Can we stop all this ignorance please?

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rottingroom

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Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« on: October 13, 2013, 01:50:04 PM »
This is a message for flat earthers who think we're being lied to and that humanity doesn't know anything.

#ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Lawrence Krauss: Teaching Creationism is Child Abuse

Lawrence Krauss: It amazes me that people have pre-existing notions that defy the evidence of reality. But that they hold onto them so dearly. And one of them is the notion of creationism, or. in fact, Senator Marco Rubio, who’s presumably a reasonably intelligent man and maybe even educated, was asked what’s the age of the Earth, and ultimately, either because he actually believed it or he was trying to appeal to some constituency, had to argue that it’s a big mystery, that somehow we should teach kids both ideas, that the Earth is 6,000 years old and that it’s 4.55 billion years old, which is what it is.

If you think about that, somehow saying that, well, anything goes, we shouldn't offend religious beliefs by requiring kids to know - to understand reality; that’s child abuse. And if you think about it, teaching kids - or allowing the notion that the earth is 6,000 years old to be promulgated in schools is like teaching kids that the distance across the United States is 17 feet. That’s how big an error it is.

Now you might say, look, a lot of people believe that, so don’t we owe it to them to allow their views to be present in school? Well, as I’ve often said, the purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it. Fifty percent of the people in the United States, when we probe them each year with the National Science Foundation, think that the sun goes around the Earth, not that the Earth goes around the sun. When we asked the question - we provide the question: The Earth goes around the sun and takes a year to do it; true or false? Almost every year, 50 percent of the people get that wrong.

Now, does that mean in schools we should allow the anti-Galilean and Copernican idea that the sun goes around the Earth to be taught? Absolutely not. If, in fact, the very fact that people don’t know that, and the very fact that enough people are willing to somehow believe that Earth is 6,000 years old, means we have to do a better job of teaching physics and biology, not a worse job.

The last thing we want to do is water down the teaching of biology because some people don’t recognize that evolution happened. Evolution is the basis of modern biology and, in fact, if a lot of people don’t believe it, it only means we have to do a better job teaching it. So once again, I repeat, the purpose of education is not to validate ignorance, but to overcome it. And to overcome a situation where a United States Senator can speak such manifest nonsense with impunity is vitally important to the healthy future of our society. 

Technology and biotechnology will be the basis of our economic future. And if we allow nonsense to be promulgated in the schools, we do a disservice to our students, a disservice to our children, and we’re guaranteeing that they will fall behind in a competitive world that depends upon a skilled workforce able to understand and manipulate technology and science.

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Thork

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2013, 02:55:23 PM »
And yet this guy has an equally bizarre explanation based on the premise that an entire universe just spontaneously appeared and worked. Experts call that magic.

I hate these up-their-own-a*se scientists. They are modern day evangelists telling people they can use science to cure all their ills, solve all their problems, perform miracles for them. And all they have to do is purchase whatever gadget/drug/research their company/employer is pushing.

I'm sure this man is very happy with his book sales, tax-payer funded research grants, and corporate sponsorships. Its just a shame he hasn't the good grace to disclose his affiliations before he leaps into this self-congratulatory diatribe.

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rottingroom

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2013, 03:08:44 PM »
Ævan, well that was unnecessary. I think the message is a good one. We shouldn't talk about what is true about the nature of our world except through experimentation and observation. Those two things alone are our only links to reality. Those links tell us all the things we learn in science class rooms. Especially on the FES, where we discuss an object external to our minds.

And no, experts don't call it magic. It's just the opposite of what you are saying. Experts call it science.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 03:13:36 PM by rottingroom »

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Thork

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2013, 03:28:41 PM »
Until a 'scientist' is able to explain how something can be made from nothing, all that talk of big-bangs etc is just magic.

We shouldn't talk about what is true about the nature of our world except through experimentation and observation
You posted a video with a THEORETICAL physicist.  ::)

Krauss seems furious that people don't follow his beliefs and says 'If people still don't agree with me, we must drum it into them even harder as children'. What a sinister and might I add ugly man.

I am dumbfounded at the inward and self important stance of the man. It seems to bother him that a shop keeper or plumber or maid might not follow Copernican beliefs. So what? Why the need to bend their opinion to match his own? Why should they have to have it beaten in to them? They are happy with the beliefs they have.

This nasty, and I hasten to add, wicked eulogiser wants to force his world views on others about things they likely don't even care about and all because its the most important thing in his socially awkward and sexless existence. And he wants to do it by bending the mind of children. Not reasoning with adults. This man would happily cover you in electrodes, saw into your skull and implant a chip in there so long as you thought exactly as he wanted you to.

Thank God, for organisations like the Flat Earth Society that promote free-thinking.

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2013, 03:30:10 PM »
This guy is essentially saying "it is because IT IS".  What a joke.  And there is no proof the Earth goes around the sun so if people want to believe that, they have every right to.  Now shut up and quit complaining.

This guy reiterated how they need to do a better job of brainwashing us.  LOL
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 03:33:42 PM by EarthIsASpaceship »

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rottingroom

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2013, 03:35:23 PM »
This guy is essentially saying "it is because IT IS".  What a joke.  And there is no proof the Earth goes around the sun so if people want to believe that, they have every right to.  Now shut up and quit complaining.

This guy reiterated how they need to do a better job of brainwashing us.  LOL

There isn't?

The discovery of stellar aberration proved that the Earth did in fact move around the Sun and Tycho's system fell out of use among scientists. In the modern era, some of the modern geocentrists use a modified Tychonic system with elliptical orbits, while rejecting the concept of relativity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberration_of_light

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rottingroom

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2013, 03:39:18 PM »
Until a 'scientist' is able to explain how something can be made from nothing, all that talk of big-bangs etc is just magic.

We shouldn't talk about what is true about the nature of our world except through experimentation and observation
You posted a video with a THEORETICAL physicist.  ::)

Krauss seems furious that people don't follow his beliefs and says 'If people still don't agree with me, we must drum it into them even harder as children'. What a sinister and might I add ugly man.

I am dumbfounded at the inward and self important stance of the man. It seems to bother him that a shop keeper or plumber or maid might not follow Copernican beliefs. So what? Why the need to bend their opinion to match his own? Why should they have to have it beaten in to them? They are happy with the beliefs they have.

This nasty, and I hasten to add, wicked eulogiser wants to force his world views on others about things they likely don't even care about and all because its the most important thing in his socially awkward and sexless existence. And he wants to do it by bending the mind of children. Not reasoning with adults. This man would happily cover you in electrodes, saw into your skull and implant a chip in there so long as you thought exactly as he wanted you to.

Thank God, for organisations like the Flat Earth Society that promote free-thinking.

Sure he is a theoretical physicist. Are you saying that he doesn't know the difference between facts and theories? Theories are relevant because we can at least be sure that some part of them are true.

It is fine if one wants to have their own beliefs even if they are wrong at this point of time but times are changing and that way of life is falling off and I agree that teaching dogma is basically child abuse. It is fine for you to believe that the world is 6000 years old but teaching the same to a child with any hope of being something in the future is an effort to withhold knowledge. It's not abuse on the same level as neglect, but it is minor form of it.

The flat-earth society doesn't promote free thinking. It promotes ignorance.

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2013, 03:40:00 PM »
"Krauss seems furious that people don't follow his beliefs and says 'If people still don't agree with me, we must drum it into them even harder as children'. What a sinister and might I add ugly man.

I am dumbfounded at the inward and self important stance of the man. It seems to bother him that a shop keeper or plumber or maid might not follow Copernican beliefs. So what? Why the need to bend their opinion to match his own? Why should they have to have it beaten in to them? They are happy with the beliefs they have.

This nasty, and I hasten to add, wicked eulogiser wants to force his world views on others about things they likely don't even care about and all because its the most important thing in his socially awkward and sexless existence."

I agree with everything you said Aevan, especially the stuff in bold.    ;D

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2013, 03:44:00 PM »
Rotting,
I think teaching kids the Earth is a spinning sphere is "child abuse", as you guys put it.  Let them make their own observation and experiments and LET THEM DECIDE.  It's like religion, it's not fair to influence their beliefs before they are even interested in it or questioning it.  That's called BRAINWASHING.  Accept it.

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Pongo

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 03:48:11 PM »
Ævan is right. The things Krauss says would ashame a myth-maker. To see him producing these videos really shows what tenuous ground he stands on. I've watched many of his videos and he never provides one scrap of proof for what he says. We are all just susposed to merrily gobble up whatever he says? No credulous person takes Krauss serious.

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rottingroom

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2013, 03:49:21 PM »
Rotting,
I think teaching kids the Earth is a spinning sphere is "child abuse", as you guys put it.  Let them make their own observation and experiments and LET THEM DECIDE.  It's like religion, it's not fair to influence their beliefs before they are even interested in it or questioning it.  That's called BRAINWASHING.  Accept it.

No, letting children decide is promoting ignorance. I don't care if you think it is brain washing or indoctrination. If it's true then it is good. Truth and honesty are the ultimate values and teaching facts is what education is about.

Quote from: Lawrence Krauss
When we asked the question - we provide the question: The Earth goes around the sun and takes a year to do it; true or false? Almost every year, 50 percent of the people get that wrong.

You see this is a problem. The fact that some people still don't know this is ridiculous. This kind of ignorance is a cancer on society.

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rottingroom

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2013, 03:49:55 PM »
Ævan is right. The things Krauss says would ashame a myth-maker. To see him producing these videos really shows what tenuous ground he stands on. I've watched many of his videos and he never provides one scrap of proof for what he says. We are all just susposed to merrily gobble up whatever he says? No credulous person takes Krauss serious.

Of course you think he is right. You believe that ignorance is good value.

Furthermore, Krauss gracefully concedes that science is not afraid of being wrong. It is the entire point of the scientific process.

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Thork

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2013, 03:51:08 PM »
Quote from: rottingroom link=topic=60167.msg1553800#msg1553800
Theories are relevant because we can at least be sure that some part of them are true.
Yes, I already know this. We have flat earth theory.

Quote from: rottingroom link=topic=60167.msg1553800#msg1553800
It is fine for you to believe that the world is 6000 years old but teaching the same to a child with any hope of being something in the future is an effort to withhold knowledge. It's not abuse on the same level as neglect, but it is minor form of it.
Scientists are always changing their minds about the age of the earth.
Quote from: http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi144.htm
In 1862, a British scientist, Lord Kelvin, used Fourier's theory to calculate the age of the earth. He knew the earth's temperature increased one degree Fahrenheit for each 50 feet you went into the ground. He guessed that the earth began as molten rock at 7000° F. By solving Fourier's equation, Kelvin found that it must have taken a hundred million years for the earth's temperature to level out to one degree every 50 feet. 
Lord Kelvin was some way off. "But he used science!" you will squeal. Yeah, and school text books for the next 50 years told everyone that the earth was 100 million years old. Was Lord Kelvin guilty of child abuse?
Lord Kelvin didn't know about radioactivity in the earth's core. This muffed up his temperature calculations. There may well be other factors scientists don't know to this day. Are we going to incorrectly tell everyone that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, just because you and narrow minded individuals like Krauss prefer the science answer? It might be wrong and lets face it, it doesn't make a balls bit of difference to 99.9999% of the people on earth.
Do not side with men who wish to brainwash children into their world views rather than reason with adults. Its evil and must be stopped at every opportunity. 

Quote from: rottingroom link=topic=60167.msg1553800#msg1553800
The flat-earth society doesn't promote free thinking. It promotes ignorance.
Ignorance is blindly accepting without question. You are guilty of ignorance. Not the flat earth society.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 03:52:47 PM by Ævan »

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rottingroom

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2013, 03:54:18 PM »
Ævan

1. FET is not a theory. It is a hypothesis and it is incorrect.

2. Scientists aren't changing their mind per se. They are making better estimates based on experimentation and observation being influenced by nothing other than honesty.

3. I do not accept blindly. This again is not how science works. Every experiment can be repeated. It is the entire point.

Anyways, I have to go for a drive.

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Pongo

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2013, 03:58:08 PM »
Ævan is right. The things Krauss says would ashame a myth-maker. To see him producing these videos really shows what tenuous ground he stands on. I've watched many of his videos and he never provides one scrap of proof for what he says. We are all just susposed to merrily gobble up whatever he says? No credulous person takes Krauss serious.

Of course you think he is right. You believe that ignorance is good value.

Furthermore, Krauss gracefully concedes that science is not afraid of being wrong. It is the entire point of the scientific process.

Why would I believe that ignorance is a good value? I, and the whole of TFES, strive for knowledge and truth at our core. I'm sorry that the conclusions that we've reached anger you so, but most of us have spent years reading and learning to get to where we are. Do you think we want to be flat-earth believers for fun? We believe what we believe because truth and reason took us there.

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2013, 04:09:00 PM »
How do you know it's not the stars moving that causes the aberration of light?

Aevan and Pongo,
I respect and admire what you've just said. Excellent comments.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 04:16:22 PM by EarthIsASpaceship »

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rottingroom

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2013, 04:29:31 PM »
Pongo: There can be knowledge to be gained from the mind and such knowledge is called philosophy. Philosophy is good at what it does but it is useless in determine things about the external world. This questing isn't "what do you think the shape of the earth is?", the question is, "what is the shape of the earth?".

We do this not by reading incorrect books and skewed logic. We do this with experimentation. Science books are useful because they contain information that was derived with repeatable experiments that have been peer reviewed. This is a reliable way to get knowledge about the world. It doesn't matter what you think the world is, nature doesn't care about what you think.


Earth: did you bother to read the article? Read about when the abberation of light occurs during a rotation.

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Almostaphysicsmajor

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2013, 04:59:53 PM »
Until a 'scientist' is able to explain how something can be made from nothing, all that talk of big-bangs etc is just magic.

Well then where did the flat earth come from? You have a serious paradox here.

Also, interesting fact, particles are constantly popping in and out of existence in a vacuum all the time.
~Id rather live painfully than die painlessly~

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2013, 05:03:54 PM »
I don't know one FE scientist that claims the Earth came from nothing.
And those particles that pop in and out of a vacuum are Aether.

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rottingroom

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2013, 05:07:58 PM »
I don't know one FE scientist that claims the Earth came from nothing.
And those particles that pop in and out of a vacuum are Aether.

That's because there is no such thing as a flat earth scientist and those are virtual particles, not rather. Thanks for the QED on ignorance tho.

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2013, 05:11:14 PM »
Yes Rot, I know they are virtual particles.  OF WHAT?

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Almostaphysicsmajor

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Tausami

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2013, 05:14:25 PM »
Young Earth Creationism is the worst sort of pseudoscience. As someone with a working knowledge of geology, I'm rather offended that it exists.

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2013, 03:39:12 AM »
I don't know one FE scientist that claims the Earth came from nothing.

That's because there isn't any FE scientist!
I think, therefore I am

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2013, 05:11:48 AM »
There is quite a big difference between teaching what is currently thought to be correct, based on the data provided by the latest technology and experimentation, and teaching what can easily be proven to be incorrect.

The only reason a thing like the FES continues is because it is hard to prove to a skeptical individual that the Earth is round.  That is not to say that it would not be simple to do so, for simple and easy are not the same.  All you would have do is bring all of them to the ISS and leave them up there with a window to look out of for a few orbits.  Unfortunately, that would be extremely costly and frankly not worth the expense.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2013, 05:58:28 AM »
There is quite a big difference between teaching what is currently thought to be correct, based on the data provided by the latest technology and experimentation, and teaching what can easily be proven to be incorrect.

The only reason a thing like the FES continues is because it is hard to prove to a skeptical individual that the Earth is round.  That is not to say that it would not be simple to do so, for simple and easy are not the same.  All you would have do is bring all of them to the ISS and leave them up there with a window to look out of for a few orbits.  Unfortunately, that would be extremely costly and frankly not worth the expense.
Not to mention that no ordinary person is ever going to get the opportunity even if they were filthy rich lottery winners.

They could very easily put this all to bed by allowing people to scrutinise it all. Actually go to a launch pad with a ready to go rocket on it and to inspect it to see if it's all in order and then to have full on surveillance of the so called astronauts actually taking off inside one.

It won't happen, because it's all a load of old smoke and mirrors, in my opinion.

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2013, 07:28:09 AM »
There is quite a big difference between teaching what is currently thought to be correct, based on the data provided by the latest technology and experimentation, and teaching what can easily be proven to be incorrect.

The only reason a thing like the FES continues is because it is hard to prove to a skeptical individual that the Earth is round.  That is not to say that it would not be simple to do so, for simple and easy are not the same.  All you would have do is bring all of them to the ISS and leave them up there with a window to look out of for a few orbits.  Unfortunately, that would be extremely costly and frankly not worth the expense.
Not to mention that no ordinary person is ever going to get the opportunity even if they were filthy rich lottery winners.

They could very easily put this all to bed by allowing people to scrutinise it all. Actually go to a launch pad with a ready to go rocket on it and to inspect it to see if it's all in order and then to have full on surveillance of the so called astronauts actually taking off inside one.

It won't happen, because it's all a load of old smoke and mirrors, in my opinion.

You are saying that you believe this is all faked, that no one has been to outer space?

If you had to bet on it, with you life. If God held a gun to your head and said: "You must choose, and if you are wrong I pull the trigger. So decide, have humans been to space?"

You are telling me that your honest answer, bet with your life, would be: No?

I.....am speechless.

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2013, 07:38:10 AM »

Not to mention that no ordinary person is ever going to get the opportunity even if they were filthy rich lottery winners.

They could very easily put this all to bed by allowing people to scrutinise it all. Actually go to a launch pad with a ready to go rocket on it and to inspect it to see if it's all in order and then to have full on surveillance of the so called astronauts actually taking off inside one.

It won't happen, because it's all a load of old smoke and mirrors, in my opinion.


Incorrect.  This has happened many times.  Thousands of people have witnessed launches.  Dozens of people have made the journey themselves.  As far as the filthy rich are concerned, check out the Wikipedia page on Space Tourism.  Seven people have paid to go to the ISS.  Charles Simonyi even went twice. 

Dismissing or disregarding evidence is very different from disproving evidence.

Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2013, 07:38:44 AM »
Quote
You are saying that you believe this is all faked, that no one has been to outer space?

If you had to bet on it, with you life. If God held a gun to your head and said: "You must choose, and if you are wrong I pull the trigger. So decide, have humans been to space?"

You are telling me that your honest answer, bet with your life, would be: No?

I.....am speechless.
Why are you surprised ? After all, it's the mainstream FE credo. Sceptimatic's is just on the paranoid side, but that's the same conspiracy theory.

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Rama Set

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Re: Can we stop all this ignorance please?
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2013, 10:35:40 AM »
Ævan, read "A Universe From Nothing" and Lawrence Krauss goes through all the evidence, in layman's terms, that provide the basis for the Big Bang. He also proposes a scientifically plausible method for a universe to arise from nothing: no space, no time, no stuff, no laws of physics.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.