An alternative to Obamacare

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Tom Bishop

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An alternative to Obamacare
« on: October 01, 2013, 11:06:37 AM »
Why should the money I earn be taken from me and be given to people who didn't earn it? I don't see why I should be supporting people who choose in life to turn on the TV rather than open a book. I have health insurance because I was driven to educate myself and do what was necessary to get it.

The democrats seem intent robbing peter to pay paul. This is morally unjust for many reasons. They are doing it totally wrong. If these people wanted a true fix, they would go about it another way.

If a someone needs to pay for a medical condition which they cannot pay the democrats can help people in the same way they help people get college tuition they cannot pay: by starting a government-run bank and lending it to the them, not simply giving it to them. Perhaps they can call it the Obama Bank if so inclined. We've seen that the student loan system works, especially since the loans cannot be written off in bankruptcy.

Doing this would ensure that:

    - No one goes without treatment

    - No one is robbed

    - A loan is not welfare. People in recovery will pay it back or face standard penalties.

    - The government puts increased pressure on medical research (which is mostly government funded) to increase survivability rates

    - The government can give out loans in a standard 10:1 banking ratio, which has been shown to work. Every dollar that is paid back to the government means that 10 more can be lent out.

With our current knowledge that most medical procedures have low mortality rates, and that only a low number of people have serious low-survivable conditions like late stage cancers, such a system can be set up on the condition that the money lent out is blind to the condition.

In addition, if by some chance the numbers don't work out and that more people are racking up huge bills and dying, than the system can support, the standard loan amounts to be paid back can always be adjusted to include a shared overhead to cover those cases.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:42:13 AM by Tom Bishop »

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rottingroom

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 11:14:41 AM »
Not to say this is a bad idea but it's irrelevant to the recent events. Obama was re-elected and the ACA was approved by a vote, time and time again. The republicans simply lost. Shutting down the government just because you don't get your way is childish. Their actions don't even affect the bill.

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Tausami

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 11:28:28 AM »
We've seen that the student loan system works,

As a student, I strongly disagree. All the student loan system does is make an entire generation start out with tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt. It discourages higher education and is a huge drain on the economy. We should be trying to get rid of such programs, not add more.

The democrats seem intent robbing peter to pay paul. This is morally unjust for many reasons.

Oh?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:30:03 AM by Tausami »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 11:40:23 AM »
Not to say this is a bad idea but it's irrelevant to the recent events. Obama was re-elected and the ACA was approved by a vote, time and time again. The republicans simply lost. Shutting down the government just because you don't get your way is childish. Their actions don't even affect the bill.

The republicans are simply doing what they were elected for. They were fairly elected to the house, and have this power to reject those budget items. They do not agree with Obama's budget which gives out hundreds of billions of dollars to people who did not earn it, and I don't blame them.

Obama does not get reign supreme because he was elected president. He plays a part in a system of government.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:50:54 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 11:43:28 AM »
As a student, I strongly disagree. All the student loan system does is make an entire generation start out with tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt. It discourages higher education and is a huge drain on the economy. We should be trying to get rid of such programs, not add more.

The student loan system is in place because you are poor and cannot pay you college tuition dues. The alternative to this system is that either you would not go to college at all, or that I would have to pay your college tuition by force.

With the government student loan system you are paying your own tuition. That' fair. The money I earn is mine. What would be unfair is if I was forced to pay for your tuition, giving you money that you did not earn and that I did not wish to share.

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rottingroom

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2013, 11:50:29 AM »
Tom, America is not defined as a capitalist state. We are a republic. This means we elect officials to vote on the issues. Whatever comes of that is the reality. Whatever your ideological beliefs are don't matter when the dust settles. If your preferences lose then you deal with it. You don't get to decide the way things ought to be alone. We have a system by which we decide how these things get determined. Having it your way or the highway is the opposite of how America works.

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Ocius

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2013, 11:54:29 AM »
I'd agree with Tom, except for the fact that Obamacare has been declared constitutional by the supreme court. Still, I'm not paying for health insurance if I don't want it. Obama can go fuck himself in that regard.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2013, 11:56:26 AM »
Tom, America is not defined as a capitalist state. We are a republic. This means we elect officials to vote on the issues. Whatever comes of that is the reality. Whatever your ideological beliefs are don't matter when the dust settles. If your preferences lose then you deal with it. You don't get to decide the way things ought to be alone. We have a system by which we decide how these things get determined. Having it your way or the highway is the opposite of how America works.

The Republicans were elected fairly to the house, and by law the house needs to agree with the budget proposal.

Things were fine until the Democrats tried to to get away with taking our wealth by force and giving it to others. The Republicans are not standing for it. It is absolutely unfair to take hundreds of billions of dollars that people have worked for and give it to people who did nothing to earn it.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:59:55 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Rushy

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2013, 11:56:56 AM »
Tom, America is not defined as a capitalist state. We are a republic.

oh please lord tell me this man is trolling

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rottingroom

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2013, 12:01:57 PM »
Tom, America is not defined as a capitalist state. We are a republic. This means we elect officials to vote on the issues. Whatever comes of that is the reality. Whatever your ideological beliefs are don't matter when the dust settles. If your preferences lose then you deal with it. You don't get to decide the way things ought to be alone. We have a system by which we decide how these things get determined. Having it your way or the highway is the opposite of how America works.

The Republicans were elected fairly to the house, and by law the house needs to agree with the budget proposal.

Things were fine until the Democrats tried to to get away with taking our wealth by force and giving it to others. The Republicans are not standing for it. That is absolutely unfair to give hundreds of billions of dollars to people who did nothing to earn it.

The motive to not get a budget passed has nothing to do with the budget itself. They're motive is unrelated to that. This is a hostage situation and a mockery of the Republic.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2013, 12:07:58 PM »
The motive to not get a budget passed has nothing to do with the budget itself. They're motive is unrelated to that. This is a hostage situation and a mockery of the Republic.

What do you mean it has nothing to do with the budget? Obamacare involves hundreds of billions of dollars added to it.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 12:14:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Rama Set

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2013, 12:10:38 PM »
Why should the money I earn be taken from me and be given to people who didn't earn it? I don't see why I should be supporting people who choose in life to turn on the TV rather than open a book. I have health insurance because I was driven to educate myself and do what was necessary to get it.

I stopped taking this seriously after this first paragraph.  You are assuming that all people who do not have the money for health insurance is because they watch TV instead of educating themself?  This is a totally myopic point of view.  What about people who cannot afford health insurance because the company they work for was run in to the ground, laid off tens of thousands of people, and there was no other available work for that many unemployed people.  Do you have a problem supporting them?
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rottingroom

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2013, 12:11:52 PM »
The motive to not get a budget passed has nothing to do with the budget itself. They're motive is unrelated to that. This is a hostage situation and a mockery of the Republic.

What do you mean it has nothing to do with the budget? Obamacare involves hundreds of billions of dollars added to it.

As I said, this shutdown does not stop ACA.

http://www.healthcare.gov

Are you going to tell me that the government shutdown (in terms of motive) is not related to ACA? That is the only link.

If it was related for just financial reasons they would have taken action that stops ACA, not the entire government. There isn't some indirect intent to just balance a checkbook. It's just a failed hostage situation.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 12:15:42 PM by rottingroom »

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Tausami

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2013, 12:17:45 PM »
As a student, I strongly disagree. All the student loan system does is make an entire generation start out with tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt. It discourages higher education and is a huge drain on the economy. We should be trying to get rid of such programs, not add more.

The student loan system is in place because you are poor and cannot pay you college tuition dues. The alternative to this system is that either you would not go to college at all, or that I would have to pay your college tuition by force.

With the government student loan system you are paying your own tuition. That' fair. The money I earn is mine. What would be unfair is if I was forced to pay for your tuition, giving you money that you did not earn and that I did not wish to share.

Frankly, I don't really care what's fair. The system doesn't make sense and is inherently destructive. It's a drain on the national economy which my generation will likely never entirely recover from. It costs everyone, including you, money and slows the growth of society as a whole.

Me getting a higher education doesn't just help me succeed. It helps you. My education allows me to invent the products you want to buy. My higher education allows me to research the cancer you'll get in twenty years. You paying for my education is an investment.

A note to the uninitiated:
Arguing with Tom is an inherently pointless endeavour. Don't go into it expecting to win. This is an argument for its own sake. There will be no victory.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 12:21:22 PM by Tausami »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2013, 12:22:02 PM »
I stopped taking this seriously after this first paragraph.  You are assuming that all people who do not have the money for health insurance is because they watch TV instead of educating themself?  This is a totally myopic point of view.  What about people who cannot afford health insurance because the company they work for was run in to the ground, laid off tens of thousands of people, and there was no other available work for that many unemployed people.  Do you have a problem supporting them?

Yes I do. If they can't see that they are in a dead field and choose to give up it's their own fault. Nothing was stopping those people from going back to school to get into a growing profession. For example, IT and medical fields are growing rapidly, and there are too many jobs, not too few. Companies are regularly importing workers from foreign nations to keep up with demand because there are too few in this country.

The market crashed nearly 6 years ago. It only takes 2 years to graduate from a trade school. I've seen people who have done that. If anyone is still unemployed, it's entirely their fault.

As I said, this shutdown does not stop ACA.

http://www.healthcare.gov

Are you going to tell me that the government shutdown (in terms of motive) is not related to ACA? That is the only link.

If it was related for just financial reasons they would have taken action that stops ACA, not the entire government. There isn't some indirect intent to just balance a checkbook. It's just a failed hostage situation.

The signup website for ACA may be online, but I don't believe payments are scheduled to be made until Jan 1st.  It's not in operation fiscally and doesn't need to draw from substantial government funds.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 12:04:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2013, 12:23:16 PM »
US healthcare system and its advocates continue to be a laughing stock to the rest of the first world.

News at 11.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2013, 12:24:44 PM »
I agree with rottingroom.  I know that doesn't really have anything to do with the merits of Tom's ideas in and of themselves, but at this stage, I just want to actually try Obamacare.  I'm tired of listening to all the predictions of how bad it will be.  Let's get some empirical evidence going.  The Republicans got to pass plenty of major policy changes during Bush's time in office, and now that they've been in operation for several years, most people feel quite strongly that they haven't worked.  Now it's time for the other side to get to make their changes.  Come to think of it, it was time for the other side to get to make their changes four and a half years ago, but I suppose late is better than never.

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rottingroom

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2013, 12:40:06 PM »
Here is what is really going on. The Republicans are afraid of the success of Obama and the Democrats. They have no choice but to sabotage any legacy that could come about if they had a chance. They are afraid that their already tattered reputation would be tarnished further if the alternative ideology was proven to be a success. The irony is that ACA has passed, the government shutdown is temporary and the actions of the republicans will be remembered in history as being analogous to a kicking and screaming child that didn't get their way and attempted to to bring everyone down with them.

Good luck in 2016 Republicans. You've just made your chances even worse.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 12:54:30 PM by rottingroom »

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DuckDodgers

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2013, 12:42:33 PM »
I stopped taking this seriously after this first paragraph.  You are assuming that all people who do not have the money for health insurance is because they watch TV instead of educating themself?  This is a totally myopic point of view.  What about people who cannot afford health insurance because the company they work for was run in to the ground, laid off tens of thousands of people, and there was no other available work for that many unemployed people.  Do you have a problem supporting them?

Yes I do. If they can see that they are in a dead field and choose to give up it's their own fault. Nothing was stopping those people from going back to school to get into a growing profession. For example, IT and medical fields are growing rapidly, and there are too many jobs, not too few. Companies are regularly importing workers from foreign nations to keep up with demand because there are too few in this country.

The market crashed nearly 6 years ago. It only takes 2 years to graduate from a trade school. I've seen people who have done that. If anyone is still unemployed, it's entirely their fault.

As I said, this shutdown does not stop ACA.

http://www.healthcare.gov

Are you going to tell me that the government shutdown (in terms of motive) is not related to ACA? That is the only link.

If it was related for just financial reasons they would have taken action that stops ACA, not the entire government. There isn't some indirect intent to just balance a checkbook. It's just a failed hostage situation.

The sigunup website for ACA may be online, but I don't believe payments are scheduled to be made until Jan 1st.  It's not in operation fiscally and doesn't need to draw from substantial government funds.
I just want to make a point about your call to go back to school to get into a growing field.  I know the medical field, particularly nursing, has a problem with finding enough job applicants because there are more openings than nursing student enrollment.  The constraint is in the education system.  I also wouldn't be surprised if this problem exists in other growing career fields. 
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Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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Pyrolizard

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2013, 12:51:10 PM »
I stopped taking this seriously after this first paragraph.  You are assuming that all people who do not have the money for health insurance is because they watch TV instead of educating themself?  This is a totally myopic point of view.  What about people who cannot afford health insurance because the company they work for was run in to the ground, laid off tens of thousands of people, and there was no other available work for that many unemployed people.  Do you have a problem supporting them?

Yes I do. If they can see that they are in a dead field and choose to give up it's their own fault. Nothing was stopping those people from going back to school to get into a growing profession.
Except for a lack of proficiency or ability in any growing fields, coupled with a lack of capital to acquire education that would give them that proficiency or ability.

For example, IT and medical fields are growing rapidly, and there are too many jobs, not too few. Companies are regularly importing workers from foreign nations to keep up with demand because there are too few in this country.
And medical requires a large amount of very expensive education.  This on top of the very high pedigree needed to get into any kind of medical school, positions in medical school are very competitive in spite of the high job demand.  The same could be said of the jobs in medical, a great degree of proficiency is required to be considered much of the time.

I can't speak to the expense or difficulty of the IT field, however, I'd guess there is a similar situation as far as jobs go.

The market crashed nearly 6 years ago. It only takes 2 years to graduate from a trade school. I've seen people who have done that. If anyone is still unemployed, it's entirely their fault.
Yep, it's not like having no money, mountains of debt, and no stable income stops people from paying for an education.  Most of them only have one or two mortgages and a family to pay for.
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Saddam Hussein

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2013, 12:55:59 PM »
I wonder how many threads Tom has made to rant about poor people by now.

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Tausami

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2013, 12:59:02 PM »
Tom, if there are 9 jobs and 12 people, three people aren't going to have jobs. I don't care how you try to rephrase it. I don't care if one of the jobs is having trouble hiring. Three people aren't going to have jobs. You can't blame those three for that fact. Maybe if they'd worked harder they could have taken one of the 9 jobs. But there'd still be three people without jobs.

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Rama Set

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2013, 12:59:18 PM »
I stopped taking this seriously after this first paragraph.  You are assuming that all people who do not have the money for health insurance is because they watch TV instead of educating themself?  This is a totally myopic point of view.  What about people who cannot afford health insurance because the company they work for was run in to the ground, laid off tens of thousands of people, and there was no other available work for that many unemployed people.  Do you have a problem supporting them?

Yes I do. If they can see that they are in a dead field and choose to give up it's their own fault. Nothing was stopping those people from going back to school to get into a growing profession. For example, IT and medical fields are growing rapidly, and there are too many jobs, not too few. Companies are regularly importing workers from foreign nations to keep up with demand because there are too few in this country.

The market crashed nearly 6 years ago. It only takes 2 years to graduate from a trade school. I've seen people who have done that. If anyone is still unemployed, it's entirely their fault.

Lets not even get in to your vacuous reasoning of how everyone automatically, and is required to have the money for school.  By your own admission this process would take over 2 years which is more than enough time to go from needing healthcare, to desperately needing healthcare, to being dead.  How do you propose to humanely take care of these people who are trying to do the right thing?

I would also like to add a little anecdote about my sister-in-law, who just gave birth to a baby in California, where it costed approximately $10,000 to have her child.  She had insurance.  How screwed up is that?
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Rama Set

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2013, 01:00:13 PM »
I wonder how many threads Tom has made to rant about poor people by now.

Doesn't Tom know that rich people can't be rich without poor people?  Or is he counting on it...
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Tausami

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2013, 01:04:20 PM »
I wonder how many threads Tom has made to rant about poor people by now.

Doesn't Tom know that rich people can't be rich without poor people?  Or is he counting on it...

He's more concerned with the fact that the poor can't stop being poor without, in effect, taking money away from the rich.

Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2013, 01:04:49 PM »
I'm pretty much a hardliner on the unemployed and those who take the mickey out the system but, any human being should be entitled to free healthcare, at the same standard, no matter what their wealth.

Refusing to treat someone because they can't afford it is absolutely wrong.



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Rama Set

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2013, 01:08:42 PM »
I am with you on that. 
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Tausami

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2013, 01:20:27 PM »
Here's my thoughts on the matter, if you don't mind a slightly off-topic rant.

There should be a baseline below which nobody should be allowed to fall. This baseline should be enough that people are able to live without fear. Without fear of hunger, illness, etc. While people who live off of healthcare are awful human beings and the reason we can't have nice things, I don't believe they should ruin it for everyone else. I also don't believe that they deserve to die for their laziness and I don't believe their children should be punished for it. Nor do I believe that they are as common as Fox wants us to believe.

I feel that there should be a minimum salary. No one should be allowed to make less than it while working. If you are on government assistance, you should be paid less than the minimum salary, but should still be able to survive.

I also feel that we need to fundamentally change the way healthcare works here. We pay hundreds of times more for the same treatment in America because the industry can get away with it and there's nothing we can do about it. I think that the reason this is a problem is that healthcare is an industry. It should not be an industry. It's the industry of keeping people from dying an excruciating death. It really ought to be a human right.

As for where the money to fund these things should come from, therein lies the rub. The inefficiency of our current model, in which we let the problem go until it becomes inordinately expensive to fix, means that this type of program would not cost as much more as it would seem to. Much of the money would have to come from the rich, of course. I know that makes a lot of people uncomfortable, but frankly they can afford it. We don't need to coddle the rich. They have proven through the very fact that they are rich that they can take care of themselves. In addition, the increased stability in the economy caused by the poor being less poor would make it easier for them to make more money. Healthcare is the single largest drain on our economy. If we plugged that drain the rich would prosper for it even if we took half of their profits.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2013, 08:25:53 PM »
Tom, if there are 9 jobs and 12 people, three people aren't going to have jobs. I don't care how you try to rephrase it. I don't care if one of the jobs is having trouble hiring. Three people aren't going to have jobs. You can't blame those three for that fact. Maybe if they'd worked harder they could have taken one of the 9 jobs. But there'd still be three people without jobs.

You have it all wrong. There are not a lack of jobs in this country. There is a lack of low skill jobs. If anyone is out of a job it's simply because they have not tried hard enough.

Even the mentally retarded have managed to finish college.

Lets not even get in to your vacuous reasoning of how everyone automatically, and is required to have the money for school.

Tausami is going to school without the need of having money, via loans. If you haven't noticed, the government has been giving student loans out to nearly everyone, even if they have no credit at all.

Quote
By your own admission this process would take over 2 years which is more than enough time to go from needing healthcare, to desperately needing healthcare, to being dead.  How do you propose to humanely take care of these people who are trying to do the right thing?

What are you talking about? I didn't suggest that seriously ill people should go to college.

Quote
I would also like to add a little anecdote about my sister-in-law, who just gave birth to a baby in California, where it costed approximately $10,000 to have her child.  She had insurance.  How screwed up is that?

I don't find it screwed up. Sounds like she probably got a deal to me.

She likely had a low-cost insurance plan with a high deductible. With this sort of plan she is getting incredibly cheap insurance of perhaps $150 a month and meet her deductible, but would be liable for any minor events through the year under their deductible.

Since many people have that sort of money laying around in their rainy day fund, these sort of plans make sense. Her monthly burden is a lot less than other people who need to pay $500 a month or more for their individual plans, and any major illnesses would be covered. She could get cancer, and rack up 200K in medical bills, yet continue paying only $150 a month. The insurance company is betting that she would only need minor medical needs under 10K.

If her pregnancy or baby had serious complications and needed $80K worth of medical treatment, she would only need to have to pay up to the amount of her $10K deductible, not the entire $80K. The next week after that she could have a heart attack, and not have to pay for any of it.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 12:08:05 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: An alternative to Obamacare
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2013, 08:32:12 PM »
Here's my thoughts on the matter, if you don't mind a slightly off-topic rant.

There should be a baseline below which nobody should be allowed to fall. This baseline should be enough that people are able to live without fear. Without fear of hunger, illness, etc. While people who live off of healthcare are awful human beings and the reason we can't have nice things, I don't believe they should ruin it for everyone else. I also don't believe that they deserve to die for their laziness and I don't believe their children should be punished for it. Nor do I believe that they are as common as Fox wants us to believe.

I feel that there should be a minimum salary. No one should be allowed to make less than it while working. If you are on government assistance, you should be paid less than the minimum salary, but should still be able to survive.

I also feel that we need to fundamentally change the way healthcare works here. We pay hundreds of times more for the same treatment in America because the industry can get away with it and there's nothing we can do about it. I think that the reason this is a problem is that healthcare is an industry. It should not be an industry. It's the industry of keeping people from dying an excruciating death. It really ought to be a human right.

As for where the money to fund these things should come from, therein lies the rub. The inefficiency of our current model, in which we let the problem go until it becomes inordinately expensive to fix, means that this type of program would not cost as much more as it would seem to. Much of the money would have to come from the rich, of course. I know that makes a lot of people uncomfortable, but frankly they can afford it. We don't need to coddle the rich. They have proven through the very fact that they are rich that they can take care of themselves. In addition, the increased stability in the economy caused by the poor being less poor would make it easier for them to make more money. Healthcare is the single largest drain on our economy. If we plugged that drain the rich would prosper for it even if we took half of their profits.
 

If you give people everything they need: food, clothes, housing, medical care, retirement, child benefits, phones, and a post-secondary education, what's the point of putting in an effort and succeeding anymore?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 08:43:59 PM by Tom Bishop »