What proof would fe-ers accept as evidence of a spherical earth

I still don't see how you (tappet) can possibly think that a 2-4ft swell can possibly hide a 50ft ship from and observer standing 20ft above the water... It defies logic!

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 07, 2013, 03:57:59 AM

Quote from: tappet on November 06, 2013, 11:51:24 PM

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I missed that day at school when they did science but I am getting a grasp on it now. But I am still unsure about something and that is do I -

A- Look at all of the variables and omit the ones that don't fit the desired outcome.
B-Don't look for variables and just use the most common scenario.
C-Don't bother checking anything out for real and just draw some cartoons.

I do not deny sinking ships but to only use one variable and make such an incredible claim that sinking ship proves round earth is  a little misleading.

If you live near the coast you can see that under any condition the ships will appear to 'sink'. The swelling is not an issue. I have also demonstrated this with a diagram. What part of that doesn't make sense to you?

I will tell you what does not make sense. I live on the coast and have never seen a ship sinking when it is flat and glassy with zero swell so apparently you have. If you have could you please provide some evidence.
Oh, and no cartoons thanks lets stick to reality.

Well, apparently you can't see the difference between a cartoon and a diagram. I showed you with help of the diagram that the swelling is not an issue. If you live near the coast, you are more able to shoot videos of a flat glassy sea with ships sailing towards the horizon. I would be more than happy to receive the evidence from your side, as I have demonstrated that the swelling (or no swelling) should not be an issue.

Which by the way you have not refuted, all you have requested is video evidence. Telling what is wrong with the diagram would be a start, but then again...I would also be very happy to receive the evidence from your side.

If you live near the coast you can see that under any condition the ships will appear to 'sink'. The swelling is not an issue. I have also demonstrated this with a diagram. What part of that doesn't make sense to you?

The part where I go to a beach, and see the ships still on the horizon. The further they are, the more the invisible deflective mist layer caused by sea foam, of tiny water droplets floating above the sea surface, reflecting sunlight everyother which way possible, blocking direct light from hitting the lower side of the ship, and reaching you back.

You are aware of the basic properties of water, ja? The lower side of the ship doesn't "sink" after it drifts apart, it gains more water drops that are diffuzed because of sea movement and waves to fly in the space between you and the ship. That fine cloud of droplets similar to the water sprinkles that create rainbows if you see them from a right angle, reflects it's surroundings to your eyes.

And most of it's surroundings is water, because the cloud begins at the beach and ends all the way until it reaches the ship. All that fine floating water layer of mist above the actual liquid water is reflecting the water under it to your eyes. You know water is reflective right?

This experiment can be done at a waterfall, to see how agitated water surfaces form a layer of reflective water droplets that reflect light from around them to great distances. That cloud of water will obscure the ship's lower visible side from you if you're far away enough, to only show you the light from around it. That is captured from the sea surface. So the sea surface between you and the ship is reflected back to you eyes, by the water droplets floating above an agitated sea.

This effect of sea surface reflection occurs less in calm water surfaces. Easy to verify for all with a mind.

The same effect is seen in water vapors on hot asphalt, in warm days, or even above a regular fire or heater in a cooler day. The vapors on the road reflect the sky above them, to make you see the road is "turned to sky", or is a giant mass of water. This Fae Morrigan effect also exists in the desert, to fool you into "seeing" water. Only to find it was a reflection of the sky in water drops / vapor.

Those same water drops that reflect the actual sea under them, to you, obscuring your partial view of the ship, like a "hill of water" that is on top of the flat sea surface.

Thanks for explaining how I see what I am seeing. The round earther keeps trying to tell me I am not seeing what I see.

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 07, 2013, 03:57:59 AM

If you live near the coast you can see that under any condition the ships will appear to 'sink'. The swelling is not an issue. I have also demonstrated this with a diagram. What part of that doesn't make sense to you?

The part where I go to a beach, and see the ships still on the horizon. The further they are, the more the invisible deflective mist layer caused by sea foam, of tiny water droplets floating above the sea surface, reflecting sunlight everyother which way possible, blocking direct light from hitting the lower side of the ship, and reaching you back.

You are aware of the basic properties of water, ja? The lower side of the ship doesn't "sink" after it drifts apart, it gains more water drops that are diffuzed because of sea movement and waves to fly in the space between you and the ship. That fine cloud of droplets similar to the water sprinkles that create rainbows if you see them from a right angle, reflects it's surroundings to your eyes.

And most of it's surroundings is water, because the cloud begins at the beach and ends all the way until it reaches the ship. All that fine floating water layer of mist above the actual liquid water is reflecting the water under it to your eyes. You know water is reflective right?

This experiment can be done at a waterfall, to see how agitated water surfaces form a layer of reflective water droplets that reflect light from around them to great distances. That cloud of water will obscure the ship's lower visible side from you if you're far away enough, to only show you the light from around it. That is captured from the sea surface. So the sea surface between you and the ship is reflected back to you eyes, by the water droplets floating above an agitated sea.

This effect of sea surface reflection occurs less in calm water surfaces. Easy to verify for all with a mind.

The same effect is seen in water vapors on hot asphalt, in warm days, or even above a regular fire or heater in a cooler day. The vapors on the road reflect the sky above them, to make you see the road is "turned to sky", or is a giant mass of water. This Fae Morrigan effect also exists in the desert, to fool you into "seeing" water. Only to find it was a reflection of the sky in water drops / vapor.

Those same water drops that reflect the actual sea under them, to you, obscuring your partial view of the ship, like a "hill of water" that is on top of the flat sea surface.

Show me with a diagram how this is supposed to work. If I try to explain it to you, you will not believe what I am saying, so show me a diagram in which you explain it. You'll find out you cannot account for the 'sinking' effect on a flat earth the way you describe.

Quote from: Silverdane on November 07, 2013, 08:55:42 PM

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 07, 2013, 03:57:59 AM

If you live near the coast you can see that under any condition the ships will appear to 'sink'. The swelling is not an issue. I have also demonstrated this with a diagram. What part of that doesn't make sense to you?

The part where I go to a beach, and see the ships still on the horizon. The further they are, the more the invisible deflective mist layer caused by sea foam, of tiny water droplets floating above the sea surface, reflecting sunlight everyother which way possible, blocking direct light from hitting the lower side of the ship, and reaching you back.

You are aware of the basic properties of water, ja? The lower side of the ship doesn't "sink" after it drifts apart, it gains more water drops that are diffuzed because of sea movement and waves to fly in the space between you and the ship. That fine cloud of droplets similar to the water sprinkles that create rainbows if you see them from a right angle, reflects it's surroundings to your eyes.

And most of it's surroundings is water, because the cloud begins at the beach and ends all the way until it reaches the ship. All that fine floating water layer of mist above the actual liquid water is reflecting the water under it to your eyes. You know water is reflective right?

This experiment can be done at a waterfall, to see how agitated water surfaces form a layer of reflective water droplets that reflect light from around them to great distances. That cloud of water will obscure the ship's lower visible side from you if you're far away enough, to only show you the light from around it. That is captured from the sea surface. So the sea surface between you and the ship is reflected back to you eyes, by the water droplets floating above an agitated sea.

This effect of sea surface reflection occurs less in calm water surfaces. Easy to verify for all with a mind.

The same effect is seen in water vapors on hot asphalt, in warm days, or even above a regular fire or heater in a cooler day. The vapors on the road reflect the sky above them, to make you see the road is "turned to sky", or is a giant mass of water. This Fae Morrigan effect also exists in the desert, to fool you into "seeing" water. Only to find it was a reflection of the sky in water drops / vapor.

Those same water drops that reflect the actual sea under them, to you, obscuring your partial view of the ship, like a "hill of water" that is on top of the flat sea surface.

Show me with a diagram how this is supposed to work. If I try to explain it to you, you will not believe what I am saying, so show me a diagram in which you explain it. You'll find out you cannot account for the 'sinking' effect on a flat earth the way you describe.

I think he's just explained it perfectly well.

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 08, 2013, 05:37:42 AM

Quote from: Silverdane on November 07, 2013, 08:55:42 PM

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 07, 2013, 03:57:59 AM

If you live near the coast you can see that under any condition the ships will appear to 'sink'. The swelling is not an issue. I have also demonstrated this with a diagram. What part of that doesn't make sense to you?

The part where I go to a beach, and see the ships still on the horizon. The further they are, the more the invisible deflective mist layer caused by sea foam, of tiny water droplets floating above the sea surface, reflecting sunlight everyother which way possible, blocking direct light from hitting the lower side of the ship, and reaching you back.

You are aware of the basic properties of water, ja? The lower side of the ship doesn't "sink" after it drifts apart, it gains more water drops that are diffuzed because of sea movement and waves to fly in the space between you and the ship. That fine cloud of droplets similar to the water sprinkles that create rainbows if you see them from a right angle, reflects it's surroundings to your eyes.

And most of it's surroundings is water, because the cloud begins at the beach and ends all the way until it reaches the ship. All that fine floating water layer of mist above the actual liquid water is reflecting the water under it to your eyes. You know water is reflective right?

This experiment can be done at a waterfall, to see how agitated water surfaces form a layer of reflective water droplets that reflect light from around them to great distances. That cloud of water will obscure the ship's lower visible side from you if you're far away enough, to only show you the light from around it. That is captured from the sea surface. So the sea surface between you and the ship is reflected back to you eyes, by the water droplets floating above an agitated sea.

This effect of sea surface reflection occurs less in calm water surfaces. Easy to verify for all with a mind.

The same effect is seen in water vapors on hot asphalt, in warm days, or even above a regular fire or heater in a cooler day. The vapors on the road reflect the sky above them, to make you see the road is "turned to sky", or is a giant mass of water. This Fae Morrigan effect also exists in the desert, to fool you into "seeing" water. Only to find it was a reflection of the sky in water drops / vapor.

Those same water drops that reflect the actual sea under them, to you, obscuring your partial view of the ship, like a "hill of water" that is on top of the flat sea surface.

Show me with a diagram how this is supposed to work. If I try to explain it to you, you will not believe what I am saying, so show me a diagram in which you explain it. You'll find out you cannot account for the 'sinking' effect on a flat earth the way you describe.

I think he's just explained it perfectly well.

No, since there is no water vapor, like you have with a waterfall...and even if there is, the ship would not disappear bottom-up, but fade away over distance. Whenever you watch ships sail, you can clearly see them disappear bottom-up. Which again, can also not be explained by the swells, because ships ride the swells. So at the moment they're not visible, the ship is at the lowest of the swell, but as the ship is sailing it rides back up on the swell so it should be fully visible again. Just like in the video I posted, just like the diagram I have shown.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 08, 2013, 05:48:34 AM

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 08, 2013, 05:37:42 AM

Quote from: Silverdane on November 07, 2013, 08:55:42 PM

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 07, 2013, 03:57:59 AM

If you live near the coast you can see that under any condition the ships will appear to 'sink'. The swelling is not an issue. I have also demonstrated this with a diagram. What part of that doesn't make sense to you?

The part where I go to a beach, and see the ships still on the horizon. The further they are, the more the invisible deflective mist layer caused by sea foam, of tiny water droplets floating above the sea surface, reflecting sunlight everyother which way possible, blocking direct light from hitting the lower side of the ship, and reaching you back.

You are aware of the basic properties of water, ja? The lower side of the ship doesn't "sink" after it drifts apart, it gains more water drops that are diffuzed because of sea movement and waves to fly in the space between you and the ship. That fine cloud of droplets similar to the water sprinkles that create rainbows if you see them from a right angle, reflects it's surroundings to your eyes.

And most of it's surroundings is water, because the cloud begins at the beach and ends all the way until it reaches the ship. All that fine floating water layer of mist above the actual liquid water is reflecting the water under it to your eyes. You know water is reflective right?

This experiment can be done at a waterfall, to see how agitated water surfaces form a layer of reflective water droplets that reflect light from around them to great distances. That cloud of water will obscure the ship's lower visible side from you if you're far away enough, to only show you the light from around it. That is captured from the sea surface. So the sea surface between you and the ship is reflected back to you eyes, by the water droplets floating above an agitated sea.

This effect of sea surface reflection occurs less in calm water surfaces. Easy to verify for all with a mind.

The same effect is seen in water vapors on hot asphalt, in warm days, or even above a regular fire or heater in a cooler day. The vapors on the road reflect the sky above them, to make you see the road is "turned to sky", or is a giant mass of water. This Fae Morrigan effect also exists in the desert, to fool you into "seeing" water. Only to find it was a reflection of the sky in water drops / vapor.

Those same water drops that reflect the actual sea under them, to you, obscuring your partial view of the ship, like a "hill of water" that is on top of the flat sea surface.

Show me with a diagram how this is supposed to work. If I try to explain it to you, you will not believe what I am saying, so show me a diagram in which you explain it. You'll find out you cannot account for the 'sinking' effect on a flat earth the way you describe.

I think he's just explained it perfectly well.

No, since there is no water vapor, like you have with a waterfall...and even if there is, the ship would not disappear bottom-up, but fade away over distance. Whenever you watch ships sail, you can clearly see them disappear bottom-up. Which again, can also not be explained by the swells, because ships ride the swells. So at the moment they're not visible, the ship is at the lowest of the swell, but as the ship is sailing it rides back up on the swell so it should be fully visible again. Just like in the video I posted, just like the diagram I have shown.

Your eyes see an object, for instance: like a ship and its mast.

As that object moves away, the air density becomes thicker and thicker, meaning you are losing light to your eyes slightly, each time that ship moves away.
The air is denser at the hull than it is at the mast. Marginally, I might add, but that's all that's needed, because you are going to lose the light on the bottom first, at all times with distance.

To get an insight into this...go and look at a ship close up and see it's colouring and then watch it sail away from you and you will notice that as it gets further away, it's colouring becomes more hazy and darker, because your eyes are losing it's light because of a horizontal build up of layer after layer of sea level atmosphere.

It stands to reason that you will lose the hull first and the mast, last, because the mast his at a higher elevation...and anything at a higher elevation will lose it's light LAST.

Your eyes see an object, for instance: like a ship and its mast.

As that object moves away, the air density becomes thicker and thicker, meaning you are losing light to your eyes slightly, each time that ship moves away.
The air is denser at the hull than it is at the mast. Marginally, I might add, but that's all that's needed, because you are going to lose the light on the bottom first, at all times with distance.

To get an insight into this...go and look at a ship close up and see it's colouring and then watch it sail away from you and you will notice that as it gets further away, it's colouring becomes more hazy and darker, because your eyes are losing it's light because of a horizontal build up of layer after layer of sea level atmosphere.

It stands to reason that you will lose the hull first and the mast, last, because the mast his at a higher elevation...and anything at a higher elevation will lose it's light LAST.

Sceptimatic. Think about it again. You explained that the lower section of the ship is in slightly denser air, so it will fade away first. But that doesn't explain why the top section of the ship would be down at the horizon. It should appear floating in that case.

This is what you would then expect to see...




But you don't...you see it like this. Which by the way is the original photo.
The lower section of the ship is below the horizon. Also note that there is a hard line between the horizon and the sky, it is not a fade...

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 08, 2013, 08:01:48 AM

Your eyes see an object, for instance: like a ship and its mast.

As that object moves away, the air density becomes thicker and thicker, meaning you are losing light to your eyes slightly, each time that ship moves away.
The air is denser at the hull than it is at the mast. Marginally, I might add, but that's all that's needed, because you are going to lose the light on the bottom first, at all times with distance.

To get an insight into this...go and look at a ship close up and see it's colouring and then watch it sail away from you and you will notice that as it gets further away, it's colouring becomes more hazy and darker, because your eyes are losing it's light because of a horizontal build up of layer after layer of sea level atmosphere.

It stands to reason that you will lose the hull first and the mast, last, because the mast his at a higher elevation...and anything at a higher elevation will lose it's light LAST.

Sceptimatic. Think about it again. You explained that the lower section of the ship is in slightly denser air, so it will fade away first. But that doesn't explain why the top section of the ship would be down at the horizon. It should appear floating in that case.

Sometimes they can appear to float. It depends on the temperatures of the time, especially in water.
You also have to take into account the reflection of the water, too.

This is what you would then expect to see...




But you don't...you see it like this. Which by the way is the original photo.
The lower section of the ship is below the horizon. Also note that there is a hard line between the horizon and the sky, it is not a fade...

It looks totally fake to me.
Even the sea does not look natural.

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 08, 2013, 08:09:55 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 08, 2013, 08:01:48 AM

Your eyes see an object, for instance: like a ship and its mast.

As that object moves away, the air density becomes thicker and thicker, meaning you are losing light to your eyes slightly, each time that ship moves away.
The air is denser at the hull than it is at the mast. Marginally, I might add, but that's all that's needed, because you are going to lose the light on the bottom first, at all times with distance.

To get an insight into this...go and look at a ship close up and see it's colouring and then watch it sail away from you and you will notice that as it gets further away, it's colouring becomes more hazy and darker, because your eyes are losing it's light because of a horizontal build up of layer after layer of sea level atmosphere.

It stands to reason that you will lose the hull first and the mast, last, because the mast his at a higher elevation...and anything at a higher elevation will lose it's light LAST.

Sceptimatic. Think about it again. You explained that the lower section of the ship is in slightly denser air, so it will fade away first. But that doesn't explain why the top section of the ship would be down at the horizon. It should appear floating in that case.

Sometimes they can appear to float. It depends on the temperatures of the time, especially in water.
You also have to take into account the reflection of the water, too.

Reflection would cause it to reflect in the surface of the water.

You can see the top reflecting in the air layer, which makes it look like it is floating above the water.

If you make diagrams, you will see you can never account for the sinking effect.

And about the photo, it is a real photo. If you dispute it, go out and go have a look for yourself.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 08, 2013, 08:20:02 AM

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 08, 2013, 08:09:55 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 08, 2013, 08:01:48 AM

Your eyes see an object, for instance: like a ship and its mast.

As that object moves away, the air density becomes thicker and thicker, meaning you are losing light to your eyes slightly, each time that ship moves away.
The air is denser at the hull than it is at the mast. Marginally, I might add, but that's all that's needed, because you are going to lose the light on the bottom first, at all times with distance.

To get an insight into this...go and look at a ship close up and see it's colouring and then watch it sail away from you and you will notice that as it gets further away, it's colouring becomes more hazy and darker, because your eyes are losing it's light because of a horizontal build up of layer after layer of sea level atmosphere.

It stands to reason that you will lose the hull first and the mast, last, because the mast his at a higher elevation...and anything at a higher elevation will lose it's light LAST.

Sceptimatic. Think about it again. You explained that the lower section of the ship is in slightly denser air, so it will fade away first. But that doesn't explain why the top section of the ship would be down at the horizon. It should appear floating in that case.

Sometimes they can appear to float. It depends on the temperatures of the time, especially in water.
You also have to take into account the reflection of the water, too.

Reflection would cause it to reflect in the surface of the water.

You can see the top reflecting in the air layer, which makes it look like it is floating above the water.

If you make diagrams, you will see you can never account for the sinking effect.

And about the photo, it is a real photo. If you dispute it, go out and go have a look for yourself.

You can actually see the agitated effect of the atmosphere, this creates a mirage, because it's reflecting.
Like I said, the atmosphere of the flat earth can play many tricks and this is just one of them.

You can actually see the agitated effect of the atmosphere, this creates a mirage, because it's reflecting.
Like I said, the atmosphere of the flat earth can play many tricks and this is just one of them.

As you see it is mirroring the top part and it is floating above the horizon. It still does not account for the sinking effect.
Please make a diagram that shows how this is supposed to work.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 08, 2013, 09:04:57 AM

You can actually see the agitated effect of the atmosphere, this creates a mirage, because it's reflecting.
Like I said, the atmosphere of the flat earth can play many tricks and this is just one of them.

As you see it is mirroring the top part and it is floating above the horizon. It still does not account for the sinking effect.
Please make a diagram that shows how this is supposed to work.

Make a diagram of how what's supposed to work?

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 08, 2013, 09:54:24 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 08, 2013, 09:04:57 AM

You can actually see the agitated effect of the atmosphere, this creates a mirage, because it's reflecting.
Like I said, the atmosphere of the flat earth can play many tricks and this is just one of them.

As you see it is mirroring the top part and it is floating above the horizon. It still does not account for the sinking effect.
Please make a diagram that shows how this is supposed to work.

Make a diagram of how what's supposed to work?

Of how a ship can appear to sink on a flat earth.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 08, 2013, 10:01:07 AM

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 08, 2013, 09:54:24 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 08, 2013, 09:04:57 AM

You can actually see the agitated effect of the atmosphere, this creates a mirage, because it's reflecting.
Like I said, the atmosphere of the flat earth can play many tricks and this is just one of them.

As you see it is mirroring the top part and it is floating above the horizon. It still does not account for the sinking effect.
Please make a diagram that shows how this is supposed to work.

Make a diagram of how what's supposed to work?

Of how a ship can appear to sink on a flat earth.

I will do you one later on.

This is what you would then expect to see...




But you don't...you see it like this. Which by the way is the original photo.
The lower section of the ship is below the horizon. Also note that there is a hard line between the horizon and the sky, it is not a fade...

When I see sinking ships on the horizon  there is always swell the ships are as big and close as your picture and you can see them with the naked eye, no magnification is needed.
When sea's are flat glassy without swell ships are a shapeless dot on top of the horizon which you then need to zoom in with magnification.
Silverdane gave me an explanation which explains how I see what I see.
At no stage have you explained to me how I see what I see all you are saying is that I am wrong and my eyes are not working correctly. All you are trying to do is tell me something occurs when it does not. You are trying to tell me how a ship  would sink on flat glassy sea with no swell, I have never seen this neither have you and I am calling bullshit here.

When I see sinking ships on the horizon  there is always swell the ships are as big and close as your picture and you can see them with the naked eye, no magnification is needed.
When sea's are flat glassy without swell ships are a shapeless dot on top of the horizon which you then need to zoom in with magnification.
Silverdane gave me an explanation which explains how I see what I see.
At no stage have you explained to me how I see what I see all you are saying is that I am wrong and my eyes are not working correctly. All you are trying to do is tell me something occurs when it does not. You are trying to tell me how a ship  would sink on flat glassy sea with no swell, I have never seen this neither have you and I am calling bullshit here.

The swelling is a factor how close to shore the ship appears to sink, but the sinking effect is still caused by the curvature.

Check out my diagram, which speaks for itself.

Your drawings do not take perspective into account. 

Your drawings do not take perspective into account.

Perspective can be overcome by binoculars or telescope. Furthermore on a flat earth, the ships would fade away in the thickness of the atmoshpere and that still does not explain ships disappearing bottom-up.

No, perspective makes thing in background appear to be smaller than things in the foreground, regardless of whether optic are used.

No, perspective makes thing in background appear to be smaller than things in the foreground, regardless of whether optic are used.

Binoculars/telescopes are known to magnify the objects, so you are able to see things far away in detail. Or do you even dispute that?

Anyway, perspective still does not account for bottom-up disappearances.

Quote from: jroa on November 08, 2013, 03:13:54 PM

No, perspective makes thing in background appear to be smaller than things in the foreground, regardless of whether optic are used.

Binoculars/telescopes are known to magnify the objects, so you are able to see things far away in detail. Or do you even dispute that?

Anyway, perspective still does not account for bottom-up disappearances.

Yes, but smaller things in the foreground are also magnified with optics. 

Smaller swells that are closer to you can cover part or all of a ship that is very far.  The ship appears small because of perspective.

Do you really not understand this, or are you just screwing with me?

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 08, 2013, 04:08:24 PM

Quote from: jroa on November 08, 2013, 03:13:54 PM

No, perspective makes thing in background appear to be smaller than things in the foreground, regardless of whether optic are used.

Binoculars/telescopes are known to magnify the objects, so you are able to see things far away in detail. Or do you even dispute that?

Anyway, perspective still does not account for bottom-up disappearances.

Yes, but smaller things in the foreground are also magnified with optics. 

Smaller swells that are closer to you can cover part or all of a ship that is very far.  The ship appears small because of perspective.

Do you really not understand this, or are you just screwing with me?

Are you serious??!! How can even a 10ft swell (now that's a BIG swell!) hide a 50ft ship from an observer 20ft above the water on a flat earth??!! An observer in this position can see over the peaks of the swell (on a flat earth), so even when the ship is in a trough, this observer would be able to see more than 40ft worth of the ship (on a flat earth), and it would NEVER disappear from sight (on a flat earth) in the way observed in the earlier video of the tall ship going over the horizon (clearly not on a flat earth).

I thought you guys professed to work from logic and evidence? You're not doing a very good job of it in this case...

I think we all agree that objects become smaller with increased distance due to perspective. 

The problem with 'sinking' due to perspective, is that the height of the object has to shrink far more, and faster, than the width.  This acceleration would also only occur pretty much at the waterline.

Quote from: jroa on November 08, 2013, 04:36:38 PM

Quote from: Don Quichotte on November 08, 2013, 04:08:24 PM

Quote from: jroa on November 08, 2013, 03:13:54 PM

No, perspective makes thing in background appear to be smaller than things in the foreground, regardless of whether optic are used.

Binoculars/telescopes are known to magnify the objects, so you are able to see things far away in detail. Or do you even dispute that?

Anyway, perspective still does not account for bottom-up disappearances.

Yes, but smaller things in the foreground are also magnified with optics. 

Smaller swells that are closer to you can cover part or all of a ship that is very far.  The ship appears small because of perspective.

Do you really not understand this, or are you just screwing with me?

Are you serious??!! How can even a 10ft swell (now that's a BIG swell!) hide a 50ft ship from an observer 20ft above the water on a flat earth??!! An observer in this position can see over the peaks of the swell (on a flat earth), so even when the ship is in a trough, this observer would be able to see more than 40ft worth of the ship (on a flat earth), and it would NEVER disappear from sight (on a flat earth) in the way observed in the earlier video of the tall ship going over the horizon (clearly not on a flat earth).

I thought you guys professed to work from logic and evidence? You're not doing a very good job of it in this case...

Imagine that there is a tall building in the horizon.  You can see most of it, but it appears small.  Now, imagine that there is a 5ft. wall right in front of you and you are observing the building over.

You with me so far?  Now, imagine walking backwards.  Would the wall not block that tall  building after you took a few steps backwards? 

Now picture the same scenario up on top of a tall building.  I don't see what the problem is here.  Small thing that are close can block farther things that are big.  It is simple perspective. 

Why would I see only part of the building if the Earth were flat and there were no obstructions between myself and the building?

Anyway, if I'm looking over a 5 foot wall, I'm guessing my height is such that my eyes are at least an inch over.

If I back up, my eyes are still higher than it, so why would it obscure the building?  5 feet of the building sure, but the whole thing?  The wall itself will also appear smaller the further back I move.

You are not taking perspective into account.  Tall things look small when they are far away.