If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn, you balanced the forces yourself with your own density and that of your bike.
The very second you turned and leaned into the corner, you created a HIGH pressure environment under that lean, you compressed the air down that side with your body and your bike.
Because of this, that compressed air immediately gets pushed around you to the outside to compensate or equalize.

OK - so to summarise, I lean the bike and compress the air underneath me therefore creating high pressure inside me which in turn is the force I feel trying to push me to the outside.

So, why can't I lean the bike at say 10Mph? Why do I need to be going at speed before I can lean significantly?

I've skipped a few pages, so I'm not sure if anyone brought up motorcycles in relation to inertia. Y'all have been focusing on the bus analogy, but what about a motorbike? I ride whenever I get the chance, and there's something I'd like to point out that are relevant to this discussion.

When accelerating hard from a standing start (or a rolling start, for that matter), it takes quite a bit of effort to stay on the bike. Once at a steady speed though, with the substantial increase in dynamic air pressure against the front of my body, it's relatively easy to remain in place. I feel this is a major contradiction to scepti's hypothesis that air pressure is the true source of inertia. How can it be, if I feel less like I'm going to fall off the back of my bike while maintaining 100kph (large pressure difference between the front and back of my body) than I do when accelerating from standstill (no pressure difference)?

I considered it but thought that the danger of tangents into gyroscopic forces and why motorcycles stay upright at all might blow scepti's mind.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 06:14:19 AM

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn, you balanced the forces yourself with your own density and that of your bike.
The very second you turned and leaned into the corner, you created a HIGH pressure environment under that lean, you compressed the air down that side with your body and your bike.
Because of this, that compressed air immediately gets pushed around you to the outside to compensate or equalize.

OK - so to summarise, I lean the bike and compress the air underneath me therefore creating high pressure inside me which in turn is the force I feel trying to push me to the outside.

So, why can't I lean the bike at say 10Mph? Why do I need to be going at speed before I can lean significantly?

Good question and I'll be glad to answer it.
The reason why you are unstable going slowly is the very same reason a rocket would be unstable if it went slowly, vertical.
Think if balancing a broom handle on your finger. It takes you to move about to balance it, right?
Now imagine putting that broom handle in a big bow and firing it like an arrow vertically into the air. no problem, right?

Your speed is paramount compared to your mass to ensure a balance of stability. so going slow means you are pushing against the air in front which is trying to evenly rush around you, but the air above you is pushing down on you and because you are not perfectly shaped and neither is your bike. It unbalances...
However, if you create enough speed, you also create much more friction against your and the bikes mass, so as  you hit the air in front and the air above is always pushing down...the air you hit, is being channeled around your body, each side and grips you as if you were going through a tight tunnel with no play at each side to allow you to wobble...unless of course you decided to want to by unbalancing yourself.

It's like going fast in a car and sticking your arm out of the window...you immediately feel the friction want to bend your arm back into the side of the car.
Try throwing a cigarette out of the drivers window at speed and what do you find? you find that it hits a wall and comes back in or just goes out and hits the poor git in the back seat. lol.

Do you understand what I mean?

Quote from: Scintific Method on January 10, 2014, 05:45:58 AM

I've skipped a few pages, so I'm not sure if anyone brought up motorcycles in relation to inertia. Y'all have been focusing on the bus analogy, but what about a motorbike? I ride whenever I get the chance, and there's something I'd like to point out that are relevant to this discussion.

When accelerating hard from a standing start (or a rolling start, for that matter), it takes quite a bit of effort to stay on the bike. Once at a steady speed though, with the substantial increase in dynamic air pressure against the front of my body, it's relatively easy to remain in place. I feel this is a major contradiction to scepti's hypothesis that air pressure is the true source of inertia. How can it be, if I feel less like I'm going to fall off the back of my bike while maintaining 100kph (large pressure difference between the front and back of my body) than I do when accelerating from standstill (no pressure difference)?

I considered it but thought that the danger of tangents into gyroscopic forces and why motorcycles stay upright at all might blow scepti's mind.

You can't blow my mind with this stuff, because I know what I'm talking about. Science in the main, the way it's been told to us all, is a big fat load of misdirection and they know it.

To admit that everything is atmospheric pressure, would destroy one hell of a lot of the bull crap they fed us, so I'm not surprised it's hung onto like a stubborn limpet on a ships hull.

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn...

you don't force a lean on a bike. You turn the wheel slightly in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn and that causes the bottom of the bike to move out from under the top away from the direction of lean and turning you in the direction you wish to go.

If you try to turn by forcing a lean with your body you'll simply curve gently with an upright bike and might make a circle in the space of a mile or so if you're lucky.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 06:14:19 AM

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn...

you don't force a lean on a bike. You turn the wheel slightly in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn and that causes the bottom of the bike to move out from under the top away from the direction of lean and turning you in the direction you wish to go.

If you try to turn by forcing a lean with your body you'll simply curve gently with an upright bike and might make a circle in the space of a mile or so if you're lucky.

Have a word will you, spank. Of course you turn your wheel but you still have to force a lean. Go and take a look at high speed bike racing.

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:21:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 06:14:19 AM

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn...

you don't force a lean on a bike. You turn the wheel slightly in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn and that causes the bottom of the bike to move out from under the top away from the direction of lean and turning you in the direction you wish to go.

If you try to turn by forcing a lean with your body you'll simply curve gently with an upright bike and might make a circle in the space of a mile or so if you're lucky.

Have a word will you, spank. Of course you turn your wheel but you still have to force a lean. Go and take a look at high speed bike racing.

I ride a bike.

When you turn you don't move the top of a bike towards the direction of turn, you move the bottom of the bike in the other direction.


Racers lean because they want to move the bikes centre of mass towards the turn so that the bike itself can be that little bit more upright for any given amount of turn. It's not necessary to hang off to turn the bike, it only has small benefit but small benefit is what racing is all about.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:25:01 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:21:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 06:14:19 AM

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn...

you don't force a lean on a bike. You turn the wheel slightly in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn and that causes the bottom of the bike to move out from under the top away from the direction of lean and turning you in the direction you wish to go.

If you try to turn by forcing a lean with your body you'll simply curve gently with an upright bike and might make a circle in the space of a mile or so if you're lucky.

Have a word will you, spank. Of course you turn your wheel but you still have to force a lean. Go and take a look at high speed bike racing.

I ride a bike.

When you turn you don't move the top of a bike towards the direction of turn, you move the bottom of the bike in the other direction.


Racers lean because they want to move the bikes centre of mass towards the turn so that the bike itself can be that little bit more upright for any given amount of turn. It's not necessary to hang off to turn the bike, it only has small benefit but small benefit is what racing is all about.

Spank:
It's very necessary to hang off the bike if you are going at those speeds. At slower speeds, of course you don't lean much.
It all depends on the speed and the turn or bend you are going towards.
Either way, to stay on the bike and turn, you have to balance the air pressure.

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:30:34 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:25:01 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:21:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 06:14:19 AM

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn...

you don't force a lean on a bike. You turn the wheel slightly in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn and that causes the bottom of the bike to move out from under the top away from the direction of lean and turning you in the direction you wish to go.

If you try to turn by forcing a lean with your body you'll simply curve gently with an upright bike and might make a circle in the space of a mile or so if you're lucky.

Have a word will you, spank. Of course you turn your wheel but you still have to force a lean. Go and take a look at high speed bike racing.

I ride a bike.

When you turn you don't move the top of a bike towards the direction of turn, you move the bottom of the bike in the other direction.


Racers lean because they want to move the bikes centre of mass towards the turn so that the bike itself can be that little bit more upright for any given amount of turn. It's not necessary to hang off to turn the bike, it only has small benefit but small benefit is what racing is all about.

Spank:
It's very necessary to hang off the bike if you are going at those speeds. At slower speeds, of course you don't lean much.
It all depends on the speed and the turn or bend you are going towards.
Either way, to stay on the bike and turn, you have to balance the air pressure.

you can have the bike at the exact same angle that bike racers do and not hang off at all, you simply won't turn quite as much for that angle of the bike.

That's all the leaning does, it increases the rate of turn for the angle. I can personally verify that up to speeds of 120mph.

when you turn a bike it's quite simple. You turn the wheel in the wrong direction. The bottom of the bike moves in that direction and the top of the bike stays roughly where it is except it begins to drop down closer to the floor. This has the effect of placing the side of the wheel on the road which causes it to curve similar to the way a cone rolls in a curve.

Once you reach the desired angle of bike lean (and thus the desired curve)you straighten the wheel again and maintain that angle until the corner changes where you move the wheel either back under the bike or further out straightening the bike out or cornering harder.

None of that requires you to hang off the bike and some of the biggest nutters I know never shift a jot in the seat.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:42:41 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:30:34 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:25:01 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:21:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 06:14:19 AM

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn...

you don't force a lean on a bike. You turn the wheel slightly in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn and that causes the bottom of the bike to move out from under the top away from the direction of lean and turning you in the direction you wish to go.

If you try to turn by forcing a lean with your body you'll simply curve gently with an upright bike and might make a circle in the space of a mile or so if you're lucky.

Have a word will you, spank. Of course you turn your wheel but you still have to force a lean. Go and take a look at high speed bike racing.

I ride a bike.

When you turn you don't move the top of a bike towards the direction of turn, you move the bottom of the bike in the other direction.


Racers lean because they want to move the bikes centre of mass towards the turn so that the bike itself can be that little bit more upright for any given amount of turn. It's not necessary to hang off to turn the bike, it only has small benefit but small benefit is what racing is all about.

Spank:
It's very necessary to hang off the bike if you are going at those speeds. At slower speeds, of course you don't lean much.
It all depends on the speed and the turn or bend you are going towards.
Either way, to stay on the bike and turn, you have to balance the air pressure.

you can have the bike at the exact same angle that bike racers do and not hang off at all, you simply won't turn quite as much for that angle of the bike.

That's all the leaning does, it increases the rate of turn for the angle. I can personally verify that up to speeds of 120mph.

when you turn a bike it's quite simple. You turn the wheel in the wrong direction. The bottom of the bike moves in that direction and the top of the bike stays roughly where it is except it begins to drop down closer to the floor. This has the effect of placing the side of the wheel on the road which causes it to curve similar to the way a cone rolls in a curve.

Once you reach the desired angle of bike lean (and thus the desired curve)you straighten the wheel again and maintain that angle until the corner changes where you move the wheel either back under the bike or further out straightening the bike out or cornering harder.

None of that requires you to hang off the bike and some of the biggest nutters I know never shift a jot in the seat.

It's pointless arguing this as it's solving nothing. All I'll say is, it's all down to the density of the person on the bike as to how far they have to lean, let's leave it at that.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:25:01 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:21:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 06:14:19 AM

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn...

you don't force a lean on a bike. You turn the wheel slightly in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn and that causes the bottom of the bike to move out from under the top away from the direction of lean and turning you in the direction you wish to go.

If you try to turn by forcing a lean with your body you'll simply curve gently with an upright bike and might make a circle in the space of a mile or so if you're lucky.

Have a word will you, spank. Of course you turn your wheel but you still have to force a lean. Go and take a look at high speed bike racing.

I ride a bike.

When you turn you don't move the top of a bike towards the direction of turn, you move the bottom of the bike in the other direction.


Racers lean because they want to move the bikes centre of mass towards the turn so that the bike itself can be that little bit more upright for any given amount of turn. It's not necessary to hang off to turn the bike, it only has small benefit but small benefit is what racing is all about.

For simplicity - I'm just quoting this and not everything else to stay on the current thread.

So, what Scepti is saying is that I need to be travelling faster than 10mph to stop me falling into the corner so that there is enough volume of air passing to provide enough pressure to hold my weight and the weight of the bike up during a lean - correct me if I am wrong please.

Now, like Spank says, when I ride on a track, I tend to try and get off the bike as much as I can in a corner. Given my understanding of the world, this has the effect of moving the centre of gravity and allows me to lean the bike less / stand the bike up earlier, staying on the fat part of the tire and accelerating earlier. (As a side, if when coming out of a corner I were to let the back tire spin up then shut the power off immediately I would experience a high side. We should talk about the physics of that at some point)

I can't see how in a denpressure world the position of my body would have any impact on my cornering ability or the forces I feel during a turn. In a denpressure world, when I move my body my weight remains the same. Without gravity, there is no centre of gravity to move, so why does getting off the bike allow me to corner so much faster? What forces are changing between on and off the bike?

You are forgetting about your weight against the force of the air pressure acting against it.

You are forgetting about your weight against the force of the air pressure acting against it.

But my weight remains exactly the same no matter where I am on the bike. I could be on the right hand side of the bike in a left hand turn - my overall weight (bike and body) would remain the same and therefore the pressure required to hold it up would not change.

If I move my body to the inside of a turn I can either 1) Lean the bike less for a given corner speed or 2) Go faster around the corner. If I don't lean, I either 1) won't turn 2) won't carry enough speed and low side.

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:52:10 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:42:41 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:30:34 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:25:01 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:21:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 06:14:19 AM

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn...

you don't force a lean on a bike. You turn the wheel slightly in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn and that causes the bottom of the bike to move out from under the top away from the direction of lean and turning you in the direction you wish to go.

If you try to turn by forcing a lean with your body you'll simply curve gently with an upright bike and might make a circle in the space of a mile or so if you're lucky.

Have a word will you, spank. Of course you turn your wheel but you still have to force a lean. Go and take a look at high speed bike racing.

I ride a bike.

When you turn you don't move the top of a bike towards the direction of turn, you move the bottom of the bike in the other direction.


Racers lean because they want to move the bikes centre of mass towards the turn so that the bike itself can be that little bit more upright for any given amount of turn. It's not necessary to hang off to turn the bike, it only has small benefit but small benefit is what racing is all about.

Spank:
It's very necessary to hang off the bike if you are going at those speeds. At slower speeds, of course you don't lean much.
It all depends on the speed and the turn or bend you are going towards.
Either way, to stay on the bike and turn, you have to balance the air pressure.

you can have the bike at the exact same angle that bike racers do and not hang off at all, you simply won't turn quite as much for that angle of the bike.

That's all the leaning does, it increases the rate of turn for the angle. I can personally verify that up to speeds of 120mph.

when you turn a bike it's quite simple. You turn the wheel in the wrong direction. The bottom of the bike moves in that direction and the top of the bike stays roughly where it is except it begins to drop down closer to the floor. This has the effect of placing the side of the wheel on the road which causes it to curve similar to the way a cone rolls in a curve.

Once you reach the desired angle of bike lean (and thus the desired curve)you straighten the wheel again and maintain that angle until the corner changes where you move the wheel either back under the bike or further out straightening the bike out or cornering harder.

None of that requires you to hang off the bike and some of the biggest nutters I know never shift a jot in the seat.

It's pointless arguing this as it's solving nothing. All I'll say is, it's all down to the density of the person on the bike as to how far they have to lean, let's leave it at that.

I'm just telling you exactly how a bike corners.

Let me ask you something though. Two people on the same bike on the same corner. One massively fat, one very thin. which does your theory predict has to lean the bike more and which less?

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 08:04:20 AM

You are forgetting about your weight against the force of the air pressure acting against it.

But my weight remains exactly the same no matter where I am on the bike. I could be on the right hand side of the bike in a left hand turn - my overall weight (bike and body) would remain the same and therefore the pressure required to hold it up would not change.

If I move my body to the inside of a turn I can either 1) Lean the bike less for a given corner speed or 2) Go faster around the corner. If I don't lean, I either 1) won't turn 2) won't carry enough speed and low side.

Ok, this is how it works.

Let's assume the track you are going round, is circular.
You set off on your bike at 20 mph for the first lap. Let's assume you have to stay on the outside of the track....you cannot cut inside, ok.
Your second lap, you decide to go 50 mph and you find that you have to lean the bike a bit more.
Next lap you go 100 mph and now you are leaning the bike more and so on the faster you go until that particular circuit cannot allow you to go any faster without your bike losing grip on the surface.

It's no different to a child on a circular swing carousel. If the child goes slowly around, the swing stays fairly  low to the ground.
Speed it up and the child soon ends up spinning around horizontally. It's really no different, except for the way things appear. The truth is, they are all the product of exactly the same thing which is denpressure.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:59:35 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:52:10 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:42:41 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:30:34 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:25:01 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:21:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 06:14:19 AM

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn...

you don't force a lean on a bike. You turn the wheel slightly in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn and that causes the bottom of the bike to move out from under the top away from the direction of lean and turning you in the direction you wish to go.

If you try to turn by forcing a lean with your body you'll simply curve gently with an upright bike and might make a circle in the space of a mile or so if you're lucky.

Have a word will you, spank. Of course you turn your wheel but you still have to force a lean. Go and take a look at high speed bike racing.

I ride a bike.

When you turn you don't move the top of a bike towards the direction of turn, you move the bottom of the bike in the other direction.


Racers lean because they want to move the bikes centre of mass towards the turn so that the bike itself can be that little bit more upright for any given amount of turn. It's not necessary to hang off to turn the bike, it only has small benefit but small benefit is what racing is all about.

Spank:
It's very necessary to hang off the bike if you are going at those speeds. At slower speeds, of course you don't lean much.
It all depends on the speed and the turn or bend you are going towards.
Either way, to stay on the bike and turn, you have to balance the air pressure.

you can have the bike at the exact same angle that bike racers do and not hang off at all, you simply won't turn quite as much for that angle of the bike.

That's all the leaning does, it increases the rate of turn for the angle. I can personally verify that up to speeds of 120mph.

when you turn a bike it's quite simple. You turn the wheel in the wrong direction. The bottom of the bike moves in that direction and the top of the bike stays roughly where it is except it begins to drop down closer to the floor. This has the effect of placing the side of the wheel on the road which causes it to curve similar to the way a cone rolls in a curve.

Once you reach the desired angle of bike lean (and thus the desired curve)you straighten the wheel again and maintain that angle until the corner changes where you move the wheel either back under the bike or further out straightening the bike out or cornering harder.

None of that requires you to hang off the bike and some of the biggest nutters I know never shift a jot in the seat.

It's pointless arguing this as it's solving nothing. All I'll say is, it's all down to the density of the person on the bike as to how far they have to lean, let's leave it at that.

I'm just telling you exactly how a bike corners.

Let me ask you something though. Two people on the same bike on the same corner. One massively fat, one very thin. which does your theory predict has to lean the bike more and which less?

It depends on the sharpness of the corner and the speed at which it's took.
The speed of the bike going around it will determine if one or both of the riders have to lean.

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 08:24:40 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:59:35 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:52:10 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:42:41 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:30:34 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 07:25:01 AM

Quote from: Spank86 on January 10, 2014, 07:21:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 06:14:19 AM

The very fact that you had to lean your bike (by your own force) into a turn...

you don't force a lean on a bike. You turn the wheel slightly in the opposite direction from the way you want to turn and that causes the bottom of the bike to move out from under the top away from the direction of lean and turning you in the direction you wish to go.

If you try to turn by forcing a lean with your body you'll simply curve gently with an upright bike and might make a circle in the space of a mile or so if you're lucky.

Have a word will you, spank. Of course you turn your wheel but you still have to force a lean. Go and take a look at high speed bike racing.

I ride a bike.

When you turn you don't move the top of a bike towards the direction of turn, you move the bottom of the bike in the other direction.


Racers lean because they want to move the bikes centre of mass towards the turn so that the bike itself can be that little bit more upright for any given amount of turn. It's not necessary to hang off to turn the bike, it only has small benefit but small benefit is what racing is all about.

Spank:
It's very necessary to hang off the bike if you are going at those speeds. At slower speeds, of course you don't lean much.
It all depends on the speed and the turn or bend you are going towards.
Either way, to stay on the bike and turn, you have to balance the air pressure.

you can have the bike at the exact same angle that bike racers do and not hang off at all, you simply won't turn quite as much for that angle of the bike.

That's all the leaning does, it increases the rate of turn for the angle. I can personally verify that up to speeds of 120mph.

when you turn a bike it's quite simple. You turn the wheel in the wrong direction. The bottom of the bike moves in that direction and the top of the bike stays roughly where it is except it begins to drop down closer to the floor. This has the effect of placing the side of the wheel on the road which causes it to curve similar to the way a cone rolls in a curve.

Once you reach the desired angle of bike lean (and thus the desired curve)you straighten the wheel again and maintain that angle until the corner changes where you move the wheel either back under the bike or further out straightening the bike out or cornering harder.

None of that requires you to hang off the bike and some of the biggest nutters I know never shift a jot in the seat.

It's pointless arguing this as it's solving nothing. All I'll say is, it's all down to the density of the person on the bike as to how far they have to lean, let's leave it at that.

I'm just telling you exactly how a bike corners.

Let me ask you something though. Two people on the same bike on the same corner. One massively fat, one very thin. which does your theory predict has to lean the bike more and which less?

It depends on the sharpness of the corner and the speed at which it's took.
The speed of the bike going around it will determine if one or both of the riders have to lean.

same bike, same speed, same corner.

Te only difference is the rider.

Which bike has to lean over more. Which one is further from vertical when going round the corner.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 08:15:18 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 08:04:20 AM

You are forgetting about your weight against the force of the air pressure acting against it.

But my weight remains exactly the same no matter where I am on the bike. I could be on the right hand side of the bike in a left hand turn - my overall weight (bike and body) would remain the same and therefore the pressure required to hold it up would not change.

If I move my body to the inside of a turn I can either 1) Lean the bike less for a given corner speed or 2) Go faster around the corner. If I don't lean, I either 1) won't turn 2) won't carry enough speed and low side.

Ok, this is how it works.

Let's assume the track you are going round, is circular.
You set off on your bike at 20 mph for the first lap. Let's assume you have to stay on the outside of the track....you cannot cut inside, ok.
Your second lap, you decide to go 50 mph and you find that you have to lean the bike a bit more.
Next lap you go 100 mph and now you are leaning the bike more and so on the faster you go until that particular circuit cannot allow you to go any faster without your bike losing grip on the surface.

It's no different to a child on a circular swing carousel. If the child goes slowly around, the swing stays fairly  low to the ground.
Speed it up and the child soon ends up spinning around horizontally. It's really no different, except for the way things appear. The truth is, they are all the product of exactly the same thing which is denpressure.

Sorry - but saying it is because it is just doesn't work. You completely missed the point of the question. Why does changing the position of my body change what I can do in the corner if the only forces acting are weight (density) vs' air pressure.

I can see that by moving, I move my centre of gravity.

I can't see how moving has any effect on density.

I'm going to change the topic to include something else here if you don't mind (you did say mention anything and you would explain it). How do laboratory centrifuges that separate out various elements suspended in liquids work. The air at the top of the test tube may become compressed under speed but this would affect the liquid, not the heavier elements suspended in the water.

If both people are on the same bike they would naturally lean the same way,what are you getting at?

If both people are on the same bike they would naturally lean the same way,what are you getting at?

Well I don't know what the answer to this is yet btw.

I just want to know which your theory predicts would need a greater angle of bike lean.

a fat person or a thin person not on the bike at the same time, at different times.

everything is equal except the rider.

I'd also like to know which would require more bike lean a person with a backpack full of polystyrene or with a  backpack full of bricks (same size backpack only the weight has changed).

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 08:25:45 AM

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 08:15:18 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 08:04:20 AM

You are forgetting about your weight against the force of the air pressure acting against it.

But my weight remains exactly the same no matter where I am on the bike. I could be on the right hand side of the bike in a left hand turn - my overall weight (bike and body) would remain the same and therefore the pressure required to hold it up would not change.

If I move my body to the inside of a turn I can either 1) Lean the bike less for a given corner speed or 2) Go faster around the corner. If I don't lean, I either 1) won't turn 2) won't carry enough speed and low side.

Ok, this is how it works.

Let's assume the track you are going round, is circular.
You set off on your bike at 20 mph for the first lap. Let's assume you have to stay on the outside of the track....you cannot cut inside, ok.
Your second lap, you decide to go 50 mph and you find that you have to lean the bike a bit more.
Next lap you go 100 mph and now you are leaning the bike more and so on the faster you go until that particular circuit cannot allow you to go any faster without your bike losing grip on the surface.

It's no different to a child on a circular swing carousel. If the child goes slowly around, the swing stays fairly  low to the ground.
Speed it up and the child soon ends up spinning around horizontally. It's really no different, except for the way things appear. The truth is, they are all the product of exactly the same thing which is denpressure.

Sorry - but saying it is because it is just doesn't work. You completely missed the point of the question. Why does changing the position of my body change what I can do in the corner if the only forces acting are weight (density) vs' air pressure.

I can see that by moving, I move my centre of gravity.

I can't see how moving has any effect on density.

I'm going to change the topic to include something else here if you don't mind (you did say mention anything and you would explain it). How do laboratory centrifuges that separate out various elements suspended in liquids work. The air at the top of the test tube may become compressed under speed but this would affect the liquid, not the heavier elements suspended in the water.

Pressure versus the density of the items in the water, just like in the air.
You are going to have to use something else because this question is only going to confuse ore than clarify anything.
Choose something that you are convinced is gravity and inertia that people can identify with and we will go from there.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 08:55:02 AM

If both people are on the same bike they would naturally lean the same way,what are you getting at?

Well I don't know what the answer to this is yet btw.

I just want to know which your theory predicts would need a greater angle of bike lean.

a fat person or a thin person not on the bike at the same time, at different times.

everything is equal except the rider.

I'd also like to know which would require more bike lean a person with a backpack full of polystyrene or with a  backpack full of bricks (same size backpack only the weight has changed).

Oh right, I do apologise, I thought you meant two people on the same bike as in pillion.

Ok, the thin person would have to lean more than the fat person.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 08:47:21 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 08:25:45 AM

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 08:15:18 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 08:04:20 AM

You are forgetting about your weight against the force of the air pressure acting against it.

But my weight remains exactly the same no matter where I am on the bike. I could be on the right hand side of the bike in a left hand turn - my overall weight (bike and body) would remain the same and therefore the pressure required to hold it up would not change.

If I move my body to the inside of a turn I can either 1) Lean the bike less for a given corner speed or 2) Go faster around the corner. If I don't lean, I either 1) won't turn 2) won't carry enough speed and low side.

Ok, this is how it works.

Let's assume the track you are going round, is circular.
You set off on your bike at 20 mph for the first lap. Let's assume you have to stay on the outside of the track....you cannot cut inside, ok.
Your second lap, you decide to go 50 mph and you find that you have to lean the bike a bit more.
Next lap you go 100 mph and now you are leaning the bike more and so on the faster you go until that particular circuit cannot allow you to go any faster without your bike losing grip on the surface.

It's no different to a child on a circular swing carousel. If the child goes slowly around, the swing stays fairly  low to the ground.
Speed it up and the child soon ends up spinning around horizontally. It's really no different, except for the way things appear. The truth is, they are all the product of exactly the same thing which is denpressure.

Sorry - but saying it is because it is just doesn't work. You completely missed the point of the question. Why does changing the position of my body change what I can do in the corner if the only forces acting are weight (density) vs' air pressure.

I can see that by moving, I move my centre of gravity.

I can't see how moving has any effect on density.

I'm going to change the topic to include something else here if you don't mind (you did say mention anything and you would explain it). How do laboratory centrifuges that separate out various elements suspended in liquids work. The air at the top of the test tube may become compressed under speed but this would affect the liquid, not the heavier elements suspended in the water.

Pressure versus the density of the items in the water, just like in the air.
You are going to have to use something else because this question is only going to confuse ore than clarify anything.
Choose something that you are convinced is gravity and inertia that people can identify with and we will go from there.

I'll stick with the Centrifuge. I think Spank has the bike all but sown up.

So, the centrifuge spins, the air in the test tube is pushed into the top of the water, but what makes the various sediments in the water separate? Why do the heavier sediments move to the bottom of the test tube. (Before we go on though, don't forget, water for all intents and purposed is pretty much incompressible, certainly when compared to air)

I'll stick with the Centrifuge. I think Spank has the bike all but sown up.

So, the centrifuge spins, the air in the test tube is pushed into the top of the water, but what makes the various sediments in the water separate? Why do the heavier sediments move to the bottom of the test tube. (Before we go on though, don't forget, water for all intents and purposed is pretty much incompressible, certainly when compared to air)

Friction is causing the heavier elements to move to the outside drop. It's like sifting or agitating.
I don't really know what else to say. All you are doing it creating a heavier pressure to the outside and leaving the inside with low pressure.

Like I said, you need to make things easier because this is just going to get nowhere.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 09:06:36 AM

I'll stick with the Centrifuge. I think Spank has the bike all but sown up.

So, the centrifuge spins, the air in the test tube is pushed into the top of the water, but what makes the various sediments in the water separate? Why do the heavier sediments move to the bottom of the test tube. (Before we go on though, don't forget, water for all intents and purposed is pretty much incompressible, certainly when compared to air)

Friction is causing the heavier elements to move to the outside drop. It's like sifting or agitating.
I don't really know what else to say. All you are doing it creating a heavier pressure to the outside and leaving the inside with low pressure.

Like I said, you need to make things easier because this is just going to get nowhere.

Friction? Friction against what and how?

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 09:25:09 AM

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 09:06:36 AM

I'll stick with the Centrifuge. I think Spank has the bike all but sown up.

So, the centrifuge spins, the air in the test tube is pushed into the top of the water, but what makes the various sediments in the water separate? Why do the heavier sediments move to the bottom of the test tube. (Before we go on though, don't forget, water for all intents and purposed is pretty much incompressible, certainly when compared to air)

Friction is causing the heavier elements to move to the outside drop. It's like sifting or agitating.
I don't really know what else to say. All you are doing it creating a heavier pressure to the outside and leaving the inside with low pressure.

Like I said, you need to make things easier because this is just going to get nowhere.

Friction? Friction against what and how?

If you have to ask that, then what chance have a i got in explaining anything to you.
I'll give it a quick go and then If you don't grasp it. I'll assume you are simply trying to trip me up rather than look for answers.

Everything you do on earth is the result of friction. Nothing moves without it. Walking in your own home, you are under friction.
The reason why you feel warm, is friction.
Separating gold from sediment is friction which also covers your question in a basic way.

Either choose another example...one that people who are viewing can put their minds to or don't bother me.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 09:30:38 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 10, 2014, 09:25:09 AM

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 09:06:36 AM

I'll stick with the Centrifuge. I think Spank has the bike all but sown up.

So, the centrifuge spins, the air in the test tube is pushed into the top of the water, but what makes the various sediments in the water separate? Why do the heavier sediments move to the bottom of the test tube. (Before we go on though, don't forget, water for all intents and purposed is pretty much incompressible, certainly when compared to air)

Friction is causing the heavier elements to move to the outside drop. It's like sifting or agitating.
I don't really know what else to say. All you are doing it creating a heavier pressure to the outside and leaving the inside with low pressure.

Like I said, you need to make things easier because this is just going to get nowhere.

Friction? Friction against what and how?

If you have to ask that, then what chance have a i got in explaining anything to you.
I'll give it a quick go and then If you don't grasp it. I'll assume you are simply trying to trip me up rather than look for answers.

Everything you do on earth is the result of friction. Nothing moves without it. Walking in your own home, you are under friction.
The reason why you feel warm, is friction.
Separating gold from sediment is friction which also covers your question in a basic way.

Either choose another example...one that people who are viewing can put their minds to or don't bother me.

Hey - you said ask the questions - I am doing just that. So, I'm willing to listen some more to the friction idea.

So lets define friction. Friction is the resistance between one object and another when they move over each other. Can we agree on that first.

If so, then again, how does friction play a part in sedimentation? What force causes one particle to move over another creating friction?

Hey - you said ask the questions - I am doing just that. So, I'm willing to listen some more to the friction idea.

Ask as many question as you want. I have no problem with that. But when you ask and I answer, I at least expect you to think it over seriously. Most people just ask the questions and resort to calling tin foil when they don't get the answers they want to hear. If you are one of those then you picked on the wrong person. If not, then fair enough. Follow your own mind. Do not follow the masses.

So lets define friction. Friction is the resistance between one object and another when they move over each other. Can we agree on that first.

Yes we can.

If so, then again, how does friction play a part in sedimentation? What force causes one particle to move over another creating friction?

To answer this, I will use snooker balls and ping pong balls.
I fill a room half full with ping pong balls and then I pour in another quarter of it with snooker balls.
Ok, we know that the snooker balls will rest on the ping pong balls, so now we have density on top of less density. How do we separate them so that the snooker balls go to the bottom and the ping pong balls to the top.
Easy! we vibrate the room and over time the snooker balls will agitate their mass through the less dense ping pong balls and push them out of the way by friction until they are on the bottom.
Do you agree with this?

Easy! we vibrate the room and over time the snooker balls will agitate their mass through the less dense ping pong balls and push them out of the way by friction until they are on the bottom.
Do you agree with this?

Sorry but no - i disagree.

In a test tube, the sediment is suspended in water. The centrifuge spins, the heavier elements move to the bottom of the tube and so on. Air pressure cannot be the force pushing the sediment down - the water won't allow this. So, what force is causing the sediment to move to the bottom of the test tube?

Remember, we agreed friction is the result of two objects passing over each other a creating friction so unless there is movement in the first place, there can be no friction.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 09:43:32 AM

Hey - you said ask the questions - I am doing just that. So, I'm willing to listen some more to the friction idea.

Ask as many question as you want. I have no problem with that. But when you ask and I answer, I at least expect you to think it over seriously. Most people just ask the questions and resort to calling tin foil when they don't get the answers they want to hear. If you are one of those then you picked on the wrong person. If not, then fair enough. Follow your own mind. Do not follow the masses.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 09:43:32 AM

So lets define friction. Friction is the resistance between one object and another when they move over each other. Can we agree on that first.

Yes we can.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on January 10, 2014, 09:43:32 AM

If so, then again, how does friction play a part in sedimentation? What force causes one particle to move over another creating friction?

To answer this, I will use snooker balls and ping pong balls.
I fill a room half full with ping pong balls and then I pour in another quarter of it with snooker balls.
Ok, we know that the snooker balls will rest on the ping pong balls, so now we have density on top of less density. How do we separate them so that the snooker balls go to the bottom and the ping pong balls to the top.
Easy! we vibrate the room and over time the snooker balls will agitate their mass through the less dense ping pong balls and push them out of the way by friction until they are on the bottom.
Do you agree with this?

Why do the snooker balls go to the bottom, and not sideways or up?