The Truth is mightier than the Facts!

"So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts," she has said.
http://www.npr.org/2013/09/01/217746942/texas-megachurch-at-center-of-measles-outbreak

I saw this and just had to post it.  It's right up there with the family who trusted God and went on a sailboat to Indonesia because they were "following God's will".  Nevermind none of them knew how to sail, got lost, almost starved to death, had their ship damaged by storms and a freighter, then were saved from death by a freighter heading for Chile.

There are so many problems with their thinking, including the reservation about vaccines because of autism in children.  Studies were done about this ages ago and there was not enough evidence to support any claim that vaccines caused autism in children.

Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand and said she's not worried "because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

I can only assume that she missed the verse about not putting God to the test, the one that Jesus specifically quoted during his temptation.

"You don't take the word of the guy that's trying to give the shot about what's good and what isn't," he said.

That's kind of the whole point of going to see the doctor, isn't it?

Quote

Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand and said she's not worried "because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

I can only assume that she missed the verse about not putting God to the test, the one that Jesus specifically quoted during his temptation.

Wow, you figured out that there are contradictions in the bible. You're streets ahead, saddam.

People had measles.  A shot was made for it.  Measles disappeared.  Then a guy who wasn't vaccinated went to where measles still existed and came back to a town full of people who are also not immunized. 

I think it's pretty obvious what a difference that shot makes to them now.

You won't believe the amount of people that told me I would get chicken pox even though I had been immunized. These people remind me of those people and it pisses me off. When it comes to medical knowledge, people are fucking retards.

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 01, 2013, 07:06:02 PM

Quote

Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand and said she's not worried "because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

I can only assume that she missed the verse about not putting God to the test, the one that Jesus specifically quoted during his temptation.

Wow, you figured out that there are contradictions in the bible. You're streets ahead, saddam.

It's not a contradiction.   The point is that the Bible doesn't endorse lying down and doing nothing and expecting God to do everything for you.

Quote from: spoon on September 01, 2013, 07:11:45 PM

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 01, 2013, 07:06:02 PM

Quote

Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand and said she's not worried "because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

I can only assume that she missed the verse about not putting God to the test, the one that Jesus specifically quoted during his temptation.

Wow, you figured out that there are contradictions in the bible. You're streets ahead, saddam.

It's not a contradiction.   The point is that the Bible doesn't endorse lying down and doing nothing and expecting God to do everything for you.

What is prayer then?

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 01, 2013, 07:17:39 PM

Quote from: spoon on September 01, 2013, 07:11:45 PM

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 01, 2013, 07:06:02 PM

Quote

Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand and said she's not worried "because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

I can only assume that she missed the verse about not putting God to the test, the one that Jesus specifically quoted during his temptation.

Wow, you figured out that there are contradictions in the bible. You're streets ahead, saddam.

It's not a contradiction.   The point is that the Bible doesn't endorse lying down and doing nothing and expecting God to do everything for you.

What is prayer then?

Asking God for a third hand, not the 2 you already have.

Quote from: spoon on September 01, 2013, 07:29:54 PM

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 01, 2013, 07:17:39 PM

Quote from: spoon on September 01, 2013, 07:11:45 PM

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 01, 2013, 07:06:02 PM

Quote

Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand and said she's not worried "because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

I can only assume that she missed the verse about not putting God to the test, the one that Jesus specifically quoted during his temptation.

Wow, you figured out that there are contradictions in the bible. You're streets ahead, saddam.

It's not a contradiction.   The point is that the Bible doesn't endorse lying down and doing nothing and expecting God to do everything for you.

What is prayer then?

Asking God for a third hand, not the 2 you already have.

Something like that.  There's a reason why mainstream Christianity doesn't recommend not going to the doctor, refusing vaccination, driving without a seatbelt, etc.

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 01, 2013, 07:17:39 PM

Quote from: spoon on September 01, 2013, 07:11:45 PM

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 01, 2013, 07:06:02 PM

Quote

Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand and said she's not worried "because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

I can only assume that she missed the verse about not putting God to the test, the one that Jesus specifically quoted during his temptation.

Wow, you figured out that there are contradictions in the bible. You're streets ahead, saddam.

It's not a contradiction.   The point is that the Bible doesn't endorse lying down and doing nothing and expecting God to do everything for you.

What is prayer then?

Not what you think it is, apparently.

Saddam's post implied that because the woman showed faith, she was putting god to the test. her faith is presumably based on prayer, ergo because she was praying, she was putting god to the test.

And as far as alchemist's definition goes, I disagree. When I was a christian, I always prayed when there were situations that I wanted to change but had no control over. Essentially, it was "god, I can't do anything, so you have to". Perhaps I was praying wrong, or perhaps all prayer is testing god, in which case, a biblical contradiction.

If you had no control over it you were asking for needed help, which was what I meant by 3rd hand.  Testing God would be deliberately creating a situation beyond someone's control to see if God steps in.  i. e. Jumping off a cliff with no bungee cord or parachute or glider and seeing if you survive an obviously lethal fall.

Quote from: spoon on September 01, 2013, 07:29:54 PM

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 01, 2013, 07:17:39 PM

Quote from: spoon on September 01, 2013, 07:11:45 PM

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 01, 2013, 07:06:02 PM

Quote

Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand and said she's not worried "because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

I can only assume that she missed the verse about not putting God to the test, the one that Jesus specifically quoted during his temptation.

Wow, you figured out that there are contradictions in the bible. You're streets ahead, saddam.

It's not a contradiction.   The point is that the Bible doesn't endorse lying down and doing nothing and expecting God to do everything for you.

What is prayer then?

Asking God for a third hand, not the 2 you already have.

This is probably the most eloquently I've seen this sentiment put into words.

Saddam's post implied that because the woman showed faith, she was putting god to the test. her faith is presumably based on prayer, ergo because she was praying, she was putting god to the test.

And as far as alchemist's definition goes, I disagree. When I was a christian, I always prayed when there were situations that I wanted to change but had no control over. Essentially, it was "god, I can't do anything, so you have to". Perhaps I was praying wrong, or perhaps all prayer is testing god, in which case, a biblical contradiction.

You misunderstand. Praying to God to let the chemo work is one thing. Praying to God to make the cancer magically disappear another thing entirely. We're talking about the former. Staying in New Orleans during Katrina because 'God will protect me' is idiotic. Praying that when you come home you still have a house is faith.

Saddam's post implied that because the woman showed faith, she was putting god to the test. her faith is presumably based on prayer, ergo because she was praying, she was putting god to the test.

And as far as alchemist's definition goes, I disagree. When I was a christian, I always prayed when there were situations that I wanted to change but had no control over. Essentially, it was "god, I can't do anything, so you have to". Perhaps I was praying wrong, or perhaps all prayer is testing god, in which case, a biblical contradiction.

So when you were a Christian did you lie down, do nothing, and expect God to do everything for you?  Because begging for help in a situation that's outside your control is a far cry from that.

If you had no control over it you were asking for needed help, which was what I meant by 3rd hand.  Testing God would be deliberately creating a situation beyond someone's control to see if God steps in.  i. e. Jumping off a cliff with no bungee cord or parachute or glider and seeing if you survive an obviously lethal fall.

At the time Rose said what she said, the 21 or whatever number of people already contracted the disease. At that point, she had no control over the situation and was asking for needed help.

You misunderstand. Praying to God to let the chemo work is one thing. Praying to God to make the cancer magically disappear another thing entirely. We're talking about the former. Staying in New Orleans during Katrina because 'God will protect me' is idiotic. Praying that when you come home you still have a house is faith.

Are you at all familiar with the bible? You're saying the only plausible way for prayer to be legitimate in a cancer situation is for jesus to work indirectly through the doctor or treatment. However, there are various biblical accounts of jesus performing direct physical miracles. Walking on water. Turning water into wine. Bringing the dead to life. Stopping time. Curing blindness. For you to say that praying for jesus to cure measles is idiotic is to say that the bible is idiotic.

So when you were a Christian did you lie down, do nothing, and expect God to do everything for you?  Because begging for help in a situation that's outside your control is a far cry from that.

The woman showed faith in a situation outside of her control. She didn't lie down and do nothing. She had no say in whether those people had vaccinations earlier in life.

Did any of you read saddam's post or the article?

Quote from: Alchemist21 on September 01, 2013, 08:23:34 PM

If you had no control over it you were asking for needed help, which was what I meant by 3rd hand.  Testing God would be deliberately creating a situation beyond someone's control to see if God steps in.  i. e. Jumping off a cliff with no bungee cord or parachute or glider and seeing if you survive an obviously lethal fall.

At the time Rose said what she said, the 21 or whatever number of people already contracted the disease. At that point, she had no control over the situation and was asking for needed help.

Quote from: Tausami on September 01, 2013, 08:54:31 PM

You misunderstand. Praying to God to let the chemo work is one thing. Praying to God to make the cancer magically disappear another thing entirely. We're talking about the former. Staying in New Orleans during Katrina because 'God will protect me' is idiotic. Praying that when you come home you still have a house is faith.

Are you at all familiar with the bible? You're saying the only plausible way for prayer to be legitimate in a cancer situation is for jesus to work indirectly through the doctor or treatment. However, there are various biblical accounts of jesus performing direct physical miracles. Walking on water. Turning water into wine. Bringing the dead to life. Stopping time. Curing blindness. For you to say that praying for jesus to cure measles is idiotic is to say that the bible is idiotic.

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on September 01, 2013, 10:05:54 PM

So when you were a Christian did you lie down, do nothing, and expect God to do everything for you?  Because begging for help in a situation that's outside your control is a far cry from that.

The woman showed faith in a situation outside of her control. She didn't lie down and do nothing. She had no say in whether those people had vaccinations earlier in life.

Did any of you read saddam's post or the article?

Yeah but it kinda speaks volumes that God would allow them to get sick in the first place.

Quote from: spoon on September 02, 2013, 06:19:01 AM

Quote from: Alchemist21 on September 01, 2013, 08:23:34 PM

If you had no control over it you were asking for needed help, which was what I meant by 3rd hand.  Testing God would be deliberately creating a situation beyond someone's control to see if God steps in.  i. e. Jumping off a cliff with no bungee cord or parachute or glider and seeing if you survive an obviously lethal fall.

At the time Rose said what she said, the 21 or whatever number of people already contracted the disease. At that point, she had no control over the situation and was asking for needed help.

Quote from: Tausami on September 01, 2013, 08:54:31 PM

You misunderstand. Praying to God to let the chemo work is one thing. Praying to God to make the cancer magically disappear another thing entirely. We're talking about the former. Staying in New Orleans during Katrina because 'God will protect me' is idiotic. Praying that when you come home you still have a house is faith.

Are you at all familiar with the bible? You're saying the only plausible way for prayer to be legitimate in a cancer situation is for jesus to work indirectly through the doctor or treatment. However, there are various biblical accounts of jesus performing direct physical miracles. Walking on water. Turning water into wine. Bringing the dead to life. Stopping time. Curing blindness. For you to say that praying for jesus to cure measles is idiotic is to say that the bible is idiotic.

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on September 01, 2013, 10:05:54 PM

So when you were a Christian did you lie down, do nothing, and expect God to do everything for you?  Because begging for help in a situation that's outside your control is a far cry from that.

The woman showed faith in a situation outside of her control. She didn't lie down and do nothing. She had no say in whether those people had vaccinations earlier in life.

Did any of you read saddam's post or the article?

Yeah but it kinda speaks volumes that God would allow them to get sick in the first place.

I don't see how that is relevant.

Quote from: Lorddave on September 02, 2013, 06:21:47 AM

Quote from: spoon on September 02, 2013, 06:19:01 AM

Quote from: Alchemist21 on September 01, 2013, 08:23:34 PM

If you had no control over it you were asking for needed help, which was what I meant by 3rd hand.  Testing God would be deliberately creating a situation beyond someone's control to see if God steps in.  i. e. Jumping off a cliff with no bungee cord or parachute or glider and seeing if you survive an obviously lethal fall.

At the time Rose said what she said, the 21 or whatever number of people already contracted the disease. At that point, she had no control over the situation and was asking for needed help.

Quote from: Tausami on September 01, 2013, 08:54:31 PM

You misunderstand. Praying to God to let the chemo work is one thing. Praying to God to make the cancer magically disappear another thing entirely. We're talking about the former. Staying in New Orleans during Katrina because 'God will protect me' is idiotic. Praying that when you come home you still have a house is faith.

Are you at all familiar with the bible? You're saying the only plausible way for prayer to be legitimate in a cancer situation is for jesus to work indirectly through the doctor or treatment. However, there are various biblical accounts of jesus performing direct physical miracles. Walking on water. Turning water into wine. Bringing the dead to life. Stopping time. Curing blindness. For you to say that praying for jesus to cure measles is idiotic is to say that the bible is idiotic.

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on September 01, 2013, 10:05:54 PM

So when you were a Christian did you lie down, do nothing, and expect God to do everything for you?  Because begging for help in a situation that's outside your control is a far cry from that.

The woman showed faith in a situation outside of her control. She didn't lie down and do nothing. She had no say in whether those people had vaccinations earlier in life.

Did any of you read saddam's post or the article?

Yeah but it kinda speaks volumes that God would allow them to get sick in the first place.

I don't see how that is relevant.

You put your faith in God and not science.
God then doesn't protect you from getting the disease you felt he'd protect you from.
You then pray to God to keep you save/cure you.

Or put it another way:
You're asking the being who created, cultivated, and infected you with the virus to cure you and/or keep you from dying.

Quote from: Tausami on September 01, 2013, 08:54:31 PM

You misunderstand. Praying to God to let the chemo work is one thing. Praying to God to make the cancer magically disappear another thing entirely. We're talking about the former. Staying in New Orleans during Katrina because 'God will protect me' is idiotic. Praying that when you come home you still have a house is faith.

Are you at all familiar with the bible? You're saying the only plausible way for prayer to be legitimate in a cancer situation is for jesus to work indirectly through the doctor or treatment. However, there are various biblical accounts of jesus performing direct physical miracles. Walking on water. Turning water into wine. Bringing the dead to life. Stopping time. Curing blindness. For you to say that praying for jesus to cure measles is idiotic is to say that the bible is idiotic.

Stop being wilfully ignorant. That is not what I'm saying. To refuse treatment or prevention and insist that God will protect you is to presume upon Him. He becomes your tool instead of your master, which is blasphemy.

Quote from: spoon on September 02, 2013, 06:19:01 AM

Quote from: Tausami on September 01, 2013, 08:54:31 PM

You misunderstand. Praying to God to let the chemo work is one thing. Praying to God to make the cancer magically disappear another thing entirely. We're talking about the former. Staying in New Orleans during Katrina because 'God will protect me' is idiotic. Praying that when you come home you still have a house is faith.

Are you at all familiar with the bible? You're saying the only plausible way for prayer to be legitimate in a cancer situation is for jesus to work indirectly through the doctor or treatment. However, there are various biblical accounts of jesus performing direct physical miracles. Walking on water. Turning water into wine. Bringing the dead to life. Stopping time. Curing blindness. For you to say that praying for jesus to cure measles is idiotic is to say that the bible is idiotic.

Stop being wilfully ignorant. That is not what I'm saying. To refuse treatment or prevention and insist that God will protect you is to presume upon Him. He becomes your tool instead of your master, which is blasphemy.

You are assuming a lot about one person from

"because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

In case you aren't aware, this is the quote being discussed. Familiarize yourself with it. Her refusal of preventative measures is unknown. All we know is that she is a faithful woman who is praying that Jesus heal the diseased.

You're being dumb, spoon.

Quote from: Tausami on September 02, 2013, 07:55:15 AM

Quote from: spoon on September 02, 2013, 06:19:01 AM

Quote from: Tausami on September 01, 2013, 08:54:31 PM

You misunderstand. Praying to God to let the chemo work is one thing. Praying to God to make the cancer magically disappear another thing entirely. We're talking about the former. Staying in New Orleans during Katrina because 'God will protect me' is idiotic. Praying that when you come home you still have a house is faith.

Are you at all familiar with the bible? You're saying the only plausible way for prayer to be legitimate in a cancer situation is for jesus to work indirectly through the doctor or treatment. However, there are various biblical accounts of jesus performing direct physical miracles. Walking on water. Turning water into wine. Bringing the dead to life. Stopping time. Curing blindness. For you to say that praying for jesus to cure measles is idiotic is to say that the bible is idiotic.

Stop being wilfully ignorant. That is not what I'm saying. To refuse treatment or prevention and insist that God will protect you is to presume upon Him. He becomes your tool instead of your master, which is blasphemy.

You are assuming a lot about one person from

Quote

"because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

In case you aren't aware, this is the quote being discussed. Familiarize yourself with it. Her refusal of preventative measures is unknown. All we know is that she is a faithful woman who is praying that Jesus heal the diseased.

No. That's not what we're discussing. That was the case for a few posts. Then Saddam said something and you said something else and we started discussing prayer in general. The nature of threads is fluid. Please do try to keep up.

You're being dumb, spoon.

if that's the case, so be it. I just don't see how.

@tausami: I have been discussing prayer as it pertains to Rose Mangwi, and have been clear about that for the majority of my posts. If we're not even on the same page about that at this stage, I'm just gonna be done with this thread.

Look, from the context of the article, it appeared that Mangwi was one of the people who wasn't vaccinated and was instead relying on Jesus to protect her.  No, it wasn't stated outright, but it was implied.  It wasn't an unreasonable assumption to make.

 What do you mean her refusal of preventative measures is unknown?  She said she is not against vaccination but has reservations about it due to autism concerns.  Read my post about the autism thing.

This isn't as much her fault specifically as it is the whole town's.  They don't vaccinate their kids because of some scare that's since been dismissed, and this is what happened because of that choice.

It's like asking for a position as a manager after you willingly dropped out of High School for no good reason.

What do you mean her refusal of preventative measures is unknown?  She said she is not against vaccination but has reservations about it due to autism concerns.  Read my post about the autism thing.

No, we're talking about this lady:

Earlier this week, crowds flooded in for regular services. Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand and said she's not worried "because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

I assumed differently. This is dumb.

Quote from: Alchemist21 on September 02, 2013, 09:09:27 AM

What do you mean her refusal of preventative measures is unknown?  She said she is not against vaccination but has reservations about it due to autism concerns.  Read my post about the autism thing.

No, we're talking about this lady:

Quote

Earlier this week, crowds flooded in for regular services. Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand and said she's not worried "because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood...There's no place for fear."

My bad.  Thought she was the pastor.  My point on why they didn't take preventative measures still stands though.

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on September 01, 2013, 10:05:54 PM

So when you were a Christian did you lie down, do nothing, and expect God to do everything for you?  Because begging for help in a situation that's outside your control is a far cry from that.

The woman showed faith in a situation outside of her control. She didn't lie down and do nothing. She had no say in whether those people had vaccinations earlier in life.

Did any of you read saddam's post or the article?

What does that have to do with the article?  I was talking about your obnoxious and condescending definition of "prayer".

Have you bothered reading the thread?