Voliva

Did Voliva write a book? Is it possible to read it online?

Given that he had the Flat Earth capital in his hands, its surprising how little he came out with.

Here's one:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Which_Will_You_Accept.html?id=UEywHAAACAAJ

Thanks John. The title sounds biblical though: Which Will You Accept?: The Bible, the Inspired Word of God Or the Infidel Theories of Modern Astronomy. Unfortunately that book seems to be only available in hard format. EDIT: it is not even available to buy anymore.

Does anyone have a soft copy of the below?

He's extremely Biblically minded. I imagine most his flat earth work is contained as a rather small subset of his larger literalist take on the bible. If soft copies of this are in circulation, I'd love to know as well. It would be fun read, some of the biblical flat earthers caught some very interesting thoughts, even if in the end by the large they would rely heavily on biblical axioms.

As you can see below he used God as his argument while explaining his view on the sun's dimension (32 miles across) and distance (3,000 miles away) and yet this is what was finally adopted by the majority of FEers now. So, although extremely biblical, I am sure his influence is very strong within the FES. That's why I am really interested in seeing his work.

The idea of a sun millions of miles in diameter and 91,000,000 miles away is silly. The sun is only 32 miles across and not more than 3,000 miles from the earth. It stands to reason it must be so. God made the sun to light the earth, and therefore must have placed it close to the task it was designed to do. What would you think of a man who built a house in Zion and put the lamp to light it in Kenosha, Wisconsin?

Whereas Rowbotham who came up with a conclusion that the sun was only 700 miles away or less doesn't seem to be widely accepted by FES although he clearly used a zetetic experiment to measure the sun's distance.

Once you move beyond Rowbotham you find a lot of disagreement, unfortunately, on the height of the heavens and their size. Terra Firma talks a bit about this. One thing the majority, myself excluded, believe is that they are substantially smaller and closer than in other conventional worldviews - to account for the contrary assumption to that of Eratosthenes.  There is no doubt his work was important and his influence strong, and I agree that it would be a useful text, it just happens to be one that I haven't examined in detail. His work is on my list of zetetic authors' work to get intimately familiar with.

In general, the wide majority of literature on the flat earth is biblical based, stemming from the 1900-ish Christian Science movement. Rowbotham being the best at separating his zeteticism from his religious beliefs (in ENaG, most of the biblical material is at the end, in a comparatively short section) seems to have the most supporters here, despite several differing views. I have to assume its due to the almost unilaterally secular view of the society (born both out presumably of need and philosophical soundness.)

On a side note, I feel like many of these writers should have taken better account to Job, at least in a less literal sense as they often talk of Job due its imagery concerning the description of God's creations. Their use of their brand of reason mimics the issue in Job's mindset - God made this, so to question his order or reasoning based off of human point of view is silly.  In short, the ethics and morality of God are not those of men, nor is his design sense - a repeated meme in several of the monomyth.  Given Job is one of the oft most quoted books for planism, one would have hoped this angle of its message was not ignored.

As you move away from the 1900s and towards 2000 the movement and writings shift more and more away from religious context and into a more "conspiracy" based fringe|pseudo science view.

One thing I'd love to see here, and it is a thing I have been slowly injecting into our threads, is a movement away from a strictly Rowbotham / Shenton view or at least quoting so in part folks can see why, in this example, the community went with 3000 miles over 700. We have our own set of views that developed out of many of these texts and also our community and they are in serious need of review and organization. The fractured nature of the communities views (Rowbotham strict, Religious (outside of forum use mostly), Rewritten History, Relativistic, Aetheric|Bendylight|Law of Perspect, and Infinite|Finite Earth to name a few) is one of our strengths, as we wish to examine an unorthodox view from as many angles as can be possible, yet it also breads confusion.

Isn't Terra Firma also biblical? Its full title is Terra Firma : The Earth Not A Planet, Proved From Scripture, Reason And Fact (1901)

Isn't Terra Firma also biblical? Its full title is Terra Firma : The Earth Not A Planet, Proved From Scripture, Reason And Fact (1901)

Yes it is. Its probably one of the better sources if you wish to find biblical quotes concerning a Flat Earth.  He even, though a self-admited layperson, refers to some of the work in original language.

If I Recall Correctly:
He does however cover the issue of size and distance of the stars, quoting several sources including Rowbotham, and notes the same inconsistency you do. He resigns to leave it up to others, more or less.

I can likely dig up the section; if you are particularly interested send me a pm and I'll do it when I check my messages later today.

I flicked through Terra Firma and the author clearly based his arguments on the scripture, like Voliva, or copied Rowbotham's works.

I have observed that, from Rowbotham to Shenton (Samuel), the Bible played an enormous role in their Flat Earthism. And they were all Christian, and for that matter, Protestant. As a traditional Jew, I am inclined to accept a Biblical understanding. The ancient Hebrews accepted a cosmogony of a flat Earth. Although it appears that much of today's FES is not religiously motivated, I should be curious to find out if there are others who adhere to a Biblical viewpoint, and if there are any Jews in the batch.

I have observed that, from Rowbotham to Shenton (Samuel), the Bible played an enormous role in their Flat Earthism. And they were all Christian, and for that matter, Protestant. As a traditional Jew, I am inclined to accept a Biblical understanding. The ancient Hebrews accepted a cosmogony of a flat Earth. Although it appears that much of today's FES is not religiously motivated, I should be curious to find out if there are others who adhere to a Biblical viewpoint, and if there are any Jews in the batch.

I believe the Bible supports a FE view. It is puzzling to me as to why most of the FE'ers do not like the Bible. On second thought, Jesus is the reason they don't like the Bible. It is obvious to me that an explosion did not create the universe and all living creatures, and put us in a natural habitat that is good to live in.

Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 03, 2013, 10:13:26 PM

I have observed that, from Rowbotham to Shenton (Samuel), the Bible played an enormous role in their Flat Earthism. And they were all Christian, and for that matter, Protestant. As a traditional Jew, I am inclined to accept a Biblical understanding. The ancient Hebrews accepted a cosmogony of a flat Earth. Although it appears that much of today's FES is not religiously motivated, I should be curious to find out if there are others who adhere to a Biblical viewpoint, and if there are any Jews in the batch.

I believe the Bible supports a FE view. It is puzzling to me as to why most of the FE'ers do not like the Bible. On second thought, Jesus is the reason they don't like the Bible. It is obvious to me that an explosion did not create the universe and all living creatures, and put us in a natural habitat that is good to live in.

Me too, I don't understand how non religious people can believe in flat earth. Maybe they are just anti mainstream. Some people just hate mainstream because since a lot of people like it them not liking it would make them feel different and cool.

I have observed that, from Rowbotham to Shenton (Samuel), the Bible played an enormous role in their Flat Earthism. And they were all Christian, and for that matter, Protestant. As a traditional Jew, I am inclined to accept a Biblical understanding. The ancient Hebrews accepted a cosmogony of a flat Earth. Although it appears that much of today's FES is not religiously motivated, I should be curious to find out if there are others who adhere to a Biblical viewpoint, and if there are any Jews in the batch.

Religion came about at a very primitive time in our history. So it's not much of a surprise that some ideas like a flat earth or the world actually having corners would have been dreamed up as well.

There are a ton of cosmological myths. But we know today that the world isn't flat, it doesn't sit on the back of a turtle, a great god didn't sneeze and create the universe, and so on and so forth.

Umurweird, I can show you 2,015,000,000 people, many of them scientists, nearly all of them Rounders, who would challenge that last statement. It is well known that 85% of people believe in a deity. The figure above (2 million plus) represents Christians, Jews, and Muslims. It does not include Hindus, theistic Buddhists, et al.

I apologize Yaakov but I don't really understand what you're saying here. I didn't say that no one believes in a deity, I'm quite aware of the fact a majority of people do.

What I said was religions were formed in a primitive time in our history. That's a fact. Which is why it's no surprise religious texts would say the world is flat, has four corners, and so on and so forth. Things like that are cosmological myths.........born at a time when we had much less of an understanding of the world around us than we do today.

I'm interested in what exactly you are challenging in that statement.

Umurweird, greeting: Pardon me for misunderstanding the intent of your statement. I thought you were implying that humans today were mostly 'not primitive' and therefore, irreligious. I stand corrected. Of course, as re: your idea (if I am understanding you correctly) that the Bible is a primitive document, I would disagree, just as would many others. For me, the Bible (which does NOT include the New Testament, since I am a Jew) is hardly primitive, but rather encapsulates God's commandments to His Chosen People, the Jews. For me, this includes the question of the shape of the Earth. I don't know if you all get the hang of what I'm saying. I don't believe the Bible is primitive. Rather, it is inspired by God, and thus cannot be dated or primitive, if you get my point.

Umurweird, greeting: Pardon me for misunderstanding the intent of your statement. I thought you were implying that humans today were mostly 'not primitive' and therefore, irreligious. I stand corrected. Of course, as re: your idea (if I am understanding you correctly) that the Bible is a primitive document, I would disagree, just as would many others. For me, the Bible (which does NOT include the New Testament, since I am a Jew) is hardly primitive, but rather encapsulates God's commandments to His Chosen People, the Jews. For me, this includes the question of the shape of the Earth. I don't know if you all get the hang of what I'm saying. I don't believe the Bible is primitive. Rather, it is inspired by God, and thus cannot be dated or primitive, if you get my point.

The bible is primitive. Esspecially compared to what we understand today. I'm looking at this from a time perspective and a comparison to what man was like then versus how he is now.

The book of genesis is lifted from much of earlier religious and creationist texts. Sumer......a civilization settled somewhere around or before 4000 BC.......had a creation story very similar to what you will read in genesis. The Sumerians believed in polytheism so there's a difference but much of what they wrote about the creation of man is very similar to what you will read in the bible...........a book written much later in history. It's like someone took the old story, did a revision, and then re-published it. The Sumer stories even spoke of a great flood.

You'll find this a lot if you look back in time. The same stories or myths passed down over time and often times customized to fit certain societies or races of people. So if it is all inspired by god.......he/she/it obviously has a healthy sense of humor to have told the same story to a thousand different sects and made them all feel as if they were the chosen ones.

I do not dispute that the Genesis account shows striking similarity to that of Sumer. Of course, you are wrong about the date of composition for Genesis. I do not accept today's so-called biblical 'scholarship'. Moses wrote the Genesis account, not much later (possibly at the same time) as the Sumerian account was compiled. Are the stories similar? Yes. God gives people as much truth as they can handle. Why do you think that every major culture has a Flood account? Because the Flood actually happened. And no, no other people has regarded itself (or has been regarded by others) as chosen in the unique way that Jews were and are. I challenge you to find one other ethno-religious group on Earth that occupies quite the same position as we do. With the possible exception of the Japanese, you won't be able to, and even they don't provide an exact match.

Of course, you are wrong about the date of composition for Genesis. I do not accept today's so-called biblical 'scholarship'.

Yeah, it would be silly to accept the work of people who have made it their lifes work to study these things and come up with logical, factual, evidence backed answers.

Moses wrote the Genesis account, not much later (possibly at the same time) as the Sumerian account was compiled.

So how exactly do two similar stories get written.......at the same time..........one featuring a single god while the other features many gods? Moses had better hearing than the guy from Sumer that transcribed the stories?

Your people have calculated a date of Moses' birth at around 1391 BC if I am not mistaken. And Sumer was founded somewhere around 4000 BC. I gots a problem with this.

Why do you think that every major culture has a Flood account? Because the Flood actually happened.

For one, myths get passed down from generation to generation and get altered over time.

But, yes, there is certainly actual evidence that a great flood did once actually happen. And it probably happened more than once. Earth has went through a lot of changes in it's history. Ice ages, mini ice ages, times of intense heating, floods, earthquakes, and on and on.

And no, no other people has regarded itself (or has been regarded by others) as chosen in the unique way that Jews were and are. I challenge you to find one other ethno-religious group on Earth that occupies quite the same position as we do. With the possible exception of the Japanese, you won't be able to, and even they don't provide an exact match.

How about the Rastafarian people? Chosen by Jah and thought of as the true children of Israel.

Mormons are chosen. Unification Church was chosen. Seventh day adventist are chosen. The second Vatican council basically declared Catholics chosen and made them the "new" people of god.

So many religions...........all chosen by the one true god. I believe in none of them but I hope that in the event I'm wrong.......the Scientologists got it right because that would hilarious.

Scientology! *ROTFLMFAO*  Ok, you got me on that. But, notice I said ethno-religious group. The Mormons are a religious group. The Rastafarians are a religious group. In fact, every group you mentioned is a religious group, but none of them are ethno-religious like we are. And although they have a chosen view of themselves, they are not generally regarded by others in that light. Jews, whether you like us or hate us, have been regarded as unique by themselves and by others. Even the Japanese don't present a like parallel, although they perhaps come closest.

As for modern biblical "scholarship", the fact that somebody spends his life coming up with erroneous stuff does not make that stuff any more true. As for the date of the Sumerian account v. the Mosaic account, Sumer may have been settled 4000 years BCE.  But as for when their creation story was written, I do believe it was rather later, after they had been settled for a fair period of time. However, you may be right that theirs came first. And if it did, so what? The fact that Moses (who was educated in the Egyptian court) knew the Sumerian account does not imply that what he wrote was less true. It simply implies that the Sumerians got it partly right. Again, God grants people as much truth as they can handle.

Only in the last 200 years has so-called modern biblical scholarship been around. I prefer to take the scholarship of the Prophets, Sages, and Rabbis of Israel over modern scholars, many of whom have no faith in the very text they claim to study. Go spend some time reading the Talmud, soak up the wisdom of the Rabbis, and then come talk to me.

Just by way of definition, the Talmud was written over a period of about 1000 years (from 500 BCE to 500 CE), and represents the wisdom of the Sages and Rabbis of Israel, and is a commentary on the Bible and Jewish life. If you already knew that, I apologise for telling you what you didn't need to know. But, I don't know how good your knowledge of Judaism is.

Well, all that having been said, I have to close for now. I have some errands to run. I shall try to get back on the computer (or at least my phone) later in the day. So perhaps I shall see you later.

But, notice I said ethno-religious group. The Mormons are a religious group. The Rastafarians are a religious group.

The Rastafari movement are ethno-religious. Afro-centric movement started in Jamaica.

And although they have a chosen view of themselves, they are not generally regarded by others in that light.

Muslims don't regard jews as chosen. They believe it to be the biggest lie the jews ever told. Athiests, like myself, don't regard you as chosen. Nor do Buddhists.

Jews have a chosen view of themselves.........and so does every other religion.

Jews, whether you like us or hate us, have been regarded as unique by themselves and by others. Even the Japanese don't present a like parallel, although they perhaps come closest.

Jews are no more unique in this world than any other race or religion.

As for modern biblical "scholarship", the fact that somebody spends his life coming up with erroneous stuff does not make that stuff any more true.

How is researching stuff and looking for and finding proof of it erroneous? Because it doesn't agree with your scripture?

As for the date of the Sumerian account v. the Mosaic account, Sumer may have been settled 4000 years BCE.  But as for when their creation story was written, I do believe it was rather later, after they had been settled for a fair period of time.

Cuneiform, their method of recording history, was being used in the 4th millenia BC. Still well before the birth of Moses.

However, you may be right that theirs came first. And if it did, so what? The fact that Moses (who was educated in the Egyptian court) knew the Sumerian account does not imply that what he wrote was less true. It simply implies that the Sumerians got it partly right. Again, God grants people as much truth as they can handle.

But......the jews are chosen, right? So Moses just happened to have been told some information thousands of years after some other people were and that is no big deal?

The Sumerians believed in many gods. But if they had the same stories as Moses did, and Moses got his info straight from the big guy, doesn't that mean that the Sumerians had to as well? But they didn't believe in a single god. Does god have multipersonality disorder?

Only in the last 200 years has so-called modern biblical scholarship been around. I prefer to take the scholarship of the Prophets, Sages, and Rabbis of Israel over modern scholars, many of whom have no faith in the very text they claim to study. Go spend some time reading the Talmud, soak up the wisdom of the Rabbis, and then come talk to me.

I choose to believe things that can be proven. I trust logic over faith.

Just by way of definition, the Talmud was written over a period of about 1000 years (from 500 BCE to 500 CE), and represents the wisdom of the Sages and Rabbis of Israel, and is a commentary on the Bible and Jewish life. If you already knew that, I apologise for telling you what you didn't need to know. But, I don't know how good your knowledge of Judaism is.

I know what the Talmud is. I'm familiar with most religious texts at least in a basic understanding. I also married a jewish woman that comes from a very devout family. I'm certainly no expert, but I have a decent grasp at the very least.

Well, as I said, God gives people the truth of what they can handle. If the Sumerians gained knowledge of the creation of the world, but did not have knowledge of the True God, that meant they were getting what would help them.

Rastafarians are debatable. In fact, there are quite a few non-Jamaicans that accept the tenants of that faith. Most are admittedly black, but not all.

Just because the Sumerians were using cuneiform in 4000 BCE, does not mean that their creation story had been given them at that date. I am not sure of the date of composition of the Sumerian creation story, to be honest. But, I'll grant that it may have been before Moses. Which does not in any way take away from Moses.

Again, I recommend you soak up the knowledge of the Rabbis, and then come talk to me.

And, I think you are wrong when you say that we have a view of ourselves that is not shared by others. Just the fact that we have been pretty much the most persecuted people in the history of the world indicates that others do consider us unique. Obviously that is not always a good thing! Like Tevye said in Fiddler on the Roof: "I know, I know, we are the Chosen People. But once in awhile, couldn't you choose someone else?"

Well, as I said, God gives people the truth of what they can handle. If the Sumerians gained knowledge of the creation of the world, but did not have knowledge of the True God, that meant they were getting what would help them.

So god gave them tidbits and saved the best information for when Moses would be born?

Makes total sense. Or not.

Rastafarians are debatable. In fact, there are quite a few non-Jamaicans that accept the tenants of that faith. Most are admittedly black, but not all.

There are quite a few non-jews that accept the tenants of Judaism.

Just because the Sumerians were using cuneiform in 4000 BCE, does not mean that their creation story had been given them at that date. I am not sure of the date of composition of the Sumerian creation story, to be honest. But, I'll grant that it may have been before Moses. Which does not in any way take away from Moses.

I believe the actual date of the known cuneiforms in existence have been dated from around 1800 BC to 1600 but are believed to be copies of older cuneiforms not recovered.

They also contain a story of a flood and a guy building an ark to escape it with his wife. I'm sure this takes nothing away from Noah because building arks and world wide floods that erased mankind from the earth were so commonplace back then.

Again, I recommend you soak up the knowledge of the Rabbis, and then come talk to me.

I'm more than comfortable in my beliefs. And I think I've proven I can speak on these subjects from a basic level or understanding without embarrassing myself.

And, I think you are wrong when you say that we have a view of ourselves that is not shared by others.

You think you follow the religion that is chosen by god to be the only religion man should follow.

So do Christians. So do Muslims. Mormons and so on and so forth.

You're not special. You're not original. Sorry to break that news to you.

Just the fact that we have been pretty much the most persecuted people in the history of the world indicates that others do consider us unique.

It's debatable that jews are the most persecuted in history. Certainly the most commonly promoted these days, and could probably claim to be the longest persecuted.......though they aren't exactly being persecuted today. But I believe native americans would need to figure into the coversation, they went from being one of the largest ethno groups on the planet to a minority. Aboriginal tasmanians as well. Decendents of Ishmael have been persecuted by none other than the jews for quite awhile. The Ainu in Japan, though far less documented, come to mind for me.

This would be a lengthy conversation and a lot of factors would come into play.

Actually, Judaism does not mandate that everybody should be Jewish. In fact, Judaism is the religion and philosophy of the Jewish People. Anyone who wishes to follow Judaism is welcome to become a Jew, but they are hardly expected to. Jews know what God has revealed to the Jews. What he may or may not have revealed to Gentiles is not for us to know. But certainly one does not have to be a Jew to achieve Paradise! Beyond that, I would love to see how Jews have been persecuting Arabs! I'm not allowed to even enter the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia! Israel, on the other hand, is 22% Arab, & they have the rights of any other citizen. & before you bring up the so-called 'Palestinians', Israel is only protecting itself from terrorists. The occupation would end today if 'Palestinians' recognised Israel's right to exist. I suggest that you don't know as much as you think, & that you are unequipped to even go there with me. Do you really want to open that can of worms?

Actually, Judaism does not mandate that everybody should be Jewish. In fact, Judaism is the religion and philosophy of the Jewish People. Anyone who wishes to follow Judaism is welcome to become a Jew, but they are hardly expected to.

Not really what I meant. Jews consider their race and religion as superior to others. They are chosen, they will inherit gods earth. Not that they are the only religion on the planet with this thought.

Beyond that, I would love to see how Jews have been persecuting Arabs!

Same way arabs persecute jews. It's never really been one-sided, contrary to what some people believe.

I'm not allowed to even enter the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia!

Why should you want to? I was born there and have no desire to go back.

And for the record, it's not just jews that are off limits in Saudi Arabia. No non-muslim activity can take place on Saudi soil. It's only been during times of american soliders being in the country that they allowed some christian services.

Israel is only protecting itself from terrorists. The occupation would end today if 'Palestinians' recognised Israel's right to exist.

I'm not trying to point out right and wrong, as I don't a share a position in a debate like this. I see right and wrong on both sides. Palestinians need to recognize the Jews right to exist and the fact the Jews fought for and won the land they now reside in. And Jews need to understand they can limit some of the tension by recognizing the Palestinian state. I doubt it would fix the problem as I don't think anything ever will in that area of the world. And it typically all comes down to religion, which is very sad in my opinion.

I suggest that you don't know as much as you think

I'm not trying to pretend I know anything. I'm sure my knowledge falls short in a lot of areas.

that you are unequipped to even go there with me. Do you really want to open that can of worms?

I believe the can is already open. And I also believe I've shown I'm equipped well enough for at least a basic conversation.

At least Christians or other non- Muslims can enter the country, albeit they cannot be open about their beliefs. A Jew is not even allowed to enter. In fact, ANYONE whose passport has a stamp from Israel (to say nothing of an Israeli passport) is automatically denied entry to the Kingdom. And no, I never met a Jew who thought he was better than a non-Jew. Our Chosenness is in order to bring the world to ethical monotheism. Without us, Christianity and Islam would not exist.

At least Christians or other non- Muslims can enter the country, albeit they cannot be open about their beliefs. A Jew is not even allowed to enter. In fact, ANYONE whose passport has a stamp from Israel (to say nothing of an Israeli passport) is automatically denied entry to the Kingdom.

It's not like you're missing much buddy. There's a lot of sand, sharia law, and a bunch of oil.

You will likely be denied a visa if you are a Israeli national or you have an Israeli stamp on your passport.......but you will also be denied if you put a check mark next to athiest as well. So I, like you, are not welcome there either and I was born in Jeddah.

And again.........how is being denied entry to a strict muslim country you wouldn't want to be in anyway an example of persecution.

Americans can't get into Cuba or North Korea without special exemptions..........are they being persecuted as well?

Our Chosenness is in order to bring the world to ethical monotheism

You're doing a smashing job sir.

Without us, Christianity and Islam would not exist.

Nothing to brag about.

Well, the point is not whether I would want to go to KSA. The point is that they are anti-Semitic a--h---s. I won't deny that Islam is a bit of a pox on civilisation. Christianity's record is more mixed. 'I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.' Gandhi. As far as bringing ethical monotheism to the world, we have done that.

Well, the point is not whether I would want to go to KSA. The point is that they are anti-Semitic a--h---s.

I thought the original point was persecution of your people and you not being allowed in was an example?

I won't deny that Islam is a bit of a pox on civilisation.

I agree. But I share this same view of all religions. Save perhaps Buddhism.

As far as bringing ethical monotheism to the world, we have done that.

If you say so.