End of the Monopole Model

One of the FE models is that of a disk centered around the North Pole, with "Antarctica" circling the circumference as the Ice Wall.

The FE explanation for sunsets is that the sun gets far enough away such that it appears to sink into the horizon and/or it's light can no longer reach us. Since sunrise and sunsets happen at very predictable times then this distance needs to be constant. That is, sunsets are hardly dependent on atmospheric conditions if they're dependent on that at all.

However, if you actually map out sunrise and sunsets on this single-poled model, you find that this distance changes dramatically throughout a year. For me it changes by a whole 13.8% of the distance between the north pole and the equator!

Below you can see the to-scale diagram of this. The red is during the summer solstice, the blue during an equinox, and the green during the winter solstice. The dotted lines represent the distance from the sun to me during that time. Notice how they're all different sizes?

Thus, because this model is inconsistent with FE arguments (mainly sunset is caused by distance), it can be safely thrown into the garbage.

I concur. Acknowledgement by FE?

Hi Alex,

I am not certain that I can read your drawing. Maybe you can enlighten me a bit more with a simple diagram containing for example sunset/sunrise in one place on a given day.

Nice diagram Alex.

I notice you touch on retrograde motion in the bi-polar thread but it should also be observed in the mono-pole model.

Hi Alex,

I am not certain that I can read your drawing. Maybe you can enlighten me a bit more with a simple diagram containing for example sunset/sunrise in one place on a given day.

It's really three diagrams in one--One red, one blue, and one green. Each one represents sunrise and sunset at a different time of year. Red is the summer solstice, blue is the equinox, and green is the winter solstice. The solid circles are the sun's path around the Earth at the given time (red is the Tropic of Cancer, blue is the equator, green is the Tropic of Capricorn). The angles in the middle, about the North Pole, indicate the hours of daylight visible from my location for each of the colors.

The dotted circles indicate the distance from me to the sunrise/sunset for each of the times. For the 'sunset is due to distance' theory to work with this model, each color of dotted circle should be identical every other one.

AW theory accounts for this.

Threads with titles like this one are immensely common on this forum. I don't think I've ever seen any of them end anything. Just saying.

AW theory accounts for this.

Threads with titles like this one are immensely common on this forum. I don't think I've ever seen any of them end anything. Just saying.

What's the AW theory? I'm genuinely curious, by the way. Can you link to it or something?

AW theory accounts for this.

Threads with titles like this one are immensely common on this forum. I don't think I've ever seen any of them end anything. Just saying.

Then I suppose it is appropriate for Alex to say that it "can" be thrown in the garbage. Admittedly, it won't but that's what the FES is all about isn't it? Or rather, all conspiracy theories. People could be going on commercial trips to the moon and able to see the landing sites for themselves and there would still be deniers of the moon landing. If these commercial trips ever happened and there was proof the Earth was round that anybody could see for themself I wouldn't be surprised to find that the FES is still going and still saying the Earth is flat.

So ... no AW Theory? Not even what 'AW' even means?

For lack of any other explanation, I'm hijacking the term to mean "Always Wallowing" as a way to explain the nature of the monopole model.

So ... no AW Theory? Not even what 'AW' even means?

For lack of any other explanation, I'm hijacking the term to mean "Always Wallowing" as a way to explain the nature of the monopole model.

AW=Aetheric Wind

...and is this not expected? Days ARE longer in the summer and shorter in the winter (when the sun is farther away).

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on September 06, 2013, 09:11:09 AM

So ... no AW Theory? Not even what 'AW' even means?

For lack of any other explanation, I'm hijacking the term to mean "Always Wallowing" as a way to explain the nature of the monopole model.

AW=Aetheric Wind

Ah, okay. How does the Wind make light able to travel farther through the opaque atmosphere?

...and is this not expected? Days ARE longer in the summer and shorter in the winter (when the sun is farther away).

Yes, and my diagram covers that (note the different angles for which the sun is visible). The problem arises from the fact that in the winter the sun rises and sets much farther away than it does in the summer. Since sunrise and sunset are supposedly caused by the sun passing a certain distance from the observer, that distance should always be the same.

Yes, and my diagram covers that (note the different angles for which the sun is visible). The problem arises from the fact that in the winter the sun rises and sets much farther away than it does in the summer. Since sunrise and sunset are supposedly caused by the sun passing a certain distance from the observer, that distance should always be the same.

Correct, and that's why on the equator you always have the same amount of daylight, whereas the northern and southern hemispheres experience seasons.

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on September 06, 2013, 09:30:56 AM

Yes, and my diagram covers that (note the different angles for which the sun is visible). The problem arises from the fact that in the winter the sun rises and sets much farther away than it does in the summer. Since sunrise and sunset are supposedly caused by the sun passing a certain distance from the observer, that distance should always be the same.

Correct, and that's why on the equator you always have the same amount of daylight, whereas the northern and southern hemispheres experience seasons.

If you agree that sunrise and sunset are caused by distance, than you have to throw away the monopole model of the Earth because it says that, during the winter, I can see the sun from farther away than I can in the summer.

EDIT: The monopole model says that, in the winter, I'm able to see the sun when it's gone 13.8% the distance from the north pole to the equator farther than the point at which it would have set during the summer.

Using the monopole map itself, that's about the same distance as between Jackson, Mississippi and Tomahawk, Wisconsin.

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on September 06, 2013, 10:54:38 AM

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on September 06, 2013, 09:30:56 AM

Yes, and my diagram covers that (note the different angles for which the sun is visible). The problem arises from the fact that in the winter the sun rises and sets much farther away than it does in the summer. Since sunrise and sunset are supposedly caused by the sun passing a certain distance from the observer, that distance should always be the same.

Correct, and that's why on the equator you always have the same amount of daylight, whereas the northern and southern hemispheres experience seasons.

If you agree that sunrise and sunset are caused by distance, than you have to throw away the monopole model of the Earth because it says that, during the winter, I can see the sun from farther away than I can in the summer.

I still don't know where you're getting that, but it's irrelevant as the Sun could change altitude throughout the year.

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on September 06, 2013, 10:57:09 AM

If you agree that sunrise and sunset are caused by distance, than you have to throw away the monopole model of the Earth because it says that, during the winter, I can see the sun from farther away than I can in the summer.

I still don't know where you're getting that

Check the diagram

the Sun could change altitude throughout the year.

Hmm, that's a good point. That does mean that, for me, the sun would have to change altitudes to exactly counteract its farther distance, meaning it would need to get lower to the ground as it got farther away so that the light would travel the same distance.

Ignoring the glaring problems this would cause with Rowbotham's Perspective (closer to the ground means the sun should set at an even closer distance!), for me, the sun would have to change altitudes such that:
With each unit of distance being equal to 1/100th of the distance between the North Pole and the Equator.

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on September 06, 2013, 11:11:25 AM

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on September 06, 2013, 10:57:09 AM

If you agree that sunrise and sunset are caused by distance, than you have to throw away the monopole model of the Earth because it says that, during the winter, I can see the sun from farther away than I can in the summer.

I still don't know where you're getting that

Check the diagram

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on September 06, 2013, 11:11:25 AM

the Sun could change altitude throughout the year.

Hmm, that's a good point. That does mean that, for me, the sun would have to change altitudes to exactly counteract its farther distance, meaning it would need to get lower to the ground as it got farther away so that the light would travel the same distance.

Ignoring the glaring problems this would cause with Rowbotham's Perspective (closer to the ground means the sun should set at an even closer distance!), for me, the sun would have to change altitudes such that:

A_winter = sqrt(3150.39 - A_summer²)

With each unit of distance being equal to 1/100th of the distance between the North Pole and the Equator.

And that would only work for one location on earth. What happens for someone 90° of longitude further around the earth? The sun must maintain a constant altitude to give consistent observations.

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on September 06, 2013, 12:50:23 PM

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on September 06, 2013, 11:11:25 AM

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on September 06, 2013, 10:57:09 AM

If you agree that sunrise and sunset are caused by distance, than you have to throw away the monopole model of the Earth because it says that, during the winter, I can see the sun from farther away than I can in the summer.

I still don't know where you're getting that

Check the diagram

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on September 06, 2013, 11:11:25 AM

the Sun could change altitude throughout the year.

Hmm, that's a good point. That does mean that, for me, the sun would have to change altitudes to exactly counteract its farther distance, meaning it would need to get lower to the ground as it got farther away so that the light would travel the same distance.

Ignoring the glaring problems this would cause with Rowbotham's Perspective (closer to the ground means the sun should set at an even closer distance!), for me, the sun would have to change altitudes such that:

A_winter = sqrt(3150.39 - A_summer²)

With each unit of distance being equal to 1/100th of the distance between the North Pole and the Equator.

And that would only work for one location on earth. What happens for someone 90° of longitude further around the earth? The sun must maintain a constant altitude to give consistent observations.

Well, if you give me sunrise and sunset data (or can at least confirm that sun calculators work for your position) I can figure out how far you're seeing the sun differently between winter and summer, and how far it must change between the seasons.

Or, you can do it yourself. I assume you know trigonometry? If not, you can use the equations I provided in "Sunrise and Sunset in the wrong place" thread to calculate the horizontal distance between you and the point at which the sun would be at zenith for your datas.

Because Tom gets cranky when actual distance units are thrown in, I've taken to using arbitrary "Distance Units", with each DU equal to 1/100th of the distance from the North Pole to the equator. You can use 1/90th to make latitudes more relevant.

Thus, you can get the difference in distances from the sun. Then it's just Pythagorean theorem where the hypotenuses of both triangles must be identical, the horizontal leg must be the proportions you calculated above, and the height ... well, that's what you're trying to find out!

One of the FE models is that of a disk centered around the North Pole, with "Antarctica" circling the circumference as the Ice Wall.

The FE explanation for sunsets is that the sun gets far enough away such that it appears to sink into the horizon and/or it's light can no longer reach us. Since sunrise and sunsets happen at very predictable times then this distance needs to be constant. That is, sunsets are hardly dependent on atmospheric conditions if they're dependent on that at all.

However, if you actually map out sunrise and sunsets on this single-poled model, you find that this distance changes dramatically throughout a year. For me it changes by a whole 13.8% of the distance between the north pole and the equator!

Below you can see the to-scale diagram of this. The red is during the summer solstice, the blue during an equinox, and the green during the winter solstice. The dotted lines represent the distance from the sun to me during that time. Notice how they're all different sizes?

Thus, because this model is inconsistent with FE arguments (mainly sunset is caused by distance), it can be safely thrown into the garbage.

Im sad that the monopole map is the predominant map in FES. A ticket to a ferry circling Antarctica will prove it wrong