The GOP has gone insane

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #180 on: October 09, 2013, 04:10:09 PM »
Your quote doesn't contradict me.  It was used as a bargaining chip with the House for a bill that already had much to do with healthcare when it passed the Senate, and amended budgetary items.  Perhaps a list of provisions in the reconciliation?  Wikipedia should do again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Care_and_Education_Reconciliation_Act_of_2010#Provisions

As you can see, most amendments are indeed budgetary, with the ones that aren't being indirectly related to the budget.  And if you don't like Wikipedia for this purpose, I can grab the passed copy and you can try and pull out non-budgetary items.

If you'd like to direct me to a reliable source that tells of how the ACA was actually passed by reconciliation, and that it wasn't simply used to amend the ACA closer to the bill that was in the House when it passed Senate, by all means do.  As of yet all your sources have been vague and highly biased, saying only that reconciliation is the reason Obamacare passed, not how this is the case.  Combining that with the official story and several news organizations stating rather clearly that the reconciliation occurred AFTER the bill was signed into law, I'm inclined not to believe what they're implying without good reason and more clarity of wording.

Pyrolizard, here is evidence that the original bill was passed via reconciliation. First, we bring up the  Obamacare H.R. 3590 bill on govtrack.us.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590#overview

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Introduced - Sep 17, 2009
Passed House - Oct 08, 2009
Passed Senate with Changes    - Dec 24, 2009
House Agreed to Changes - Mar 21, 2010
Signed by the President - Mar 23, 2010

Look at the dates for the key passings.

Firstly, it is alleged that the House first passed the Obamacare on October 8, 2010. This is factually incorrect. On October 8, 2010 the H.R. 3590 bill was a Military Housing Bill. Here is the PDF of the original bill with October 8,2010 clearly stamped at the top. The House was passing an entirely different bill, which was then gutted and used by the Senate as a carcass for its platform. This is wrong.

Next, lets look at the second time the House passed Obamacare. Lets search on the house.gov website for that date, Mar 21, 2010, where the "House Agreed to Changes".

http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?q=flooraction/floor-action-on-hr-4872-the-health-care-and-education-reconciliation-act

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The nation’s historic health reform legislation, commonly referred to as the Affordable Care Act, is the consolidation of H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as amended by H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act.

On March 21, 2010, the House took up H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as passed by the U.S. Senate.  The House debated and passed H.R. 3590 by a roll call vote of 219 - 212, clearing the measure for the White House.  At the same time, the House considered H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act, which amended financing and revenue provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.  The House debated and passed H.R. 4872 on March 21, 2010, by a roll call vote of 220 – 211.

We see that during this vote Obamacare was packaged with a reconciliation bill and passed under reconciliation rules.

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Lorddave

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #181 on: October 09, 2013, 04:20:10 PM »
If it's illegal, why hasn't the GOP challenged it in court?
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #182 on: October 09, 2013, 04:36:23 PM »
If it's illegal, why hasn't the GOP challenged it in court?

Maybe they have. I don't have access to the the Federal US Court Database to look the many of the legal challenges to Obamacare.

Any clear headed person can see from all of the information presented here that the passing of Obamacare was not exactly above the board. It was a law born in sin. The gutting of an existing bill and using its previous votes is unmoral and wrong. Using reconciliation to finish off a bill, an expedited process which does not require bi-partisan agreement, and is meant for revenue generating budget items, is also wrong.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 04:44:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Pyrolizard

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #183 on: October 09, 2013, 04:36:40 PM »

Pyrolizard, here is evidence that the original bill was passed via reconciliation. First, we bring up the  Obamacare H.R. 3590 bill on govtrack.us.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590#overview

Quote
Introduced - Sep 17, 2009
Passed House - Oct 08, 2009
Passed Senate with Changes    - Dec 24, 2009
House Agreed to Changes - Mar 21, 2010
Signed by the President - Mar 23, 2010

Look at the dates for the key passings.
Okay.

Firstly, it is alleged that the House first passed the Obamacare on October 8, 2010. This is factually incorrect. On October 8, 2010 the H.R. 3590 bill was a Military Housing Bill. Here is the PDF of the original bill with October 8,2010 clearly stamped at the top. The House was passing an entirely different bill, which was then gutted and used by the Senate as a carcass for its platform. This is wrong.
No, it's factually correct.  H.R. 3590 passed the House on October 8, 2009, as I presume you meant.  It was then modified and passed by Senate, with the modifications being approved by the House.  There's nothing wrong with this so far, it did indeed follow the law that any modifications must be passed by both portions of Congress.

Next, lets look at the second time the House passed Obamacare. Lets search on the house.gov website for that date, Mar 21, 2010, where the "House Agreed to Changes".

http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?q=flooraction/floor-action-on-hr-4872-the-health-care-and-education-reconciliation-act

Quote
The nation’s historic health reform legislation, commonly referred to as the Affordable Care Act, is the consolidation of H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as amended by H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act.

On March 21, 2010, the House took up H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as passed by the U.S. Senate.  The House debated and passed H.R. 3590 by a roll call vote of 219 - 212, clearing the measure for the White House.  At the same time, the House considered H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act, which amended financing and revenue provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.  The House debated and passed H.R. 4872 on March 21, 2010, by a roll call vote of 220 – 211.

We see that during this vote Obamacare was packaged with a reconciliation bill and passed under reconciliation rules.
We see that this vote relied that both pass.  As I said, it's entirely possible that everything of substance was in the reconciliation, and there is no law against this.  There is nothing explicitly prohibiting passing a law that relies heavily on future amendment, reconciliations included.

We see that it's entirely possible for both to be rejected by the House.  They didn't, and subsequent attempts at a repeal of the ACA failed.

If you'd care to research a bit more, you'd see that the reconciliation was still in Congress as of March twenty fifth where indeed two provisions were stricken by the Byrd Rule,  after which point the Senate passed the amendment to the ACA, and soon after the House passed it once again.  Three chances to reject it, and still nothing.

What we do not see is that the ACA was limited to twenty hours of debate in the Senate, or that it only required fifty one votes in the same chamber.  Indeed it took longer than that, and indeed it got the full amount of required votes.  There are no special reconciliation requirements for the House, you realize, and H.R. 3590 was not defined as a reconciliation.  Again, it couldn't be, for both reasons I've already detailed as well as the limit of one reconciliation allowed per year.


So I'm still failing to see what your problem here is, when again the means used were entirely legitimate, much like your hero Boehner.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #184 on: October 09, 2013, 05:02:05 PM »
No, it's factually correct.  H.R. 3590 passed the House on October 8, 2009, as I presume you meant.  It was then modified and passed by Senate, with the modifications being approved by the House.  There's nothing wrong with this so far, it did indeed follow the law that any modifications must be passed by both portions of Congress.

H.R. 3590 passed the House on October 8, 2009, but Obamacare didn't. Taking a Military Housing bill which was originated in the House and then "amending" it once it arrived in the Senate by replacing its entire title and content with Obamacare is PURE PORNOGRAPHY. It cannot be honestly claimed afterwards that Obamacare was originated and passed in the House, as is being done. It was an entirely different bill then.

All revenue bills must originate in the House. This is one of the tenets of the Constitution.

When the Constitution was written the Senate was to be made up of members appointed by the State Governors and approved by the Legislatures. Every member of the House of Representatives was to be elected. If the Senate generated revenue bills it would be viewed as taxation without representation, since Senators were not elected and would have tyrannical powers in levying taxes. The House, with its larger numbers, was also seen as being the better gauge of the wishes of the people for spending measures.

What Harry Reid and Obama have done is unconscionable. It bypasses the system of checks and balances and is a slap in the face to our system of government.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 05:28:52 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #185 on: October 09, 2013, 05:20:44 PM »
Taking a Military Housing bill which was originated in the House and then "amending" it once it arrives in the Senate by replacing its entire title and content with Obamacare is PURE PORNOGRAPHY.

Wait, what?

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Pyrolizard

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #186 on: October 09, 2013, 05:28:36 PM »
No, it's factually correct.  H.R. 3590 passed the House on October 8, 2009, as I presume you meant.  It was then modified and passed by Senate, with the modifications being approved by the House.  There's nothing wrong with this so far, it did indeed follow the law that any modifications must be passed by both portions of Congress.

H.R. 3590 passed the House on October 8, 2009, but Obamacare didn't. Taking a Military Housing bill which was originated in the House and then "amending" it once it arrives in the Senate by replacing its entire title and content with Obamacare is PURE PORNOGRAPHY. It cannot be honestly claimed afterwards that Obamacare was originated and passed in the House, as is being done. It was an entirely different bill then.
Obamacare did not originate in the House, the bill that includes the provisions for Obamacare did.  Again, loopholes out the ass, that's politics.

All revenue bills must originate in the House. This is one of the tenets of the Constitution.
Correct.  Did the ACA raise taxes?  No?  It's not a revenue bill.

If I'm mistaken and the answer is yes, I'm sure the technicality is the one listed above.

When the Constitution was written the Senate was to be made up of members appointed by the State Governors and approved by the Legislatures. Every member of the House of Representatives was to be elected. If the Senate generated revenue bills it would be viewed as taxation without representation, since Senators are not elected and would have tyrannical powers in levying taxes.

What Harry Reid and Obama have done is unconscionable. It bypasses the system of checks and balances and is a slap in the face to our system of government.
You make out that what Boehner is doing ISN'T unconscionable.  Again, nearly a million people, furloughed.  That's a lot of families that are having real economic issues because of the bill not being voted on.
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I dont care about the majority I care about Obama.
Let it always be known that Excelsior John is against democracy.

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Pyrolizard

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #187 on: October 09, 2013, 05:29:48 PM »
Taking a Military Housing bill which was originated in the House and then "amending" it once it arrives in the Senate by replacing its entire title and content with Obamacare is PURE PORNOGRAPHY.

Wait, what?

It seems he's saying that he loves it so much that he gets sexual pleasure from it.  Such odd things Tom admits to.
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Wherever someone is wrong on the internet, Pyrolizard will be there!

Quote from: Excelsior John
I dont care about the majority I care about Obama.
Let it always be known that Excelsior John is against democracy.

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Lorddave

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #188 on: October 09, 2013, 05:32:34 PM »
If it's illegal, why hasn't the GOP challenged it in court?

Maybe they have. I don't have access to the the Federal US Court Database to look the many of the legal challenges to Obamacare.

Any clear headed person can see from all of the information presented here that the passing of Obamacare was not exactly above the board. It was a law born in sin. The gutting of an existing bill and using its previous votes is unmoral and wrong. Using reconciliation to finish off a bill, an expedited process which does not require bi-partisan agreement, and is meant for revenue generating budget items, is also wrong.
If they have, surely the Supreme Court would have ruled by now.  And if not, how come the GOP doesn't discuss it?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #189 on: October 09, 2013, 06:05:05 PM »
If ACA were passed illegally, this would have been brought up sometime in the past 2 years.  The Republicans would never allow something so easy to pass them up in order to remove this law.
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Rama Set

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #190 on: October 09, 2013, 06:15:09 PM »
Tom knows it's not illegal which is why he is resorting to such superlatives as the Bills passing being pornographic.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #191 on: October 09, 2013, 06:47:27 PM »
If they have, surely the Supreme Court would have ruled by now.  And if not, how come the GOP doesn't discuss it?

They do discuss it. Infact, I saw that Raul Labrador attempted to bring up the shady way Obamacare was passed on a CNN interview before the topic was changed by Anderson Cooper. The subject is also brought up on other news stations from time to time.

Right now over 100 lawsuits against Obamacare have been filed, and over half of them deal with unconstitutionality. Although I do not wish to go on an easter egg hunt, here's one of them, which seeks to declare Obamacare unconstitutional based on grounds it did not originate in the House.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 07:16:07 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Lorddave

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #192 on: October 09, 2013, 07:24:39 PM »
If they have, surely the Supreme Court would have ruled by now.  And if not, how come the GOP doesn't discuss it?

They do discuss it. Infact, I saw that Raul Labrador attempted to bring up the shady way Obamacare was passed on a CNN interview before the topic was changed by Anderson Cooper. The subject is also brought up on other news stations from time to time.

Right now over 100 lawsuits against Obamacare have been filed, and over half of them deal with unconstitutionality. Although I do not wish to go on an easter egg hunt, here's one of them, which seeks to declare Obamacare unconstitutional based on grounds it did not originate in the House.
Then surely our court system will prove its legality and the house needs to simply argue its case.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #193 on: October 09, 2013, 07:37:28 PM »
Then surely our court system will prove its legality and the house needs to simply argue its case.

Except that federal judges are not exactly unbiased when they are being selected and appointed by the President and Senate.

http://www.uscourts.gov/Common/FAQS.aspx

    "Supreme Court justices, court of appeals judges, and district court judges are nominated by the President and confirmed by the United States Senate, as stated in the Constitution."

Obama has stacked the court with nearly 200 federal judges in his time as president.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 09:02:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

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rottingroom

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #194 on: October 09, 2013, 07:50:25 PM »
Then surely our court system will prove its legality and the house needs to simply argue its case.

Except that federal judges are not exactly unbiased when they are being selected and appointed by the President and Senate.

http://www.uscourts.gov/Common/FAQS.aspx

    "Supreme Court justices, court of appeals judges, and district court judges are nominated by the President and confirmed by the United States Senate, as stated in the Constitution."

Obama has stacked the court with nearly 200 federal judges.

So this is UTTER PORNOGRAPHY and if the courts don't recognize it then they must be rigged? Tom must think we are talking about NASA.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #195 on: October 09, 2013, 08:03:47 PM »
So this is UTTER PORNOGRAPHY and if the courts don't recognize it then they must be rigged? Tom must think we are talking about NASA.

The selection of judges is rigged, but the system isn't. The constitution gives exclusive power to the President and Senate to select the judges. That's one of their sources of power.

I'm simply saying that lack of legal progress is not proof that it is not unconstitutional. A large amount of liberal judges were a problem before Obama even took office. Same sex marriage are deemed lawful one day, nullified the next. As these bills go higher and higher through the court system, so do the chances of a liberal judge dismissing the case.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 08:13:11 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Rama Set

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #196 on: October 09, 2013, 08:09:00 PM »
Sorry Tom, but if a court decides that the law is constitutional, then it is legal and constitutional whether you like the judges or not.  Unless you have appeals available of course.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #197 on: October 09, 2013, 08:11:57 PM »
Sorry Tom, but if a court decides that the law is constitutional, then it is legal and constitutional whether you like the judges or not.  Unless you have appeals available of course.

These lower and mid-level judges are just siding with the government's 'motion to dismiss' and dismissing the cases. They aren't declaring anything constitutional or unconstitutional.

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Rama Set

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #198 on: October 09, 2013, 08:21:32 PM »
Well it looks like there is not a leg to stand on then.  It does not take long to see that this admittedly shitty tactics of gutting pre-existing bills happens all over 'merica.  I think that the Supreme Court ruled that the Individual Mandate was not considered taxation but a penalty and so it may not even qualify as a revenue bill based on prior rulings.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 08:25:58 PM by Rama Set »
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #200 on: October 09, 2013, 11:42:50 PM »
Could these people be any more blatantly hypocritical?

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/104-current-congressional-republicans-who-voted-increase-debt-ceiling-under-bush?akid=11025.1845889.0ixpjz&rd=1&src=newsletter907842&t=5

Except in 2004 the United States was engaged in war. Wars are meant to be temporary. A bill which forces a government take over of one sixth of the US Economy, and which imposes new and higher taxes on Americans, is not.

You might as well quote me statistics on how the House raised the debt during World War II as to make such a comparison.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 12:05:50 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Lorddave

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #201 on: October 10, 2013, 03:30:32 AM »
Could these people be any more blatantly hypocritical?

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/104-current-congressional-republicans-who-voted-increase-debt-ceiling-under-bush?akid=11025.1845889.0ixpjz&rd=1&src=newsletter907842&t=5

Except in 2004 the United States was engaged in war. Wars are meant to be temporary. A bill which forces a government take over of one sixth of the US Economy, and which imposes new and higher taxes on Americans, is not.

You might as well quote me statistics on how the House raised the debt during World War II as to make such a comparison.
Well, we've technically been at war for over 10 years soooo.....
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Rama Set

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #202 on: October 10, 2013, 04:47:15 AM »
Bush also cut taxes while he was I power. Decreasing revenue while incurring a major expense is extremely irresponsible yet the government was not shutdown over that. People also like to gloss over the economic crash that Obama dealt with.

Recession + A trillion dollars in economic stimulus=crappy deficits.

America should really consider cutting like 500B from its defense budget though. I mean really. It's retarded.
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markjo

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #203 on: October 10, 2013, 04:34:24 PM »
Well, we've technically been at war for over 10 years soooo.....
If you want to get technical, then technically, the US hasn't declared war on anyone since WWII.
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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #204 on: October 11, 2013, 06:44:48 AM »
http://www.aallnet.org/main-menu/Publications/llj/LLJ-Archives/Vol-105/no-2/2013-7.pdf

wasnt sure of the best place to put this, but here is a legislative history of the aca.  it's interesting
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --

Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --

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Lorddave

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #206 on: October 14, 2013, 07:42:39 AM »
#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">The GOP's little rule change they hoped you wouldn't notice
Saw it on facebook but never watched it.

Guess we know who wants to keep the government shutdown now eh?

I wonder if they'll rescind it once this crisis is over.  I mean, they wouldn't want the democrats to have that kind of power now would they?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #207 on: October 14, 2013, 07:58:56 AM »
Here is the resolution itself, passed with virtually no bipartisan support on Oct 1.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368

"Sec. 2. Any motion pursuant to clause 4 of rule XXII relating to House Joint Resolution 59 may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --

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Lorddave

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Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #208 on: October 14, 2013, 08:12:02 AM »
Here is the resolution itself, passed with virtually no bipartisan support on Oct 1.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368

"Sec. 2. Any motion pursuant to clause 4 of rule XXII relating to House Joint Resolution 59 may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html
Virtually?  What democrat voted for it?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: The GOP has gone insane
« Reply #209 on: October 14, 2013, 08:20:33 AM »
Here is the resolution itself, passed with virtually no bipartisan support on Oct 1.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368

"Sec. 2. Any motion pursuant to clause 4 of rule XXII relating to House Joint Resolution 59 may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html
Virtually?  What democrat voted for it?

Apparently 7 of them did, with 9 republicans voting against.  I was pretty surprised by that, too.  Not really sure what they were thinking on that one.
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --