This works well when particles have a small mass, as they can easily carry the wave.
They don't carry waves, they are waves to some degree. If you did my baseball problem you would see you get a wavelength of about 1.1283*10-33m. There is no absorbing anything. That's simply it's De Broglie's wavelength. You don't see a baseball acting like a wave before the wavelength is so small. 

Quote
As they get bigger, they gain more inertia, and so they absorb any wave energy instead of carrying it. This is basic physics.
Wat?
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Quote from: Shifter on July 05, 2020, 09:53:30 AM
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iznih

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2013, 02:47:16 PM »
Quote from: Parsifal on October 25, 2013, 02:39:04 AM
Quote from: sokarul on October 24, 2013, 03:30:04 PM
Parsifal you shouldn't argue physics with me. Like iznih said, I am indeed right. The equation to calculate De Broglie's wavelength is simply wavelength=planks constant over momentum. This simple equation works well to find the wavelength of a baseball.

Once again, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Waves carry energy, not mass. This works well when particles have a small mass, as they can easily carry the wave. As they get bigger, they gain more inertia, and so they absorb any wave energy instead of carrying it. This is basic physics.
Are you talking about classical waves like sound waves or waves on water surfaces?
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Parsifal

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2013, 07:20:53 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on October 25, 2013, 02:45:18 PM
E=mc2 remember? Waves carry mass in the form of energy. I don't actually know how this matters to the topic though.

Very clever of you, bringing up an equation which is irrelevant in this context. Do you even have a degree?

Quote from: sokarul on October 25, 2013, 02:45:18 PM
They don't carry waves, they are waves to some degree. If you did my baseball problem you would see you get a wavelength of about 1.1283*10-33m. There is no absorbing anything. That's simply it's De Broglie's wavelength. You don't see a baseball acting like a wave before the wavelength is so small.

In order for a baseball to be acting as a wave, it would need to be carrying energy. A baseball simply has too much inertia to maintain such a wave for very long.
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Lorddave

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2013, 08:53:04 PM »
Quote from: Parsifal on October 25, 2013, 07:20:53 PM

Quote from: sokarul on October 25, 2013, 02:45:18 PM
They don't carry waves, they are waves to some degree. If you did my baseball problem you would see you get a wavelength of about 1.1283*10-33m. There is no absorbing anything. That's simply it's De Broglie's wavelength. You don't see a baseball acting like a wave before the wavelength is so small.

In order for a baseball to be acting as a wave, it would need to be carrying energy. A baseball simply has too much inertia to maintain such a wave for very long.
Isn't that a contradictory statement? All matter has energy and even if it doesn't maintain a wave for long, its still acting like a wave.
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Quote from: wise on May 26, 2023, 05:06:05 AM
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sokarul

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2013, 02:36:39 AM »
Quote from: Parsifal on October 25, 2013, 07:20:53 PM
Quote from: sokarul on October 25, 2013, 02:45:18 PM
E=mc2 remember? Waves carry mass in the form of energy. I don't actually know how this matters to the topic though.

Very clever of you, bringing up an equation which is irrelevant in this context. Do you even have a degree?
Why yes I do. Didn't you drop out?

Quote
Quote from: sokarul on October 25, 2013, 02:45:18 PM
They don't carry waves, they are waves to some degree. If you did my baseball problem you would see you get a wavelength of about 1.1283*10-33m. There is no absorbing anything. That's simply it's De Broglie's wavelength. You don't see a baseball acting like a wave before the wavelength is so small.

In order for a baseball to be acting as a wave, it would need to be carrying energy. A baseball simply has too much inertia to maintain such a wave for very long.
I already showed you what the wavelength of a baseball is at 45 m/s. You need to disprove De Broglie's wavelength before you can continue spouting nonsense.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 08:09:51 AM by sokarul »
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Rama Set

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2013, 06:00:28 AM »
Baseball's are not Quantum mechanical. You cannot calculate its wavelength using Quantum Mechanical theories.
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sokarul

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2013, 08:09:10 AM »
Quote from: Rama Set on October 26, 2013, 06:00:28 AM
Baseball's are not Quantum mechanical. You cannot calculate its wavelength using Quantum Mechanical theories.
The equation I used is not limited to quantum things. If you have a problem with what I did, please write to the proper authorities and tell them physics books are wrong. For you see, I did not come up with the idea of calculating the De Broglie's wavelength of a baseball, is in physics book. I did it when I was in school. It's also online. 
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Parsifal

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2013, 09:13:28 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on October 26, 2013, 02:36:39 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on October 25, 2013, 07:20:53 PM
Very clever of you, bringing up an equation which is irrelevant in this context. Do you even have a degree?
Why yes I do. Didn't you drop out?

As far as I know, your specialisation is in chemistry. I'm going to need some evidence that you know what you're talking about with physics before I start considering your statements to be credible.

Quote from: sokarul on October 26, 2013, 02:36:39 AM
I already showed you what the wavelength of a baseball is at 45 m/s. You need to disprove De Broglie's wavelength before you can continue spouting nonsense.

You have presented an equation without any justification whatsoever. You have made no case for me to disprove.
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Quote from: Ævan on August 11, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
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sokarul

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2013, 09:36:00 PM »
Quote from: Parsifal on October 26, 2013, 09:13:28 PM
Quote from: sokarul on October 26, 2013, 02:36:39 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on October 25, 2013, 07:20:53 PM
Very clever of you, bringing up an equation which is irrelevant in this context. Do you even have a degree?
Why yes I do. Didn't you drop out?

As far as I know, your specialisation is in chemistry. I'm going to need some evidence that you know what you're talking about with physics before I start considering your statements to be credible.
My minor is physics. You will have to take my word for it.

Quote
Quote from: sokarul on October 26, 2013, 02:36:39 AM
I already showed you what the wavelength of a baseball is at 45 m/s. You need to disprove De Broglie's wavelength before you can continue spouting nonsense.

You have presented an equation without any justification whatsoever. You have made no case for me to disprove.
You have only presented your opinion. Here is is what I was posting about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie_wavelength
Which is of course related to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-particle_duality

Not sure why you can't look that up yourself, seeing is how you are unaware of it.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2013, 11:14:10 PM »
Jesus, Sokarul.  Why do you let yourself get sucked in so easily?
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sokarul

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2013, 11:47:47 PM »
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on October 26, 2013, 11:14:10 PM
Jesus, Sokarul.  Why do you let yourself get sucked in so easily?
You act like Parsifal isn't a drop out. Why is it so hard to believe he is a complete moron? He weights 300 pounds and can't shave his beard. Why is it so hard to believe he really is that dumb?
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Quote from: Shifter on July 05, 2020, 09:53:30 AM
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2013, 03:19:21 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on October 26, 2013, 09:36:00 PM
My minor is physics. You will have to take my word for it.
Why would we?
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Rama Set

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2013, 04:32:16 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on October 26, 2013, 11:47:47 PM
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on October 26, 2013, 11:14:10 PM
Jesus, Sokarul.  Why do you let yourself get sucked in so easily?
You act like Parsifal isn't a drop out. Why is it so hard to believe he is a complete moron? He weights 300 pounds and can't shave his beard. Why is it so hard to believe he really is that dumb?

I did not know weight was inversely proportional to intellect.  Which physics class was that taught in?
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sokarul

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2013, 05:04:54 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set on October 27, 2013, 04:32:16 PM
Quote from: sokarul on October 26, 2013, 11:47:47 PM
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on October 26, 2013, 11:14:10 PM
Jesus, Sokarul.  Why do you let yourself get sucked in so easily?
You act like Parsifal isn't a drop out. Why is it so hard to believe he is a complete moron? He weights 300 pounds and can't shave his beard. Why is it so hard to believe he really is that dumb?

I did not know weight was inversely proportional to intellect.  Which physics class was that taught in?
It's taught at the bar.
Quote from: Rama Set on October 26, 2013, 06:00:28 AM
Baseball's are not Quantum mechanical. You cannot calculate its wavelength using Quantum Mechanical theories.
Are you going to back up your statement or can this thread die?
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: atoms,neutrons,electrons,etc
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2013, 07:00:51 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on October 26, 2013, 09:36:00 PM
My minor is physics.
Quote from: sokarul on October 27, 2013, 05:04:54 PM
Are you going to back up your statement or can this thread die?
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