Can anyone answer this question.

  • 908 Replies
  • 162999 Views
*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30059
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #420 on: October 20, 2013, 06:46:33 AM »
If what you are suggesting is correct, then even on a qualitative front, when I pick something up inside the evacuated chamber it should instantly feel lighter than it does at atmospheric pressure.  However, no object ever does - because the weight is the same either way.
How do you propose to pick something up to measure if it feels lighter to you. You say that no object ever does. How have you managed to do this?
I tell you what, I didn't want to muddy the water here but for the sake of trying to convince you one last time - I'm going to make a concession with regards to pressure affecting weight and tell you that things are actually a bit lighter than their true weight when in our atmosphere.  Before I go any further, the weight of an object is the force measured on the object due to gravity.  This is constant for any given gravitational environment.
Your admittance that air pressure has the effect on the object, should make you question your gravity.
Allow me to digress - and I apologise to all for the can of worms I may be about to open.

You surely acknowledge that a brick in a pond weighs less than a brick sitting on the ground in the atmosphere?   Do you know why this happens?  I'll explain.  As you should know, pressure increases in a body of water as you go deeper.  This fact is indisputable and if you even try to deny it I will abandon this thread and ignore you immediately (it's something you will surely have experienced yourself).  In other words, at any given moment when an object is submerged in water, the water is actually pressing up on it due to the pressure difference above and below it, and this force is equal to the weight of the water displaced by the object so things are lighter underwater - surely you know this?).  This is actually known as Archimedes' principle and actually it extends to all fluids - fluids including gases, i.e. our atmosphere.
A brick in a pond would weigh heavier than it would on land. Not because the brick itself is heavier but because the pressure of the water on it would be more than the pressure of air on it.
Try it.
Go to a swimming pool with a breeze block. If anyone stops you, just explain that it's an experiment you are doing for me. Just mention scepti and try and ignore the dropped eye brows and mean stare.
Anyway: Pick up the block outside of the pool, first, now throw it in and dive down to retrieve it and pick it up and you will see.

Can you open a car door easier against air or submerged in water?
Think about it. It's all about pressure.
So... you can imagine our atmosphere as being rather analogous to the oceans and we are at the bottom of this ocean, where the pressure is greatest.  Like the oceans, the pressure is greater the further down you go, and actually just in the same way that water pushes up on an object with a weight equal to the volume of displaced water - air (or indeed any fluid) does the same thing.  For things on the ground in our atmosphere, the air is actually making them marginally lighter than they would be in a vacuum, however this is virtually negligible at atmospheric pressure and is treated as such.
Water does not push up, it pushes around you, like holding a bar of wet soap in your hand in the bath and squeezing.
Now here's the clincher.  Notice that this buoyancy actually makes something (anything) lighter from their 'true' weight.  If I understand you correctly, you are implying that pressure is keeping things pinned to the earth, when really, in reality - the pressure is acting against gravity (it's just negligible for air - but not in water, as you surely have experienced).  So, due to the fact the density of air lessens as you climb in altitude (interestingly, water's density remains pretty much constant regardless of depth - a fact we should be grateful for as it happens) then things should actually be (negligibly) heavier at great altitudes than they are at sea level - ultimately being their heaviest, or 'true' weight within a vacuum.
Your body is made up of many densities of matter/molecules. Some are intended to be lower and some are intended to be higher than sea level but you (as a mass) grew against the pressure and that pressure is trying to separate you back into the sandwich that makes up the earth, but your body is strong and builds up a strength to counteract it. It's a fight to the death, literally and the pressure wins, every time, on anything that fights against it.
If we were blow up dolls of helium, we would be squeezed into the sky, just like we would if were planted at the bottom of a swimming pool.
That being said, do not misconstrue this as pressure changing the true weight of something.  Ultimately, I will re-iterate that the true weight of an object is a measurement of the force on the object due to gravity and gravity alone - and this is constant for the gravitational environment. 
The true weight of something is it's own density which we can only measure in whatever environment it is in and accept it's weight for that environment as being weight, plus pressure on that weight/mass.
So there Scepti - I just made a concession for you that I didn't really want to make because air buoyancy is negligible.  However, the truth is, with regards to your own theory - pressure actually works in the opposite way to which you suggest.  The pressure of a surrounding fluid actually makes things lighter than they really are - not heavier.  I've clearly spoke about water here so that you understand this, and surely you do.  For air though, this buoyancy is negligible.

So - how does that go down with your way of thinking?
Good story, but it is incorrect. Your gravity is nothing other than pressure on earth. It's all pressure.
We...and every other thing, exists because of it, in whatever forms it takes, from vibration and so on.
Accept it or don't, it's your choice.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30059
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #421 on: October 20, 2013, 06:49:16 AM »
First of all pressure in the atmosphere isn't all exerted downward. If it was we would certainly feel it pushing on our heads. There is pressure all around you. If it was caused by pressure it wouldn't be the same as what we perceive as gravity. We would be violently shoved toward the earth.
Do aquatic life feel the pressure of the water on them?  Probably not.
Exactly. They are just like us, only adapted to their own environments... and whatever depths sea life survives at, their bodies are designed to cope.

I think you should test that hypothesis. Figure out a way to exert a pressure force that would move you at 9.8 m/s/s coming from only one direction. Please do this. :)
Care to elaborate on this?

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30059
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #422 on: October 20, 2013, 06:53:43 AM »
Rab,
It all depends on how you measure weight.  Obviously, objects seem lighter underwater because the water below it is helping to lift the object.  Water is more dense than air, therefore it has more strength, so to speak, to help lift the object.  You HAVE to account for the density of the environment when weighing something.

What?  I am!

Read the post, it's like you actually understand but refuse to digest what I wrote.  Yes, the water exerts more upward force - BUT AIR DOES THE SAME THING, IT'S JUST NEGLIGIBLE IT IS SO SMALL.

The point here is pressure it absolutely NOT keeping things pressed to the earth, IT DOES THE OPPOSITE.  It actually acts AGAINST gravity and makes things LIGHTER.  In other words, things in reality, are actually slightly HEAVIER in a vacuum than at atmospheric pressure. 

This is unreal.  You understand when it is water, you understand that water exerts more force than the air due to it's density, but do you not understand that air is doing exactly the same thing?

Like I said, the atmosphere is like the ocean, and we are at the bottom of said ocean.  We sink in it because air buoyancy is so negligible that most things are dense enough to overcome it under the force of gravity, but that does not change the fact air is actually pushing us upwards, gravity simply overwhelms it to such a degree that we can ignore air buoyancy in all but the most intricate weighing.

The bottom line is Sceptimatic's bogus theory is wrong.  The pressure he speaks of is actually making us negligibly lighter, it's not making us heavy and it's not pressing us to the earth.  Going by the logic you seem to understand, if you go below about 8 ft of water (or something like that) the pressure down there is actually greater than atmospheric - so by Scepti's logic anything that goes deeper than that would be under a greater 'gravitational' force because the pressure is greater.

He's wrong.

See the light - you've almost got it.
Your problem is the mention of gravitational force when arguing the point. Try and see it from the alternate point of view and dismiss it that way, if you can. Which you can't.
The best way to tear something apart, is to use basics and simplistic ways, because it can be understood by all and give people a better insight into what you are actually getting at.

Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #423 on: October 20, 2013, 07:04:32 AM »

Like I said, the atmosphere is like the ocean, and we are at the bottom of said ocean.  We sink in it because air buoyancy is so negligible that most things are dense enough to overcome it under the force of gravity, but that does not change the fact air is actually pushing us upwards, gravity simply overwhelms it to such a degree that we can ignore air buoyancy in all but the most intricate weighing.

The bottom line is Sceptimatic's bogus theory is wrong.  The pressure he speaks of is actually making us negligibly lighter, it's not making us heavy and it's not pressing us to the earth.  Going by the logic you seem to understand, if you go below about 8 ft of water (or something like that) the pressure down there is actually greater than atmospheric - so by Scepti's logic anything that goes deeper than that would be under a greater 'gravitational' force because the pressure is greater.
You just said that most things are more dense than air.  That's all gravity is.  The force (which is PRESSURE) is not dense enough to keep us up.

Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #424 on: October 20, 2013, 07:05:19 AM »
Rab,
It all depends on how you measure weight.  Obviously, objects seem lighter underwater because the water below it is helping to lift the object.  Water is more dense than air, therefore it has more strength, so to speak, to help lift the object.  You HAVE to account for the density of the environment when weighing something.

What?  I am!

Read the post, it's like you actually understand but refuse to digest what I wrote.  Yes, the water exerts more upward force - BUT AIR DOES THE SAME THING, IT'S JUST NEGLIGIBLE IT IS SO SMALL.

The point here is pressure it absolutely NOT keeping things pressed to the earth, IT DOES THE OPPOSITE.  It actually acts AGAINST gravity and makes things LIGHTER.  In other words, things in reality, are actually slightly HEAVIER in a vacuum than at atmospheric pressure. 

This is unreal.  You understand when it is water, you understand that water exerts more force than the air due to it's density, but do you not understand that air is doing exactly the same thing?

Like I said, the atmosphere is like the ocean, and we are at the bottom of said ocean.  We sink in it because air buoyancy is so negligible that most things are dense enough to overcome it under the force of gravity, but that does not change the fact air is actually pushing us upwards, gravity simply overwhelms it to such a degree that we can ignore air buoyancy in all but the most intricate weighing.

The bottom line is Sceptimatic's bogus theory is wrong.  The pressure he speaks of is actually making us negligibly lighter, it's not making us heavy and it's not pressing us to the earth.  Going by the logic you seem to understand, if you go below about 8 ft of water (or something like that) the pressure down there is actually greater than atmospheric - so by Scepti's logic anything that goes deeper than that would be under a greater 'gravitational' force because the pressure is greater.

He's wrong.

See the light - you've almost got it.
Your problem is the mention of gravitational force when arguing the point. Try and see it from the alternate point of view and dismiss it that way, if you can. Which you can't.
The best way to tear something apart, is to use basics and simplistic ways, because it can be understood by all and give people a better insight into what you are actually getting at.

I'm not going to bother with you anymore.  You just told me things are actually heavier underwater - which they are absolutely not.  I've picked things up under water and they are lighter due to the Archimedes' principle.

You are truly unbelievable.

I went through it all in as much detail as I thought would be suffice for you to understand, and then you tell me to take a breeze-block to a swimming pool and see how heavy it is under water.  It would be EASIER, to pick up because it is no longer as heavy.  I cannot actually believe you honestly think things under water are actually heavier.

My girlfriend can lift me off the swimming pool floor when I am standing in 4 foot of water with ease.  She struggles to do this on land because water buoyancy is greater than air buoyancy.

I've never come across such a deluded individual.

Even a young child can verify that objects are lighter underwater.  I remember diving for bricks at swimming classes when I was about 6 years old and realising that the black blocks we used were easier to pick up under water than on the ground.

Are you actually serious?

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30059
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #425 on: October 20, 2013, 07:07:48 AM »
I'll say one thing. Gravity has to rank up there with the best cons in known history. It's clever. If you can't explain something or it doesn't fit in, simply add another ingredient, which changes everything, regardless of knowing how and why it works or what the real ingredient is.

Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #426 on: October 20, 2013, 07:11:11 AM »

Like I said, the atmosphere is like the ocean, and we are at the bottom of said ocean.  We sink in it because air buoyancy is so negligible that most things are dense enough to overcome it under the force of gravity, but that does not change the fact air is actually pushing us upwards, gravity simply overwhelms it to such a degree that we can ignore air buoyancy in all but the most intricate weighing.

The bottom line is Sceptimatic's bogus theory is wrong.  The pressure he speaks of is actually making us negligibly lighter, it's not making us heavy and it's not pressing us to the earth.  Going by the logic you seem to understand, if you go below about 8 ft of water (or something like that) the pressure down there is actually greater than atmospheric - so by Scepti's logic anything that goes deeper than that would be under a greater 'gravitational' force because the pressure is greater.
You just said that most things are more dense than air.  That's all gravity is.  The force (which is PRESSURE) is not dense enough to keep us up.

I'll just leave you two to conquer the scientific world.

You are both so horribly ignorant that I pity you so.

Come back when you have been awarded the Nobel Prize for debunking physics as a whole.

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #427 on: October 20, 2013, 07:12:36 AM »
First of all pressure in the atmosphere isn't all exerted downward. If it was we would certainly feel it pushing on our heads. There is pressure all around you. If it was caused by pressure it wouldn't be the same as what we perceive as gravity. We would be violently shoved toward the earth.
Do aquatic life feel the pressure of the water on them?  Probably not.
Exactly. They are just like us, only adapted to their own environments... and whatever depths sea life survives at, their bodies are designed to cope.

I think you should test that hypothesis. Figure out a way to exert a pressure force that would move you at 9.8 m/s/s coming from only one direction. Please do this. :)
Care to elaborate on this?

It was a joke. I implying that you wouldn't come out of such an experiment alive.


Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #428 on: October 20, 2013, 07:13:47 AM »
I'll say one thing. Gravity has to rank up there with the best cons in known history. It's clever. If you can't explain something or it doesn't fit in, simply add another ingredient, which changes everything, regardless of knowing how and why it works or what the real ingredient is.

Things are heavier underwater - I still can't get over the fact you believe this.

Yet you sit there and have the audacity to call gravity a con.  Think about that - a man who believes things are heavier underwater, says gravity is a con.

It's truly unbelievable.

Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #429 on: October 20, 2013, 07:14:22 AM »
I'll just leave you two to conquer the scientific world.

You are both so horribly ignorant that I pity you so.

Come back when you have been awarded the Nobel Prize for debunking physics as a whole.
LOL No, YOU come back when you understand the truth.  The Earth is flat with a dome over it.

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #430 on: October 20, 2013, 07:14:44 AM »
I'll say one thing. Gravity has to rank up there with the best cons in known history. It's clever. If you can't explain something or it doesn't fit in, simply add another ingredient, which changes everything, regardless of knowing how and why it works or what the real ingredient is.

Gravity is one of the greatest scientific mysteries there is. Figuring it out is a huge scientific problem that the entire world is trying to understand. If you think the cause is pressure then go for it. Try and prove your hypothesis correct.

Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #431 on: October 20, 2013, 07:18:51 AM »
Gravity is one of the greatest scientific mysteries there is. Figuring it out is a huge scientific problem that the entire world is trying to understand. If you think the cause is pressure then go for it. Try and prove your hypothesis correct.
It will always be a mystery to you because you believe the Earth is a sphere and we live on the outside of it, exposed to the blackness of space.  Pressure will never be the answer to you as long as you believe a lie.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30059
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #432 on: October 20, 2013, 07:20:21 AM »
I'm not going to bother with you anymore.  You just told me things are actually heavier underwater - which they are absolutely not.  I've picked things up under water and they are lighter due to the Archimedes' principle.

You are truly unbelievable.
No I didn't. I said things appear heavier but are not actually heavier, yet to you (dependent on the object) it can feel heavier.
It depends on how any given object reacts to sitting at the bottom, as in, it may carry some air trapped in it but not enough to stop it hitting the bottom, in which case it can appear lighter and also something with less or no air trapped within it will feel heavier. It's not a simple easily drawn out thing and you should know this.
I went through it all in as much detail as I thought would be suffice for you to understand, and then you tell me to take a breeze-block to a swimming pool and see how heavy it is under water.  It would be EASIER, to pick up because it is no longer as heavy.  I cannot actually believe you honestly think things under water are actually heavier.
Ok. Go to a knee high pool with a man hole cover on a chain. Firstly, pick up the man hole cover up to your knee height, on dry land, against the atmosphere.
Now drop it in the pool and do the same thing and tell me which is easier.
Think about it.
My girlfriend can lift me off the swimming pool floor when I am standing in 4 foot of water with ease.  She struggles to do this on land because water buoyancy is greater than air buoyancy.

I've never come across such a deluded individual.
You're full of air for crying out loud, she's bound to. Are you serious here?
Even a young child can verify that objects are lighter underwater.  I remember diving for bricks at swimming classes when I was about 6 years old and realising that the black blocks we used were easier to pick up under water than on the ground.

Are you actually serious?
The black blocks were made of rubber.
And you're asking me if I'm serious. ::)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 07:24:42 AM by sceptimatic »

Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #433 on: October 20, 2013, 07:21:55 AM »
Gravity is one of the greatest scientific mysteries there is. Figuring it out is a huge scientific problem that the entire world is trying to understand. If you think the cause is pressure then go for it. Try and prove your hypothesis correct.
It will always be a mystery to you because you believe the Earth is a sphere and we live on the outside of it, exposed to the blackness of space.  Pressure will never be the answer to you as long as you believe a lie.

It's such a shame that all evidence points to the contrary then isn't it? 

You're a very special individual.  You both are actually. 

One word:  evidence

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30059
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #434 on: October 20, 2013, 07:22:49 AM »
I'll say one thing. Gravity has to rank up there with the best cons in known history. It's clever. If you can't explain something or it doesn't fit in, simply add another ingredient, which changes everything, regardless of knowing how and why it works or what the real ingredient is.

Gravity is one of the greatest scientific mysteries there is. Figuring it out is a huge scientific problem that the entire world is trying to understand. If you think the cause is pressure then go for it. Try and prove your hypothesis correct.
Greatest scientific mystery? No, it's not. It's only a mystery as to how people actually swallowed the crap in the first place when atmospheric pressure perfectly explains it.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30059
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #435 on: October 20, 2013, 07:26:20 AM »
Gravity is one of the greatest scientific mysteries there is. Figuring it out is a huge scientific problem that the entire world is trying to understand. If you think the cause is pressure then go for it. Try and prove your hypothesis correct.
It will always be a mystery to you because you believe the Earth is a sphere and we live on the outside of it, exposed to the blackness of space.  Pressure will never be the answer to you as long as you believe a lie.

It's such a shame that all evidence points to the contrary then isn't it? 

You're a very special individual.  You both are actually. 

One word:  evidence
The evidence is all around you. You will never see it if you have a text book jammed against your face. Open your eyes and mind.

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #436 on: October 20, 2013, 07:26:33 AM »
I'll say one thing. Gravity has to rank up there with the best cons in known history. It's clever. If you can't explain something or it doesn't fit in, simply add another ingredient, which changes everything, regardless of knowing how and why it works or what the real ingredient is.

Gravity is one of the greatest scientific mysteries there is. Figuring it out is a huge scientific problem that the entire world is trying to understand. If you think the cause is pressure then go for it. Try and prove your hypothesis correct.
Greatest scientific mystery? No, it's not. It's only a mystery as to how people actually swallowed the crap in the first place when atmospheric pressure perfectly explains it.

We keep showing you contradictions and you offer nothing but pseudo-explanations. It fails at explaining anything. If you think it does then you need to refine your explanations. As it currently stands it does nothing but beg to be dismissed.

?

REphoenix

  • 984
  • Round Earther
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #437 on: October 20, 2013, 07:26:58 AM »
I'll say one thing. Gravity has to rank up there with the best cons in known history. It's clever. If you can't explain something or it doesn't fit in, simply add another ingredient, which changes everything, regardless of knowing how and why it works or what the real ingredient is.

Gravity is one of the greatest scientific mysteries there is. Figuring it out is a huge scientific problem that the entire world is trying to understand. If you think the cause is pressure then go for it. Try and prove your hypothesis correct.
Greatest scientific mystery? No, it's not. It's only a mystery as to how people actually swallowed the crap in the first place when atmospheric pressure perfectly explains it.
It only explains it if you ignore everything that these people are saying to you.
Anyone with a phoenix avatar is clearly amazing.

Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #438 on: October 20, 2013, 07:33:01 AM »
I'm not going to bother with you anymore.  You just told me things are actually heavier underwater - which they are absolutely not.  I've picked things up under water and they are lighter due to the Archimedes' principle.

You are truly unbelievable.
No I didn't. I said things appear heavier but are not actually heavier, yet to you (dependent on the object) it can feel heavier.
It depends on how any given object reacts to sitting at the bottom, as in, it may carry some air trapped in it but not enough to stop it hitting the bottom, in which case it can appear lighter and also something with less or no air trapped within it will feel heavier. It's not a simple easily drawn out thing and you should know this.
I went through it all in as much detail as I thought would be suffice for you to understand, and then you tell me to take a breeze-block to a swimming pool and see how heavy it is under water.  It would be EASIER, to pick up because it is no longer as heavy.  I cannot actually believe you honestly think things under water are actually heavier.
Ok. Go to a knee high pool with a man hold cover on a chain. Firstly, pick up the man hold cover up to your knee height, on dry land, against the atmosphere.
Now drop it in the pool and do the same thing and tell me which is easier.
Think about it.
My girlfriend can lift me off the swimming pool floor when I am standing in 4 foot of water with ease.  She struggles to do this on land because water buoyancy is greater than air buoyancy.

I've never come across such a deluded individual.
You're full of air for crying out loud, she's bound to. Are you serious here?
Even a young child can verify that objects are lighter underwater.  I remember diving for bricks at swimming classes when I was about 6 years old and realising that the black blocks we used were easier to pick up under water than on the ground.

Are you actually serious?
The black blocks were made of rubber.
And you're asking me if I'm serious. ::)

You're unreal.

The manhole would be easier to lift in water - 100%.  This isn't even debatable.  Forget the how and why, it's simply a fact that things are easier to lift underwater. 

Actually I think the blocks were simply paint coated iron blocks.

You really do live in a world of your own.

As for having a text book jammed against my face - I've told you about real life scenarios I have been involved in but you see all that as BS as well.  You do not care what I have to offer you that indicates the contrary to your absurd theory.

You're effectively putting your fingers in your ears and going 'lalalalala'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy

Everything in that article applies to air as well.


*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30059
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #440 on: October 20, 2013, 07:41:24 AM »
I'll say one thing. Gravity has to rank up there with the best cons in known history. It's clever. If you can't explain something or it doesn't fit in, simply add another ingredient, which changes everything, regardless of knowing how and why it works or what the real ingredient is.

Gravity is one of the greatest scientific mysteries there is. Figuring it out is a huge scientific problem that the entire world is trying to understand. If you think the cause is pressure then go for it. Try and prove your hypothesis correct.
Greatest scientific mystery? No, it's not. It's only a mystery as to how people actually swallowed the crap in the first place when atmospheric pressure perfectly explains it.

We keep showing you contradictions and you offer nothing but pseudo-explanations. It fails at explaining anything. If you think it does then you need to refine your explanations. As it currently stands it does nothing but beg to be dismissed.
My explanations are perfectly fine. I can't help if if you refuse to see the truth.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30059
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #441 on: October 20, 2013, 07:43:21 AM »
I'll say one thing. Gravity has to rank up there with the best cons in known history. It's clever. If you can't explain something or it doesn't fit in, simply add another ingredient, which changes everything, regardless of knowing how and why it works or what the real ingredient is.

Gravity is one of the greatest scientific mysteries there is. Figuring it out is a huge scientific problem that the entire world is trying to understand. If you think the cause is pressure then go for it. Try and prove your hypothesis correct.
Greatest scientific mystery? No, it's not. It's only a mystery as to how people actually swallowed the crap in the first place when atmospheric pressure perfectly explains it.
It only explains it if you ignore everything that these people are saying to you.
Why should I follow something that is clearly wrong. It makes no sense. The ones ignoring the truth are the ones hanging on to gravity.

Re: Check this out!
« Reply #442 on: October 20, 2013, 07:48:37 AM »

#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Ship floating on nothing! :: Physikshow Uni Bonn

What is your point?  The gas inside the chamber is clearly a very heavy dense one like SF6 or elemental Xenon.

Scepti's belief is that pressure holds things down, what exactly is yours? - because it clearly isn't the same as his.

Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #443 on: October 20, 2013, 08:40:17 AM »
Rab,
Do you not understand what pressure is?  There is less pressure on top of the aluminum boat than there is under it in the more dense gas.  It just proves Scepti's example of gasses stack up on top of each other all the way to the dome, depending on density.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 08:43:52 AM by EarthIsASpaceship »

*

th3rm0m3t3r0

  • At least 3 words, please.
  • 4696
  • It's SCIENCE!
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #444 on: October 20, 2013, 09:38:56 AM »



space-time is a theory? It is simply a 4 dimensional representation of 2 things. The 3 dimensions of space plus the dimension of time. This is hardly a disputable concept.



The key word here being concept.
I hate to sound like an FE'er, but use your head, man.

Oh you definitely sound like one right now. Let me ask you. Do you believe in space and that that space consists of three dimensions?

Now, do you believe that you can describe events using a 4th dimension of time?

Do you think that if I talk to you about an event in history at a particular time I would use the time when it happened and the location that it happened?

This is not a revolutionary idea. It is location + time.
So location + time + mass = gravity.
That explains a lot.

I didn't say that. I didn't even get into how general relativity explains how the mechanisms of gravity work. Spacetime is a concept that you have to grasp before you can begin to understand though. The thing is that most people think its some enormously complex concept but it isn't.
Did I ever once say it was?
I'm not trying to debate space-time as a concept.
I'm simply trying to enlighten you to the fact that it is indeed only a concept.
You seem to know that already.
What are you trying to argue right now?

You are the one that inferred that I said that the concept of spacetime alone explains gravity. That's all I mentioned in my last concept and I didn't bother to connect any more dots in this thread. GR as an explanation for gravity is more than just a concept. It just so happens to be the best theory for predicting the motions of the cosmos ever known to man. Without it we couldn't even explain how bodies in our own solar system behave let alone anything beyond it. It is a solid theory because it is the best theory. Not because its some trick.
It's a very large part of it.
I never said it was some trick.
I don't know why you're trying to put words in my mouth.


I don't profess to be correct.
Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

*

th3rm0m3t3r0

  • At least 3 words, please.
  • 4696
  • It's SCIENCE!
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #445 on: October 20, 2013, 09:44:28 AM »
Tesla on Relativity         
          

Tesla was highly critical of Eintein's Relativity

"...Supposing that the bodies act upon the surrounding space causing curving of the same, it appears to my simple mind that the curved spaces must react on the bodies, and producing the opposite effects, straightening out the curves. Since action and reaction are coexistent, it follows that the supposed curvature of space is entirely impossible - But even if it existed it would not explain the motions of the bodies, as observed."

He also claimed that the theory pre-dated Einstein

"...the relativity theory, by the way, is much older than its present proponents. It was advanced over 200 years ago by my illustrious countryman Boskovic, the great philospher, who, not withstanding other and multifold obligations, wrote a thousand volumes of excellent literature on a vast variety of subjects. Boskovic dealt with relativity, including the so-called time-space continuum..."

And if you think the above is strong

"...magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king ... its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists, not scientists..." New York Times, July 11, 1935, p23, c8


I don't profess to be correct.
Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #446 on: October 20, 2013, 09:51:20 AM »
But even if it existed it would not explain the motions of the bodies, as observed."

It doesn't matter if it seems impossible by thinking about it. That's the type of thing scepti does. There is empirical evidence that suggests it is there and it does explain the motions of bodies as observed, with precision.

Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #447 on: October 20, 2013, 10:02:15 AM »
Rab,
Do you not understand what pressure is?  There is less pressure on top of the aluminum boat than there is under it in the more dense gas.  It just proves Scepti's example of gasses stack up on top of each other all the way to the dome, depending on density.

Incorrect.  The aluminium boat is filled with air, which is much less dense than the gas the foil is sitting on, so the boat is buoyant.  This is exactly why we can float boats that weigh thousands of tonnes on water - the volume of air they carry within them.  If they were to fill the boat with the gas below it then it would sink - which they actually did in the video!  How am I supposed to take you seriously?

Also can you be any more condescending?  I hold a 1st class masters degree in chemistry and soon I'll also hold a PhD in the same field so I know what I'm talking about, especially in comparison to you.  Yet, you question me about pressure?

You are so, so incredibly ignorant.

Look, I'll leave you both to your madness.

Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #448 on: October 20, 2013, 10:25:57 AM »
Can you open a car door easier against air or submerged in water?
Think about it. It's all about pressure.

Indeed.  The density and weight of the water outside vs the density weight of the air inside.

Think about it.


Go to a knee high pool with a man hole cover on a chain. Firstly, pick up the man hole cover up to your knee height, on dry land, against the atmosphere.
Now drop it in the pool and do the same thing and tell me which is easier.
Think about it.

Hmm, a flat object sitting flat on the bottom.  Think about it.  Surely you realized something than is not aerodynamic in air, will also result in more resistance in water, especially in that first moment of lift as the water first has to flow back in underneath it.  Of course you realized this.  That's why you picked a manhole cover. 

Let's set in on a couple bricks or something, and then slowly lift it, or simply hold it in place in the water.  Better yet, let's use something that isn't flat.

Think about it.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30059
Re: Can anyone answer this question.
« Reply #449 on: October 20, 2013, 10:32:50 AM »
Can you open a car door easier against air or submerged in water?
Think about it. It's all about pressure.

Indeed.  The density and weight of the water outside vs the density weight of the air inside.

Think about it.


Go to a knee high pool with a man hole cover on a chain. Firstly, pick up the man hole cover up to your knee height, on dry land, against the atmosphere.
Now drop it in the pool and do the same thing and tell me which is easier.
Think about it.

Hmm, a flat object sitting flat on the bottom.  Think about it.  Surely you realized something than is not aerodynamic in air, will also result in more resistance in water, especially in that first moment of lift as the water first has to flow back in underneath it.  Of course you realized this.  That's why you picked a manhole cover. 

Let's set in on a couple bricks or something, and then slowly lift it, or simply hold it in place in the water.  Better yet, let's use something that isn't flat.

Think about it.
I didn't mention air inside the car. Think about it.
What difference is bricks under a man hole cover. We are talking about the perception of something being heavier. Think about it.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 11:31:52 AM by sceptimatic »