What's wrong with Capitalism?

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Ocius

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What's wrong with Capitalism?
« on: October 14, 2013, 03:58:04 PM »
The compensation you receive is proportional to the services you offer society. It seems like natural selection is alive and well in Capitalism. Why would we want to go against the fundamental forces of the universe?

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Thork

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2013, 04:00:26 PM »
Because the person pushing the largest snowball picks up the most snow.

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Ocius

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013, 04:05:40 PM »
Even the peasants will take every opportunity to scam the system. Why are they so surprised when they find out someone with a smarter brain and more money did the same?

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Pyrolizard

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013, 04:40:59 PM »
The compensation you receive is proportional to the services you offer society. It seems like natural selection is alive and well in Capitalism. Why would we want to go against the fundamental forces of the universe?

So natural selection should be followed?  Just so we're clear, you're for executing the mentally and physically disabled, correct?  I'm guessing your immediate reaction is no.  Natural selection isn't humane, there's a reason we don't do exactly that. 

There are also other issues.  For instance, those who aren't born into favorable circumstances, be it financially, environmentally, or parentally, won't have the same potential to offer society something as one born into more ideal circumstances would.  This is often through no fault of their own, and leads to lasting inability for many unfortunates to turn themselves toward more socially beneficial roles.
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DuckDodgers

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 04:47:06 PM »
You could argue that the reason we are having so much troubles with over population, world hunger, etc. is from going against natural selection and maintaining illness in the gene pool and preventing deaths which otherwise should have happened.
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Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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Pyrolizard

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 05:03:28 PM »
You could argue that the reason we are having so much troubles with over population, world hunger, etc. is from going against natural selection and maintaining illness in the gene pool and preventing deaths which otherwise should have happened.

This is true, that could be argued.  I would counter again by saying, it's still inhumane to allow a person to die when we can save them.  World hunger and overpopulation are problems we have to deal with now, and we will.
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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 06:11:30 PM »
It would help if we could define 'capitalism' so we don't end up twisting the word to mean whatever is most convenient to argue for or against. Believing that you should be rewarded for work or services, and believing in survival of the fittest (however you want to define that), are not the same things. Personally I don't have a problem with individuals becoming very wealthy, even through say inheritence, so long as they've not totally screwed over the rest of society to do so. More to the point it's not wealth I would see as a problem, it's wealth flouted at the same time that abject poverty exists, since it's most likely the two are connected.

Seems you're wandering into anarchist/objectivist/free-for-all territory here. So, let me ask you a question: You're in charge of your countries government. What do you do to enforce this notion of natural selection, and how do you expect it to be superior to what exists currently? Do you shutdown any notions of the welfare state, national healthcare, government-run agencies etc?

That's a much more interesting route to explore rather than platitudes about ghetto math geniuses I think.

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Lorddave

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 06:20:54 PM »
Capitalism doesn't care about social class, education, or who your parents were. All it cares about is what you can offer. If you have an elementary school education and were born in a ghetto, but you are a mathematical genius, you will never be poor.
This is so horribly wrong. 

That's like saying Van Gogh, being one of the greatest painters in history, was a rich man.

Being a mathematical genius only helps if people know you're a math genius.  If you have an elementary school education and are born in the ghetto, odds are you'll be more worried about walking home than you will be about Calculus.  You probably won't even know what calculus is nor will anyone teach you since you're only as smart as a 5th grader.



Anyway, Capitalism's problem is that it's a very slow, self regulating system.  See, one person can easily become a monopoly.  Once that occurs, de-throneing him/her is very difficult.  Assuming regulations are out of the question, the only solution is boycott.  But that's extremely difficult since it requires a few things.

1. A large enough group of people willing to do it.
2. Someone willing to offer an alternative product without being prone to bribery or threats to one's life.
3. The ability to not be killed/destroyed(financially) by said monopoly holder.

Eventually every corporation will fall, but it takes far too long.  The damage will be done and it'll take longer for said damage to be repaired.

Kinda like pollution.  It's easy and cheaper but once the damage is done, it takes a while to fix.  The Earth will eventually fix itself even if we trash it, but it'll take thousands of years at least.

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Excelsior John

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 06:28:50 PM »
The compensation you receive is proportional to the services you offer society. It seems like natural selection is alive and well in Capitalism. Why would we want to go against the fundamental forces of the universe?
Because the wholes point of captalism is to let the weak be opresed and die. Sounds nice doesnt it? ::)
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Ocius

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 07:04:47 PM »
I think the real question is : what's wrong about beeing avaricious . ( i think nobody want to speak about that )
can we sometimes relate avarice , egoism and stupidity , with the unconscious destruction of the precarious life that sustain us all

No.

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Pyrolizard

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 07:55:14 PM »
I think the real question is : what's wrong about beeing avaricious . ( i think nobody want to speak about that )
Not really, but since you asked, not as much as you think.  It drives innovation, without it we would stall.  It's really a very important part of human nature if progress is to be achieved, vital to humanity if we want our fellow men to live and prosper for as long as they can.

can we sometimes relate avarice , egoism and stupidity , with the unconscious destruction of the precarious life that sustain us all
Of course.  Can we also relate anthropocentrism to the same?  Yes, although I think we can agree that the survival of humanity is paramount. 

The issue you raise isn't necessarily that of avarice or egoism, avarice forces humans to exercise their minds and may be in pursuit of a noble goal, while egoism forces self preservation in all but the most dire of situations.  The issue stems from stupidity, arrogance, and malice.  The total lack of care for others in pursuit of wealth and self preservation, misanthropic, callous, and ignorant behaviors rather than what the objective behind it.


Now, can we go back to discussing the pitfalls of capitalism?
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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 08:57:36 PM »
Natural selection must never apply to human society. Natural selection also have nothing to do with capitalism. Just because someone inherited wealth or got lucky does not mean he or she is stronger or more adapt.
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Tausami

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 09:38:21 PM »
The main problem with capitalism, I think, is that it fails to promote ethical behavior. In fact, it rather does the opposite. Unfortunately, there really isn't a better system.

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hoppy

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 10:22:51 PM »
Even the peasants will take every opportunity to scam the system. Why are they so surprised when they find out someone with a smarter brain and more money did the same?
Or belonged to a better club, organization.
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Alchemist21

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 10:26:11 PM »
A main problem with capitalism is how it takes money to make money.  The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  Remember Trickle Theory?
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Ocius

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2013, 10:34:11 PM »
A main problem with capitalism is how it takes money to make money.  The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  Remember Trickle Theory?

Yea, but that always happens, no matter what kind of economic system you have. I guess places like Luxembourg and Norway may be a couple exceptions.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2013, 12:56:14 AM »
Capitalism is fine assuming that it is subject to regulation to prevent monopolies, where possible, and that whose who become the winners in capitalism provide enough of a safety net that those who lose aren't utterly destroyed.

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Lorddave

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2013, 03:27:01 AM »
You probably won't even know what calculus is nor will anyone teach you since you're only as smart as a 5th grader.

ITT: Lorddave doesn't know what "genius" means. Your intelligence level isn't much past that of a 5th grader, based on your posting history on this site. There is a difference between intelligence and education. You seem to have missed this. But you always seem to miss the most important points.
Yes I know what genius means.  You seem to have missed the difference between intelligence and knowledge.  No matter how great your intelligence, you will never gain knowledge if you don't reach for it.  And being in the ghetto, opportunities are limited.  Sure you could find a teacher willing to educate you on advanced stuff or a school that recognizes your aptitude, but when you have more important things to worry about than learning math, why would you bother?


Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me as to why a math genius, at the age of 12 and living in the ghetto, would never be poor(ignoring the fact that he's already poor due to his living conditions)?  Why would he become rich instantly under capitalism?

Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2013, 04:11:57 AM »
What the fuck? Capitalism is an economic system, not a form of government.

What the fuck? Capitalism is an economic system that is massively influenced by government. Heck with the endless focus on GDP and growth I'd argue governments are themselves basically capitalist.

I'll phrase my question differently. We have an economic system in place called capitalism. The performance of this system is influenced by loads of factors, eg the price of oil, other goods, the state of the labour market, events across the world etc. Most of these can't be controlled and have to be responded to by the system itself. What can be controlled are things like corporation tax, business regulations, subsidies and grants etc. Hence if one wishes to promote capitalism in whatever form you can alter these relatively easily. So, again, if 'natural selection' is a fundamental force of the universe we should be using, what would you want to see changed in order to achieve that?

If you can't provide an answer then I don't even know what the point of this thread is. Seems it's a standard case of throwing out some vague babbly notion and then berating anyone that doesn't 'get it'.


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Ocius

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2013, 12:46:26 PM »
Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me as to why a math genius, at the age of 12 and living in the ghetto, would never be poor(ignoring the fact that he's already poor due to his living conditions)?  Why would he become rich instantly under capitalism?

Well, he probably wouldn't become instantly rich. But a teacher may discover his talent and put him on the right track for getting properly educated. A math genius will never not be able to find a job, even if he doesn't know what calculus is.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 01:40:09 PM by Andrew »

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Rama Set

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2013, 01:18:32 PM »
Ridiculous statement Andrew.
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Ocius

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 01:41:05 PM »
Ridiculous statement Andrew.

That's why the NSA has a long history of hiring high school dropouts with a high aptitude for mathematics.

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Rama Set

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2013, 01:48:20 PM »
Cool story bro, but not what you said.
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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2013, 01:59:32 PM »
Nothing is wrong with capitalism. It provides an environment which fuels growth and development. Who wants to put additional effort if you are only going to be mildly ahead of everybody else?

Furthermore, capitalism is the best system so far. If we had a better system that did better at fueling businesses, I would have expected it to be around by now.

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EnigmaZV

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2013, 02:06:45 PM »
The only problem with capitalism, is that for it to function optimally, everyone involved in the system needs to have perfect knowledge, and must act as rational agents.
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

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Rama Set

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2013, 03:16:58 PM »
Nothing is wrong with capitalism. It provides an environment which fuels growth and development. Who wants to put additional effort if you are only going to be mildly ahead of everybody else?

Furthermore, capitalism is the best system so far. If we had a better system that did better at fueling businesses, I would have expected it to be around by now.

Pure capitalism has not proven to be the best system so far. Capitalism moderated by government regulation has proven to be more effective in stabilizing banks against market turbulence. For example, after the banking collapse in 2008, Canada did not pay out a dime in bail outs, largely due to capitalization requirements.
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Pyrolizard

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2013, 06:12:13 PM »


Where did he get that amazing dish?  Every time I eat an authentic Lava-Filled Earth CakeTM I get the lava everywhere, it goes right through my normal ceramics and then my table, it even gets through my metal plates!  The knife and fork, too, mine never survive past the third bite.
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Lorddave

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2013, 06:37:09 PM »
sometimes , people do all they can to avoid to face a truth



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All that just for me , may i be the richest of all !
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Pyrolizard

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2013, 07:36:24 PM »
So healty earth, just to be clear, you would prefer the entire world have no aspirations to greatness?  Stalling, with no motivation to innovate when what we're doing now works just fine? 

That's the flaw of Socialism.  Capitalism may be flawed in that it causes suffering of the poor and uneducated masses, but socialism is flawed in that it causes stagnation of humanity and, in certain scenarios, can confer a disregard for the necessary labor to maintain civilization.

Of the two, I can't say which is worse, but a mix of both is certainly better than either if given the option.  You get all the benefits of Capitalism, the desire to innovate so you can fulfill all your wants and dreams, while a good mix of Socialist economic policy provides less suffering for less people.
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: What's wrong with Capitalism?
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2013, 07:58:57 PM »
Furthermore, capitalism is the best system so far. If we had a better system that did better at fueling businesses, I would have expected it to be around by now.
"Since we didn't come up with anything better yet, nothing better is likely to exist" - that's a very counter-productive way of thinking. Luckily, there are many people wise enough not to think like you, because otherwise we'd have no innovation going on whatsoever!
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