The GOP has gone insane

Quote from: rottingroom on October 07, 2013, 08:15:40 PM

Tom, that is crazy. Unwilling to compromise on what? You can't call it a compromise when the offer by Republicans was to not shut the government down. That should have never been on the table and you know it.

Look at the link I provided above. The GOP offered to keep Obamacare, with a delay of its Individual Mandate, a controversial portion of Obamacare which forces people to pay penalties if they do not purchase insurance.

I did look at the link. You are implying that we are in this mess because Obama didn't agree to a compromise so its okay for Republicans to shut the government down. It doesn't matter if Obama would have agreed to it or not, the threat of shutting down the government is terrorism.

Its like me telling you to admit the world is round or else I'll hack the FES and destroy it.

Its like me telling you to admit the world is round or else I'll hack the FES and destroy it.

I...think it's a little more serious than that.

Oh, but then again... 

I did look at the link. You are implying that we are in this mess because Obama didn't agree to a compromise so its okay for Republicans to shut the government down. It doesn't matter if Obama would have agreed to it or not, the threat of shutting down the government is terrorism.

Its like me telling you to admit the world is round or else I'll hack the FES and destroy it.

They did not shut it down. They simply not agree to fund Obama's federal budget proposal, just like the Senate did not agree to any of the proposals put forward by the house. The shutdown was a consequence of that.

All modern presidents have had the dignity to reach across the isle to the other side and negotiate to come to a comprimise. This is the foundation of how government works. A refusal to negotiate is unpresidented. Obama and the democrats have been refusing to negoatiate long before the government shutdown.

How is delaying the mandate a year going to save money?  If it's truly about the budget and not the Tea Party's drive to remove ACA then it should be budget related right?  If anything, it would seem delaying that mandate would cost more money due to not being able to collect any penalties.

See what you've started, Orbis?

I'm sorry...  I'm really fucking sorry about this... So sour.

I don't think we should negotiate with people that think its okay to hold the country hostage. I look forward to the final dagger in the big elephants side starting in 2014.

It's not the GOP that's gone insane, it's the American Government in general. We've created a system prone to gerrymandering, and that's exactly what happened. The majority of congressmen have arranged it so that the only way they can be beaten in a congressional race is in the primary against another member of the same party. Being moderate and willing to compromise could cost them their jobs.

Quote from: rottingroom on October 07, 2013, 08:22:25 PM

I did look at the link. You are implying that we are in this mess because Obama didn't agree to a compromise so its okay for Republicans to shut the government down. It doesn't matter if Obama would have agreed to it or not, the threat of shutting down the government is terrorism.

Its like me telling you to admit the world is round or else I'll hack the FES and destroy it.

They did not shut it down. They simply not agree to fund Obama's federal budget proposal, just like the Senate did not agree to any of the proposals put forward by the house. The shutdown was a consequence of that.

All modern presidents have had the dignity to reach across the isle to the other side and negotiate to come to a comprimise. This is the foundation of how government works. A refusal to negotiate is unpresidented. Obama and the democrats have been refusing to negoatiate long before the government shutdown.

No, Tom. They didn't disagree to the budget proposal. They disagreed to the temporary measure that gets passed almost automatically in order to allow them to disagree without the government shutting down.

This isn't a situation of negotiation. This is a hostage situation. In a negotiation the GOP would have something to give. All they have is the threat of continued shutdown.

How is delaying the mandate a year going to save money?  If it's truly about the budget and not the Tea Party's drive to remove ACA then it should be budget related right?  If anything, it would seem delaying that mandate would cost more money due to not being able to collect any penalties.

The Individual mandate is extremely unpopular. The GOP offered to pass Obamacare with the Individual Mandate delayed for a year, so that Congress, both the House and Senate, could have more time to debate its virtues, perhaps changing the mandate rules or eliminate it outright.

The GOP has shown the willingness to compromise, something Obama has been unwilling to do with Obamacare and the debt ceiling. The GOP have also expressed concerns about the ACA's transformation of medicare. Obama could have easily engaged in discussions to find an amiable common ground in these subjects. Instead he has flatly refused to engage in negotiation.

I don't think we should negotiate with people that think its okay to hold the country hostage. I look forward to the final dagger in the big elephants side starting in 2014.

The GOP wasn't holding the country hostage for the last several years they've been expressing concerns about Obamacare, requesting reform and compromise solutions. They are not holding the country hostage today. They have simply voted against Obama's spending spree. The GOP wants the government open for business. They have submitted numerous government funding bills which the Senate has failed to pass.

This isn't a situation of negotiation. This is a hostage situation. In a negotiation the GOP would have something to give. All they have is the threat of continued shutdown.

I've shown that the GOP is willing to negotiate and reach compromise solutions. Obama is not willing to negotiate at all.

You are not grasping this tom. Compromise or not, the Republicans made it finally happen.

Obama can't have his only big achievement destroyed, now can he? This is as much a dick waving contest by the democrats as it is by the republicans.

Well, except that the Democrats aren't actively shutting down the government.

So to sum this up, the mandate doesn't change the budget but the republicans refuse to pass the continuing resolution without removing the mandate.  In other words, the republicans refuse to pass the budget until a non budgetary item is removed and are thus holding the nation ransom for their own agenda. If you have a problem with legislation, attack it during aa normal session, if you have a problem with a budget item, attack it with the continuing resolution sessions.  Seems pretty straight forward.  Obama and the Senate have also stated they are willing to talk about ACA, just not as part of the budget.

Mr. Boehner called a vote to end Obamacare 42 times but won't call a vote to end the government shutdown. Hmmmmm.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 10:57:51 AM

A child on the west coast wants his parents to let him go on a 2 week long school trip to Washington DC. Mom says yes, and dad says yes. Initially, it seems like a good educational experience. But over time, as the trip nears, the full details come out and when it's time to pay the bill, $3700 for plane trip, hotel, plus expenses, Dad comes to his senses and puts his foot down. The amount is too burdensome for his family to pay in their financial situation.

Why is it wrong for Dad to do this?

Because the Mom and Grandpa are okay with spending grandpa's money on the trip.

Actually the family does go and it doesn't cost them anything. 

The neighbors that work for a living get the bill and are required to cover the expenses because they have a little extra cash every payday after paying the other taxes and bills.

Damn greedy middle class people wanting to keep what little extra money they make to use on themselves for things like car payments and such.  There's FSA (free shit army) members out there that want to crank out more babies on other people's dime, and Obamacare is the answer for them.

Obama can't have his only big achievement destroyed, now can he? This is as much a dick waving contest by the democrats as it is by the republicans.

Can driving up the cost of living and taking away the freedom of choosing not to purchase something be considered an achievement?

Can driving up the cost of living and taking away the freedom of choosing not to purchase something be considered an achievement?

That was sarcasm.

You are not grasping this tom. Compromise or not, the Republicans made it finally happen.

Incorrect. The Republicans did not "shut down the government". Right before the shutdown occurred the House sent a funding bill to the Senate, who failed to fund the government with that bill, sticking to their guns. The government shut down as a result.

No one shut down the government. The government shut itself down when the two parties could not reach an amiable solution. This is what happen when one party flatly refuses to negotiate on a comprimise.

So to sum this up, the mandate doesn't change the budget but the republicans refuse to pass the continuing resolution without removing the mandate.  In other words, the republicans refuse to pass the budget until a non budgetary item is removed and are thus holding the nation ransom for their own agenda.

Obamacare is a bugetary item. It is not non-bugetary. It is funded by the federal government. A vote on the federal budget and all of its programs is a direct vote on Obamacare.

Voting NO on the president's wild irresponsible spending sprees is not "holding the nation at ransom". The GOP is willing to negotiate the matter and find a common ground where they can reach a comprimise solution. Obama is flat out refusing to reach out and have discussions with the other side on any of his bills, or the debt ceiling. What kind of president is that?

Mr. Boehner called a vote to end Obamacare 42 times but won't call a vote to end the government shutdown. Hmmmmm.

In order for a bill to be called to a vote on the floor of the House it first needs to be supported by a majority of the majority. It's called the Hastert Rule. The Senate has a similar process. The House has been submitting government funding bills to the Senate too, and they're not bringing up the House's bills for a vote over there, either.

Gridlock like this is common in government. This is why negotiation and compromise is required.

On the subject of the debt crisis, a senior White House official said today that the president would rather default than to sit down and negotiate.

That was sarcasm.

Don't worry, I know.  Just threw that out to rile up a lib or two.

On the subject of the debt crisis, a senior White House official said today that the president would rather default than to sit down and negotiate.

The same article says this and has been repeated in the media over and over again:

"Obama, who has repeatedly said he would not negotiate with Republicans until they open the government and raise the debt ceiling, also said Boehner should bring up a clean debt ceiling bill."

Obama is willing to negotiate after the government shutdown is not being used as a card in the negotiation. You need to stop twisting this, it's just common sense.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 07, 2013, 09:00:07 PM

So to sum this up, the mandate doesn't change the budget but the republicans refuse to pass the continuing resolution without removing the mandate.  In other words, the republicans refuse to pass the budget until a non budgetary item is removed and are thus holding the nation ransom for their own agenda.

Obamacare is a bugetary item. It is not non-bugetary. It is funded by the federal government. A vote on the federal budget and all of its programs is a direct vote on Obamacare.

Tom, did you happen to notice that the part of the government that is responsible for ACA enrollment is still up and running, despite the government shutdown?  Do you know why?  It's because ACA is already funded for the year, therefore this budget battle has nothing to with Obamacare.

Tom has a wild imagination.

The only reason we're in this spot is because THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH VOTES IN THE HOUSE TO DEFUND THE ACA.  So instead, the GOP is saying that if it can't defund the ACA through the normal budget process, it'll just refuse to vote for any budget at all until the Democrats 'compromise' by agreeing to defund the ACA.

Using fear, threats, and intimidation to achieve your political goals isn't good governance; it's terrorism.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 10:02:16 PM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 07, 2013, 09:00:07 PM

So to sum this up, the mandate doesn't change the budget but the republicans refuse to pass the continuing resolution without removing the mandate.  In other words, the republicans refuse to pass the budget until a non budgetary item is removed and are thus holding the nation ransom for their own agenda.

Obamacare is a bugetary item. It is not non-bugetary. It is funded by the federal government. A vote on the federal budget and all of its programs is a direct vote on Obamacare.

Tom, did you happen to notice that the part of the government that is responsible for ACA enrollment is still up and running, despite the government shutdown?  Do you know why?  It's because ACA is already funded for the year, therefore this budget battle has nothing to with Obamacare.

It has everything to do with ACA, just nothing to do budgetarily with it.

For Tom.

A Federal Budget Crisis Months in the Planning and You Know Who is Behind This: The Perverted and Decrepit Kochs

Shortly after President Obama started his second term, a loose-knit coalition of conservative activists led by former Attorney General Edwin Meese III gathered in the capital to plot strategy. Their push to repeal Mr. Obama’s health care law was going nowhere, and they desperately needed a new plan.

Out of that session, held one morning in a location the members insist on keeping secret, came a little-noticed “blueprint to defunding Obamacare,” signed by Mr. Meese and leaders of more than three dozen conservative groups.

It articulated a take-no-prisoners legislative strategy that had long percolated in conservative circles: that Republicans could derail the health care overhaul if conservative lawmakers were willing to push fellow Republicans — including their cautious leaders — into cutting off financing for the entire federal government.

“We felt very strongly at the start of this year that the House needed to use the power of the purse,” said one coalition member, Michael A. Needham, who runs Heritage Action for America, the political arm of the Heritage Foundation. “At least at Heritage Action, we felt very strongly from the start that this was a fight that we were going to pick.”

Last week the country witnessed the fallout from that strategy: a standoff that has shuttered much of the federal bureaucracy and unsettled the nation.

To many Americans, the shutdown came out of nowhere. But interviews with a wide array of conservatives show that the confrontation that precipitated the crisis was the outgrowth of a long-running effort to undo the law, the Affordable Care Act, since its passage in 2010 — waged by a galaxy of conservative groups with more money, organized tactics and interconnections than is commonly known.

With polls showing Americans deeply divided over the law, conservatives believe that the public is behind them. Although the law’s opponents say that shutting down the government was not their objective, the activists anticipated that a shutdown could occur — and worked with members of the Tea Party caucus in Congress who were excited about drawing a red line against a law they despise.

A defunding “tool kit” created in early September included talking points for the question, “What happens when you shut down the government and you are blamed for it?” The suggested answer was the one House Republicans give today: “We are simply calling to fund the entire government except for the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare.”

The billionaire Koch brothers, Charles and David, have been deeply involved with financing the overall effort. A group linked to the Kochs, Freedom Partners Chamber of Commerce, disbursed more than $200 million last year to nonprofit organizations involved in the fight. Included was $5 million to Generation Opportunity, which created a buzz last month with an Internet advertisement showing a menacing Uncle Sam figure popping up between a woman’s legs during a gynecological exam.

The groups have also sought to pressure vulnerable Republican members of Congress with scorecards keeping track of their health care votes; have burned faux “Obamacare cards” on college campuses; and have distributed scripts for phone calls to Congressional offices, sample letters to editors and Twitter and Facebook offerings for followers to present as their own.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-federal-budget-crisis-months-in-the-planning.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20131006&_r=2&

These are sick, sick, perverted, fucked-up people who should all be behind bars. Mother fuckers are slime who can only achieve what they want through devious strategies, lies. and terrorist activities. They have staged this shutdown with absolutely no regard to all of the people who have been harmed and all of the businesses that will be harmed.

"You are here because now is the single best time we have to defund Obamacare. This is a fight we can win." SENATOR TED CRUZ, speaking in August to a Heritage Action gathering in Dallas

Sedition conspiracy is against the law!

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by *force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

*"force" in this case is the refusal to fund the government for the purpose of hindering the execution of the Affordable Care Act.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384

Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 11:12:09 PM

On the subject of the debt crisis, a senior White House official said today that the president would rather default than to sit down and negotiate.

The same article says this and has been repeated in the media over and over again:

"Obama, who has repeatedly said he would not negotiate with Republicans until they open the government and raise the debt ceiling, also said Boehner should bring up a clean debt ceiling bill."

Obama is willing to negotiate after the government shutdown is not being used as a card in the negotiation. You need to stop twisting this, it's just common sense.

No. Obama had been unwilling to negotiate for a long time before the government shutdown. This is not some new event where he is rightously refusing to negotiate.

Refusing to negotiate on the federal budget until your spending spree federal budget is passed is a very idiotic platform to maintain.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 10:02:16 PM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on October 07, 2013, 09:00:07 PM

So to sum this up, the mandate doesn't change the budget but the republicans refuse to pass the continuing resolution without removing the mandate.  In other words, the republicans refuse to pass the budget until a non budgetary item is removed and are thus holding the nation ransom for their own agenda.

Obamacare is a bugetary item. It is not non-bugetary. It is funded by the federal government. A vote on the federal budget and all of its programs is a direct vote on Obamacare.

Tom, did you happen to notice that the part of the government that is responsible for ACA enrollment is still up and running, despite the government shutdown?  Do you know why?  It's because ACA is already funded for the year, therefore this budget battle has nothing to with Obamacare.

The ACA is part of the federal budget. Even if it was pre-funded with some of the government's funds, it is still part of the federal budget, as a program to maintain. Congress is voting directly on the federal budget, which has a little something to do with Obamacare. That money pre-funded for Obamacare didn't just come from a magic tree. That money came out of other areas of the government (sequester), or otherwise increased the country's debt. This is not a magic system where the government has infinite money to spend.

I wish I could find the chart again, but there was recently a graphic on one of the major news outlets that contained a breakdown of the origin of the amendments, riders, etc in the ACA text.  They found that a significant portions of the legislation in the ACA originated from GOP lawmakers.  I can't find it again, but maybe someone else can.  Found it: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/10/daily-chart-1



Obama has been compromising on the ACA since day one.  The GOP isn't asking for a compromise.  They're declaring that they refuse to pass any budget that funds the ACA.  That's not compromise, and it isn't a negotiation.

I'm amazed that so many people can be so gullible as to think that the GOP is taking some sort of moral stand.  It's laughable.

Sedition conspiracy is against the law!

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by *force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

*"force" in this case is the refusal to fund the government for the purpose of hindering the execution of the Affordable Care Act.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384

The GOP didn't shut down the government by force. It was done by both sides by refusing to sign each other's federal budget bills. The government shut down as a result.

It could equally be said that Obama is holding the government "hostage" by refusing to negotiate on the country's spending and debt issues. After all, it is Obama who is saying "My way or the highway" while John Boeher is saying that Obama is flatly refusing to engage in discussions on the country's spending or debt. We deserve a better president. This is absurd. This is not how government works. What kind of president would refuse to negotiate in the debt issues and let the country default?

If only Romney had won, amirite?