Can anyone answer this question.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 07:52:15 AM

Thank you for finally giving a direct answer.  You're absolutely wrong about that though. Water is made of two elements, hydrogen and oxygen.  It takes more than heating to break apart a water molecule. So what is stream? Is it the hydrogen or the oxygen?

Water is made of only two elements is it?

You don't seriously believe that, do you.

Prove me wrong then that water is made of more than hydrogen and oxygen.  Also note that I'm not saying it can't contain others such as sodium and chlorine in salt water, but that the most basic water is only hydrogen and oxygen.

Sceptimatic, do you have ANY evidence for your ideas whatsoever?

Of course it can. Light can exist as a result of purely chemical reactions, producing no vibration or as the result of friction- the two are not the same- now, in a round about way, friction CAN produce light, but through the generation of heat. The friction that keeps my chair to the floor, by contrast, produces no vibrations, no heat.

What do you think a chemical reaction is?
Your chair is under pressure of agitated molecules. It's under friction, only it's so minute, it like imagining watching paint dry. Basically it's under friction and is being worn away as it stands. Like every other think. To be recycled back into the forms that put the structure together. In your terms it takes years and years, even thousands of years for it to be broke down, especially if it's protected inside a home and is not subjected to wind friction, adding to the breakdown.

Likewise, I can put a high intensity flashlight or laster directly against a High Fidelity Microphone, and still pick up no sounds.

Because they are not sensitive enough to pick it up, that's all.

I note you completely failed to answer any of my actual points, including the ping pong/golf ball box counterpoint.

I did answer them. You obviously chose to overlook it.

So, under your worldview, what frequency should I expect my microphone to pick up bog standard white light as?

I don;t even know what you are getting at here, you need to elaborate.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:28:31 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 07:52:15 AM

Thank you for finally giving a direct answer.  You're absolutely wrong about that though. Water is made of two elements, hydrogen and oxygen.  It takes more than heating to break apart a water molecule. So what is stream? Is it the hydrogen or the oxygen?

Water is made of only two elements is it?

You don't seriously believe that, do you.

Prove me wrong then that water is made of more than hydrogen and oxygen.  Also note that I'm not saying it can't contain others such as sodium and chlorine in salt water, but that the most basic water is only hydrogen and oxygen.

You mean the most basic of water that's had all other elements TOOK out of it?
If not. Can you tell me where this natural water exists, because the only place I can see it existing is in clouds...actually in clouds.

Sceptimatic, do you have ANY evidence for your ideas whatsoever?

Do you have any evidence for yours, apart from what you've been told?

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 08:32:18 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:28:31 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 07:52:15 AM

Thank you for finally giving a direct answer.  You're absolutely wrong about that though. Water is made of two elements, hydrogen and oxygen.  It takes more than heating to break apart a water molecule. So what is stream? Is it the hydrogen or the oxygen?

Water is made of only two elements is it?

You don't seriously believe that, do you.

Prove me wrong then that water is made of more than hydrogen and oxygen.  Also note that I'm not saying it can't contain others such as sodium and chlorine in salt water, but that the most basic water is only hydrogen and oxygen.

You mean the most basic of water that's had all other elements TOOK out of it?
If not. Can you tell me where this natural water exists, because the only place I can see it existing is in clouds...actually in clouds.

If you take an element out of water and it is still water then it isn't essential in water's composition.   I also nearly let you skirt my steam question, what is steam if heating causes the release of hydrogen and oxygen? Can I ignite the air above a boiling pot of water since hydrogen is flammable and oxygen is an oxidizer?

Quote from: 11cookeaw1 on October 24, 2013, 08:34:28 AM

Sceptimatic, do you have ANY evidence for your ideas whatsoever?

Do you have any evidence for yours, apart from what you've been told?

I asked first.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:39:58 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 08:32:18 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:28:31 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 07:52:15 AM

Thank you for finally giving a direct answer.  You're absolutely wrong about that though. Water is made of two elements, hydrogen and oxygen.  It takes more than heating to break apart a water molecule. So what is stream? Is it the hydrogen or the oxygen?

Water is made of only two elements is it?

You don't seriously believe that, do you.

Prove me wrong then that water is made of more than hydrogen and oxygen.  Also note that I'm not saying it can't contain others such as sodium and chlorine in salt water, but that the most basic water is only hydrogen and oxygen.

You mean the most basic of water that's had all other elements TOOK out of it?
If not. Can you tell me where this natural water exists, because the only place I can see it existing is in clouds...actually in clouds.

If you take an element out of water and it is still water then it isn't essential in water's composition.   I also nearly let you skirt my steam question, what is steam if heating causes the release of hydrogen and oxygen? Can I ignite the air above a boiling pot of water since hydrogen is flammable and oxygen is an oxidizer?

Steam is just a super agitation of water molecules which releases the oxygen and hydrogen a more expanded state or less dense, whichever way you want to view it and it rises, or shall I say, it's squeezed up by the dense air around it.
You cannot ignite the hydrogen at this point because it's cocooned, it's trapped and will not be released until it expands into the atmosphere. If it's from your kettle, then it's going to be brought back down quite quickly in a dense water build up. If it's outside with the suns rays on it, it will go up and up and up as long as the suns rays allow it, until it separates from the oxygen molecule and keeps going through the other denser layers, leaving the oxygen molecules to condense ( dark clouds) and become too heavy for their environment and they fall.

Is that the top and bottom of it? No, it's not...but it's the basics.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:40:47 AM

Quote from: 11cookeaw1 on October 24, 2013, 08:34:28 AM

Sceptimatic, do you have ANY evidence for your ideas whatsoever?

Do you have any evidence for yours, apart from what you've been told?

I asked first.

Ok, I don't have any physical evidence that can support my claims. Do you have any that can support your claims that can prove me wrong.
I mean, your own evidence...physical evidence?

Quote from: 11cookeaw1 on October 24, 2013, 08:53:21 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:40:47 AM

Quote from: 11cookeaw1 on October 24, 2013, 08:34:28 AM

Sceptimatic, do you have ANY evidence for your ideas whatsoever?

Do you have any evidence for yours, apart from what you've been told?

I asked first.

Ok, I don't have any physical evidence that can support my claims. Do you have any that can support your claims that can prove me wrong.
I mean, your own evidence...physical evidence?

Wait, so your 100% sure your correct, even though you can't show any evidence for any of your claims? That's arrogance to the extreme. How can you be so sure, why are you do sure.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:39:58 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 08:32:18 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:28:31 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 07:52:15 AM

Thank you for finally giving a direct answer.  You're absolutely wrong about that though. Water is made of two elements, hydrogen and oxygen.  It takes more than heating to break apart a water molecule. So what is stream? Is it the hydrogen or the oxygen?

Water is made of only two elements is it?

You don't seriously believe that, do you.

Prove me wrong then that water is made of more than hydrogen and oxygen.  Also note that I'm not saying it can't contain others such as sodium and chlorine in salt water, but that the most basic water is only hydrogen and oxygen.

You mean the most basic of water that's had all other elements TOOK out of it?
If not. Can you tell me where this natural water exists, because the only place I can see it existing is in clouds...actually in clouds.

If you take an element out of water and it is still water then it isn't essential in water's composition.   I also nearly let you skirt my steam question, what is steam if heating causes the release of hydrogen and oxygen? Can I ignite the air above a boiling pot of water since hydrogen is flammable and oxygen is an oxidizer?

Steam is just a super agitation of water molecules which releases the oxygen and hydrogen a more expanded state or less dense, whichever way you want to view it and it rises, or shall I say, it's squeezed up by the dense air around it.
You cannot ignite the hydrogen at this point because it's cocooned, it's trapped and will not be released until it expands into the atmosphere. If it's from your kettle, then it's going to be brought back down quite quickly in a dense water build up. If it's outside with the suns rays on it, it will go up and up and up as long as the suns rays allow it, until it separates from the oxygen molecule and keeps going through the other denser layers, leaving the oxygen molecules to condense ( dark clouds) and become too heavy for their environment and they fall.

Is that the top and bottom of it? No, it's not...but it's the basics.

So clouds are just condensed oxygen?

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 09:01:48 AM

Quote from: 11cookeaw1 on October 24, 2013, 08:53:21 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:40:47 AM

Quote from: 11cookeaw1 on October 24, 2013, 08:34:28 AM

Sceptimatic, do you have ANY evidence for your ideas whatsoever?

Do you have any evidence for yours, apart from what you've been told?

I asked first.

Ok, I don't have any physical evidence that can support my claims. Do you have any that can support your claims that can prove me wrong.
I mean, your own evidence...physical evidence?

Wait, so your 100% sure your correct, even though you can't show any evidence for any of your claims? That's arrogance to the extreme. How can you be so sure, why are you do sure.

Let's see if I can ingrain this into your mind so it saves you from referencing this in the future.

I am not correct by any stretch of the imagination. I cannot directly prove what I'm saying, no more than you can directly prove I'm wrong. You can say I'm wrong and I can say you are wrong. It's just words.
The proof is in the pudding and the eating of it and both of us are clean out and both rely on being told about it. You off of me and me off of you from the text books that you read and the pictures that you see.
A picture of the pudding does not make that pudding real and the words of a wise man does not make that wise man, wise, only perceived to be wise.
This goes for anything told that cannot be physically backed up for all to see and we are all blinded, intentionally, in my opinion.

I am correct in my own mind, like you are in yours and others are in theirs. This is why we are arguing the point, because nobody is going to back down, unless they have no option but to take off their cap and humbly roll it between their fingers saying, " I believed I was right and you have proved me wrong and make no mistake."

This isn't happening, no matter how much kicking and screaming is going on and you can do no other than admit that what you are learning, regardless of it making sense to you, COULD be total misinformation and a case of physics/science (not all) being manipulated to shoehorn what's needed to paint the picture.

If you don't admit this, then you are not being true to yourself and will always accept anything told and then ask for seconds.
If you have an inquiring mind to the alternatives, then you may see that everything in that painted picture is not a true reflection of what actually IS.

I'm fighting my corner, because I believe in what I'm saying, just like you are...except, I'm not doing it by the book. I've decided to start from scratch, because trying to sift through fact and fiction is not an easy task, especially if the authors are clever story writers.

I'm not here to be uncivil or put people down, but I will furiously fight my corner and attempted intimidation techniques used by whoever, will be gorged on like a prime lunch of fillet steak and the trimmings.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:59:31 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:39:58 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 08:32:18 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 08:28:31 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 07:52:15 AM

Thank you for finally giving a direct answer.  You're absolutely wrong about that though. Water is made of two elements, hydrogen and oxygen.  It takes more than heating to break apart a water molecule. So what is stream? Is it the hydrogen or the oxygen?

Water is made of only two elements is it?

You don't seriously believe that, do you.

Prove me wrong then that water is made of more than hydrogen and oxygen.  Also note that I'm not saying it can't contain others such as sodium and chlorine in salt water, but that the most basic water is only hydrogen and oxygen.

You mean the most basic of water that's had all other elements TOOK out of it?
If not. Can you tell me where this natural water exists, because the only place I can see it existing is in clouds...actually in clouds.

If you take an element out of water and it is still water then it isn't essential in water's composition.   I also nearly let you skirt my steam question, what is steam if heating causes the release of hydrogen and oxygen? Can I ignite the air above a boiling pot of water since hydrogen is flammable and oxygen is an oxidizer?

Steam is just a super agitation of water molecules which releases the oxygen and hydrogen a more expanded state or less dense, whichever way you want to view it and it rises, or shall I say, it's squeezed up by the dense air around it.
You cannot ignite the hydrogen at this point because it's cocooned, it's trapped and will not be released until it expands into the atmosphere. If it's from your kettle, then it's going to be brought back down quite quickly in a dense water build up. If it's outside with the suns rays on it, it will go up and up and up as long as the suns rays allow it, until it separates from the oxygen molecule and keeps going through the other denser layers, leaving the oxygen molecules to condense ( dark clouds) and become too heavy for their environment and they fall.

Is that the top and bottom of it? No, it's not...but it's the basics.

So clouds are just condensed oxygen?

Not at all. All elements do not reach the top. Temperature decides what does and does not. Lots of elements get trapped on their way up and lots fall back, but some escape. It's merely the cycle of what we know as life.

I'm still confused.  Steam comes from water when it is boiling, it is the only thing that escapes and all the water will eventually boil at.  This means steam is water, but you're telling me it is hydrogen and oxygen separate but mixed and isn't flammable like it should be of that were the case.  Why don't the manufactures of pure oxygen and hydrogen gases just boil water to produce their product if that's all it takes?

Quote from: 29silhouette on October 23, 2013, 10:05:54 AM

If light is merely vibrations of air molecules like sound, explain why light reflects better off a white surface than a black surface.

Not as easy to answer as it appears. Of course, we can say, "oh, because black absorbs and white reflects", but that's not the whole process.
Black is black to our eyes due to what our eyes see of reflected colours, an artists paint mix, if you like.
Basically. black is the final, so called colour, to us, as we see black as being a colour when in fact it's the end product of all colours, which is why it absorbs all the light, because it absorbs all the colours of that light.
White is the opposite and can reflect all colours.
There's a lot more to it. I'm just giving you a basic explanation, so take it that way. Anything you see around you is a molecule mix to your eyes, so whatever colour you see is just natures mixing palette.

Anything you see, gives off light. But not everything can be seen by you to give off light as you expect light to be, because it's simply far too dull for your eyes to pick up on, yet infra red and such like can pick up that light.
Sound that you hear is still giving off light. It just depends on the vibration of it, which determines what you hear and what you see.

That's a nice explanation of light, but I'm asking about the vibrations, since you say light and sound transmit by vibrations of air.

A white surface reflects more light than a black surface, but makes no difference with sound.  Why would the vibrations echoing off be affected by the color?  I'll even put a sheet of glass over the colored surfaces.  Now the vibrations are reflecting off the glass, yet we can still see a vast difference in the light.  How does a smooth surface absorb some vibrations, but let's other reflect?

I'm still confused.  Steam comes from water when it is boiling, it is the only thing that escapes and all the water will eventually boil at.  This means steam is water, but you're telling me it is hydrogen and oxygen separate but mixed and isn't flammable like it should be of that were the case.  Why don't the manufactures of pure oxygen and hydrogen gases just boil water to produce their product if that's all it takes?

It isn't all it takes. Read what I'm saying.

The atmosphere at sea level is much different higher up. If we could live up there, we would have hydrogen and helium in abundance, as an element on it's own, dependent on where you were at in the layered sandwich.
Simple boiling isn't going to separate at sea level, it has to be put in a false environment to achieve it, like a lot of other stuff.

Quote from: 29silhouette on October 23, 2013, 10:14:58 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 23, 2013, 09:47:38 AM

Ok, detail it all and we will see what happens.

How far down would something need to be lowered before it gets heavier?  Or would it simply increase steadily the lower it goes from the moment it enters the water?

We have to look at the water above the object and the water below, because although the water above exerts pressure, the water below exerts a friction force, basically slowing it's descent and for that reason, we would have a problem, because the water would cancel out any real effect of measurement...basically it would give duff readings, or shall I say, false readings.

I believe you missed the part where I said "I would even stop at intervals and record the readings."

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 09:49:47 AM

I'm still confused.  Steam comes from water when it is boiling, it is the only thing that escapes and all the water will eventually boil at.  This means steam is water, but you're telling me it is hydrogen and oxygen separate but mixed and isn't flammable like it should be of that were the case.  Why don't the manufactures of pure oxygen and hydrogen gases just boil water to produce their product if that's all it takes?

It isn't all it takes. Read what I'm saying.

The atmosphere at sea level is much different higher up. If we could live up there, we would have hydrogen and helium in abundance, as an element on it's own, dependent on where you were at in the layered sandwich.
Simple boiling isn't going to separate at sea level, it has to be put in a false environment to achieve it, like a lot of other stuff.

You just told me a few posts ago that when water is heated that hydrogen and oxygen is released.  So you made the claim that it is that simple.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 04:08:38 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on October 23, 2013, 10:05:54 AM

If light is merely vibrations of air molecules like sound, explain why light reflects better off a white surface than a black surface.

Not as easy to answer as it appears. Of course, we can say, "oh, because black absorbs and white reflects", but that's not the whole process.
Black is black to our eyes due to what our eyes see of reflected colours, an artists paint mix, if you like.
Basically. black is the final, so called colour, to us, as we see black as being a colour when in fact it's the end product of all colours, which is why it absorbs all the light, because it absorbs all the colours of that light.
White is the opposite and can reflect all colours.
There's a lot more to it. I'm just giving you a basic explanation, so take it that way. Anything you see around you is a molecule mix to your eyes, so whatever colour you see is just natures mixing palette.

Anything you see, gives off light. But not everything can be seen by you to give off light as you expect light to be, because it's simply far too dull for your eyes to pick up on, yet infra red and such like can pick up that light.
Sound that you hear is still giving off light. It just depends on the vibration of it, which determines what you hear and what you see.

That's a nice explanation of light, but I'm asking about the vibrations, since you say light and sound transmit by vibrations of air.

A white surface reflects more light than a black surface, but makes no difference with sound.  Why would the vibrations echoing off be affected by the color?  I'll even put a sheet of glass over the colored surfaces.  Now the vibrations are reflecting off the glass, yet we can still see a vast difference in the light.  How does a smooth surface absorb some vibrations, but let's other reflect?

The light is the REFLECTION of the sound.

Think of molecules as tiny little mirrors...reflectors, picture them like a long reflective telescope and you are looking through the large end of that telescope so you see a dot of light at the other.
You are seeing the light unmagnified, yet if you went to the other end, the point of that source and looked...you would see the area lit up, because you are now looking from that point into a magnified spread out area, like a hall of mirrors.
This is the best explanation I can come up with at the minute.
Ok, so think of sound amplified in the same way, following the light. If your telescope turned into an ear trumpet and you put your ear to the large end, you would hear nothing, yet if you went to put it near the small end, you would hear the point of the creation of vibration, (sound) and yet that sound would dissipate into a wide area through the other end.

Note: You have to picture this from a light point only and not come back with something like, "well why do megaphones work then, as we are dealing with another aspect."

So in a nutshell, you will see the light through a window whilst spread out sound will hit all around it and dissipate.
There's a million scenarios to all this, I'm well aware of that, but the basics are there and from that, it can be channelled exactly the same and it's all about build up of friction and how it's released.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 04:56:24 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on October 23, 2013, 10:14:58 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 23, 2013, 09:47:38 AM

Ok, detail it all and we will see what happens.

How far down would something need to be lowered before it gets heavier?  Or would it simply increase steadily the lower it goes from the moment it enters the water?

We have to look at the water above the object and the water below, because although the water above exerts pressure, the water below exerts a friction force, basically slowing it's descent and for that reason, we would have a problem, because the water would cancel out any real effect of measurement...basically it would give duff readings, or shall I say, false readings.

I believe you missed the part where I said "I would even stop at intervals and record the readings."

Ok, fair enough, carry on and fill your boots. I'm interested in your findings and I'm going to do small tests myself...but in the bath. All I need is a digital fish scale or something like that.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:03:57 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 09:49:47 AM

I'm still confused.  Steam comes from water when it is boiling, it is the only thing that escapes and all the water will eventually boil at.  This means steam is water, but you're telling me it is hydrogen and oxygen separate but mixed and isn't flammable like it should be of that were the case.  Why don't the manufactures of pure oxygen and hydrogen gases just boil water to produce their product if that's all it takes?

It isn't all it takes. Read what I'm saying.

The atmosphere at sea level is much different higher up. If we could live up there, we would have hydrogen and helium in abundance, as an element on it's own, dependent on where you were at in the layered sandwich.
Simple boiling isn't going to separate at sea level, it has to be put in a false environment to achieve it, like a lot of other stuff.

You just told me a few posts ago that when water is heated that hydrogen and oxygen is released.  So you made the claim that it is that simple.

Let me tell you this, just once. Read what I'm typing and read it properly and you will see what I'm saying.
If a kettle boils dry, it means it's released it's water into the atmosphere, which means it's released what elements were there, Hydrogen doesn't just jump off at sea level and say, "oh look at me, I'm free"...it's still part of the molecule.

The proof is in the pudding and the eating of it and both of us are clean out and both rely on being told about it.

Actually, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.  But that's the point; you have no pudding to taste.  All you have are wild ideas about how things should be in your mind, but no experiments to prove that they are correct.  You have your mental image of pudding, but no recipe that anyone can use to taste your pudding.  Until you have a pudding recipe, all you have is fantasy.  RET has lots of pudding recipes that you can try for yourself in any decent college physics course.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 09:32:45 AM

The proof is in the pudding and the eating of it and both of us are clean out and both rely on being told about it.

Actually, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.  But that's the point; you have no pudding to taste.  All you have are wild ideas about how things should be in your mind, but no experiments to prove that they are correct.  You have your mental image of pudding, but no recipe that anyone can use to taste your pudding.  Until you have a pudding recipe, all you have is fantasy.  RET has lots of pudding recipes that you can try for yourself in any decent college physics course.

The problem with those recipes is that the puddings always come out, FLAT, when the recipe clearly says otherwise.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 10:13:14 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:03:57 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 09:49:47 AM

I'm still confused.  Steam comes from water when it is boiling, it is the only thing that escapes and all the water will eventually boil at.  This means steam is water, but you're telling me it is hydrogen and oxygen separate but mixed and isn't flammable like it should be of that were the case.  Why don't the manufactures of pure oxygen and hydrogen gases just boil water to produce their product if that's all it takes?

It isn't all it takes. Read what I'm saying.

The atmosphere at sea level is much different higher up. If we could live up there, we would have hydrogen and helium in abundance, as an element on it's own, dependent on where you were at in the layered sandwich.
Simple boiling isn't going to separate at sea level, it has to be put in a false environment to achieve it, like a lot of other stuff.

You just told me a few posts ago that when water is heated that hydrogen and oxygen is released.  So you made the claim that it is that simple.

Let me tell you this, just once. Read what I'm typing and read it properly and you will see what I'm saying.
If a kettle boils dry, it means it's released it's water into the atmosphere, which means it's released what elements were there, Hydrogen doesn't just jump off at sea level and say, "oh look at me, I'm free"...it's still part of the molecule.

That's completely different than what you claimed earlier but okay.
Have you figured out what is expanding when a molecule expands?  Is it the atoms or the space between the atoms?

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:29:33 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 10:13:14 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:03:57 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 09:49:47 AM

I'm still confused.  Steam comes from water when it is boiling, it is the only thing that escapes and all the water will eventually boil at.  This means steam is water, but you're telling me it is hydrogen and oxygen separate but mixed and isn't flammable like it should be of that were the case.  Why don't the manufactures of pure oxygen and hydrogen gases just boil water to produce their product if that's all it takes?

It isn't all it takes. Read what I'm saying.

The atmosphere at sea level is much different higher up. If we could live up there, we would have hydrogen and helium in abundance, as an element on it's own, dependent on where you were at in the layered sandwich.
Simple boiling isn't going to separate at sea level, it has to be put in a false environment to achieve it, like a lot of other stuff.

You just told me a few posts ago that when water is heated that hydrogen and oxygen is released.  So you made the claim that it is that simple.

Let me tell you this, just once. Read what I'm typing and read it properly and you will see what I'm saying.
If a kettle boils dry, it means it's released it's water into the atmosphere, which means it's released what elements were there, Hydrogen doesn't just jump off at sea level and say, "oh look at me, I'm free"...it's still part of the molecule.

That's completely different than what you claimed earlier but okay.
Have you figured out what is expanding when a molecule expands?  Is it the atoms or the space between the atoms?

There is never any space.

Quote from: markjo on October 24, 2013, 10:37:39 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 09:32:45 AM

The proof is in the pudding and the eating of it and both of us are clean out and both rely on being told about it.

Actually, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.  But that's the point; you have no pudding to taste.  All you have are wild ideas about how things should be in your mind, but no experiments to prove that they are correct.  You have your mental image of pudding, but no recipe that anyone can use to taste your pudding.  Until you have a pudding recipe, all you have is fantasy.  RET has lots of pudding recipes that you can try for yourself in any decent college physics course.

The problem with those recipes is that the puddings always come out, FLAT, when the recipe clearly says otherwise.

How can you know this for sure if you've never made the pudding yourself?

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:40:31 AM

Quote from: markjo on October 24, 2013, 10:37:39 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 09:32:45 AM

The proof is in the pudding and the eating of it and both of us are clean out and both rely on being told about it.

Actually, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.  But that's the point; you have no pudding to taste.  All you have are wild ideas about how things should be in your mind, but no experiments to prove that they are correct.  You have your mental image of pudding, but no recipe that anyone can use to taste your pudding.  Until you have a pudding recipe, all you have is fantasy.  RET has lots of pudding recipes that you can try for yourself in any decent college physics course.

The problem with those recipes is that the puddings always come out, FLAT, when the recipe clearly says otherwise.

How can you know this for sure if you've never made the pudding yourself?

I don't know for sure, just as you don't know for sure about this stuff. My pudding is gonna be better than yours. This is the game we are all playing. This is what debates and what not are like.
If one was absolutely correct then we would see DIRECT evidence, not be told about it. Basically we would all see the end product of the pudding that we can physically attest to.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 10:49:01 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:29:33 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 10:13:14 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:03:57 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 09:49:47 AM

I'm still confused.  Steam comes from water when it is boiling, it is the only thing that escapes and all the water will eventually boil at.  This means steam is water, but you're telling me it is hydrogen and oxygen separate but mixed and isn't flammable like it should be of that were the case.  Why don't the manufactures of pure oxygen and hydrogen gases just boil water to produce their product if that's all it takes?

It isn't all it takes. Read what I'm saying.

The atmosphere at sea level is much different higher up. If we could live up there, we would have hydrogen and helium in abundance, as an element on it's own, dependent on where you were at in the layered sandwich.
Simple boiling isn't going to separate at sea level, it has to be put in a false environment to achieve it, like a lot of other stuff.

You just told me a few posts ago that when water is heated that hydrogen and oxygen is released.  So you made the claim that it is that simple.

Let me tell you this, just once. Read what I'm typing and read it properly and you will see what I'm saying.
If a kettle boils dry, it means it's released it's water into the atmosphere, which means it's released what elements were there, Hydrogen doesn't just jump off at sea level and say, "oh look at me, I'm free"...it's still part of the molecule.

That's completely different than what you claimed earlier but okay.
Have you figured out what is expanding when a molecule expands?  Is it the atoms or the space between the atoms?

There is never any space.

There must be space in order to move through a material, seeing as two objects can't occupy the same location at the same time.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:53:17 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 10:49:01 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:29:33 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 10:13:14 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:03:57 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 24, 2013, 09:49:47 AM

I'm still confused.  Steam comes from water when it is boiling, it is the only thing that escapes and all the water will eventually boil at.  This means steam is water, but you're telling me it is hydrogen and oxygen separate but mixed and isn't flammable like it should be of that were the case.  Why don't the manufactures of pure oxygen and hydrogen gases just boil water to produce their product if that's all it takes?

It isn't all it takes. Read what I'm saying.

The atmosphere at sea level is much different higher up. If we could live up there, we would have hydrogen and helium in abundance, as an element on it's own, dependent on where you were at in the layered sandwich.
Simple boiling isn't going to separate at sea level, it has to be put in a false environment to achieve it, like a lot of other stuff.

You just told me a few posts ago that when water is heated that hydrogen and oxygen is released.  So you made the claim that it is that simple.

Let me tell you this, just once. Read what I'm typing and read it properly and you will see what I'm saying.
If a kettle boils dry, it means it's released it's water into the atmosphere, which means it's released what elements were there, Hydrogen doesn't just jump off at sea level and say, "oh look at me, I'm free"...it's still part of the molecule.

That's completely different than what you claimed earlier but okay.
Have you figured out what is expanding when a molecule expands?  Is it the atoms or the space between the atoms?

There is never any space.

There must be space in order to move through a material, seeing as two objects can't occupy the same location at the same time.

Can a cannonball roll through a mass over ping pong balls?

Quote from: markjo on October 24, 2013, 10:55:28 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 10:40:31 AM

Quote from: markjo on October 24, 2013, 10:37:39 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 24, 2013, 09:32:45 AM

The proof is in the pudding and the eating of it and both of us are clean out and both rely on being told about it.

Actually, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.  But that's the point; you have no pudding to taste.  All you have are wild ideas about how things should be in your mind, but no experiments to prove that they are correct.  You have your mental image of pudding, but no recipe that anyone can use to taste your pudding.  Until you have a pudding recipe, all you have is fantasy.  RET has lots of pudding recipes that you can try for yourself in any decent college physics course.

The problem with those recipes is that the puddings always come out, FLAT, when the recipe clearly says otherwise.

How can you know this for sure if you've never made the pudding yourself?

I don't know for sure, just as you don't know for sure about this stuff. My pudding is gonna be better than yours. This is the game we are all playing. This is what debates and what not are like.

Again, you have no recipe to make your pudding, so how can you tell if it's going to be any better than the RET pudding recipes that have been tried and true for a very long time?

If one was absolutely correct then we would see DIRECT evidence, not be told about it. Basically we would all see the end product of the pudding that we can physically attest to.

Do you mean direct evidence like going into space and observing the earth from a great distance?