Problem with supported FE map

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2013, 10:54:37 PM »
markjo, no one said that you can not sail using celestial navigation.  Stop interneting when you are drunk.

Please.


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markjo

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2013, 06:07:01 AM »
markjo, no one said that you can not sail using celestial navigation.  Stop interneting when you are drunk.
jroa, as a mod, you should know better than to shit up threads in the upper forums.  I asked Tom a specific question about north at a particular location on a specific FE map and am looking for a specific answer.  Unless you are willing to provide that specific answer, then shut the Th*rk up.
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Chevalier

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2013, 06:21:01 AM »
I looked around on the proposed Flat Earth maps (those I know, are not official). None can support a "Vendée Globe" solitary round-the-world sailing challenge.

Why nobody takes the time to modelize a Flat Earth with a 3D software?

Plus being 3D it could answer pretty easily questions about sun, moon, planets, stars...
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2013, 06:57:27 AM »
Give me monies and I will make a proper map.  To date, there is no official FE map.

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Fizzy Logic

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2013, 07:01:37 AM »
Give me monies and I will make a proper map.  To date, there is no official FE map.

Draw at least something to start with!

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Chevalier

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2013, 07:49:48 AM »
Give me monies and I will make a proper map.  To date, there is no official FE map.
No money here I'm sorry :(

Besides since there are Flat Earth maps around, can we at least base our (flat) travels on it? Or are they utterly false?

Another question is could you base your work for an official map on these maps? Or do you must start the map from scratch?
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Pyrolizard

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2013, 11:15:01 AM »
Still ignoring how magnetic fields actually work, Tom?  Yes, they always form closed loops.  But often they start off moving away from either pole before the curve back around, go past the other pole, and curve back once again to meet it.  So yes, often enough magnetic fields would just fly off into nothing, with the effect being most pronounced in the vicinity of either pole.  I can get the diagram out again if you like.

The problem you pointed out in the previous thread was that if you are directly below the South Pole and attempt to travel Northward, the 3D field lines might curve upwards on themselves overhead of the vessel, leaving the compass confused.
And this is true in many areas south and north of the poles, not just directly 'north' or 'south'.  It becomes significantly less pronounced the further 'east' and 'west' you move relative to them, however, and would be most noticeable directly 'north' and 'south' of the poles.  The directional bearing is by using a compass rose on the map in this case, just to simplify.

How many ships below the South Pole in Fiji are set their path to travel exactly North, though? Not many, I'd wager. Most will be traveling West, North West, East, or North East towards known landmasses, not out into open ocean.

But even if a vessel happened to venture out too far North from Fiji, it stands to reason that they would see their compass non-functional and decide to sail back towards the sun, either going back home, or perhaps sailing around until catching one of the stray NW or NE field lines which curves towards the North Pole. I doubt anyone would sail blindly into open waters without a working compass.
Feel free to charter a boat and sail from New Zealand to Fiji, if you think it's so rare.  If every compass simply breaks, and you don't eventually come near to one of the many island chains due north of both Fiji and New Zealand, we'll call you right.  Of course, we'll need documentation and confirmation by a third, impartial party.

In all respects, the bi-polar model allows for navigation from almost all points on the map, except as you pointed out, when one wants to travel exactly North from below the South Pole, or when one wants to travel exactly South from above the North Pole. Unfortunately, it is an assumption that Fiji is directly South of the South Pole. As we do not have a confirmed map, for all we know there is just open ocean at that location. Perhaps Fiji is not directly centered beneath the South Pole as illustrated in the map but a little to the left or right. This would cause anyone traveling exactly Northward from that location to catch one of the field lines and curve around the world to the North Pole.
There are still several travel time discrepancies, as well as the issue of sailing directly east or west nearly anywhere in the Pacific leading you right off the edge.  It would, too, because east and west by compass are necessarily perpendicular to north and south.

You have a fair point in that Fiji and New Zealand aren't directly north of the south pole on a given map, but that's an error with the visual and not the concept.  There is a place where such is true, and it's actually directly south of Australia, very near to Antarctica in the Pacific.  Looking at the apparent bipolar map, with the south magnetic pole placed where it evidently is, the issue still exists with any of the many island chains directly adjacent to Australia and Papua New Guinea.  There's also the issue that east and west would be reversed during the trip from Australia to New Zealand and Fiji, as you'd cross the line between the north and south poles.

If your point was that the distance between Fiji/New Zealand and Australia is rather significantly off, again, feel free to charter a boat and record the rate that it took you to reach Australia from either.  Get the bearing too, while you're at it.  And a third party, we have to make sure the data isn't simply fabricated, remember.

Hence, even if we did find a report of someone traveling exactly North from Fiji (unlikely), we do not even know where Fiji is in the model to say with confidence that the ship traveled exactly North from dead center beneath the South Pole.
So your defence is that, since you don't have a map of the Earth, we can't say your map has the listed flaws?  While technically true, the lack of a map at all simply further invalidates your position, on top of the speculative map having so many flaws.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2013, 01:03:07 PM »
In all respects, the bi-polar model allows for navigation from almost all points on the map, except as you pointed out, when one wants to travel exactly North from below the South Pole, or when one wants to travel exactly South from above the North Pole.

Or if you want to fly non-stop between Australia and North America, say from Sydney to LA along the path used by most commercial airlines:



That route is possible in the bi-polar model.

But even if a vessel happened to venture out too far North from Fiji, it stands to reason that they would see their compass non-functional and decide to sail back towards the sun, either going back home, or perhaps sailing around until catching one of the stray NW or NE field lines which curves towards the North Pole. I doubt anyone would sail blindly into open waters without a working compass.
What about those navigators who use celestial navigation instead of a compass?  Wouldn't they get confused when Crux is pointing north?

How many people navigate via Celestial Navigation? Celestial Navigation has not been the primary method of navigation for hundreds of years.

I looked around on the proposed Flat Earth maps (those I know, are not official). None can support a "Vendée Globe" solitary round-the-world sailing challenge.

Why nobody takes the time to modelize a Flat Earth with a 3D software?

Plus being 3D it could answer pretty easily questions about sun, moon, planets, stars...

This route is possible in the bi-polar model:


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Rama Set

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2013, 02:00:29 PM »
In all respects, the bi-polar model allows for navigation from almost all points on the map, except as you pointed out, when one wants to travel exactly North from below the South Pole, or when one wants to travel exactly South from above the North Pole.

Or if you want to fly non-stop between Australia and North America, say from Sydney to LA along the path used by most commercial airlines:



That route is possible in the bi-polar model.

But even if a vessel happened to venture out too far North from Fiji, it stands to reason that they would see their compass non-functional and decide to sail back towards the sun, either going back home, or perhaps sailing around until catching one of the stray NW or NE field lines which curves towards the North Pole. I doubt anyone would sail blindly into open waters without a working compass.
What about those navigators who use celestial navigation instead of a compass?  Wouldn't they get confused when Crux is pointing north?

How many people navigate via Celestial Navigation? Celestial Navigation has not been the primary method of navigation for hundreds of years.

I looked around on the proposed Flat Earth maps (those I know, are not official). None can support a "Vendée Globe" solitary round-the-world sailing challenge.

Why nobody takes the time to modelize a Flat Earth with a 3D software?

Plus being 3D it could answer pretty easily questions about sun, moon, planets, stars...

This route is possible in the bi-polar model:



The routes would be the same but not equivalent in every way.  Oh, and why would a navigation method's primacy or lack thereof affect its possibility?
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Alex Tomasovich

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2013, 02:08:06 PM »
In all respects, the bi-polar model allows for navigation from almost all points on the map, except as you pointed out, when one wants to travel exactly North from below the South Pole, or when one wants to travel exactly South from above the North Pole.

Or if you want to fly non-stop between Australia and North America, say from Sydney to LA along the path used by most commercial airlines:



That route is possible in the bi-polar model.
Nooot really. It involves some kind of teleportation technology:


The red line is the flight taken by airlines. The green one is the logical path, if your bipolar map were correct.

How many people navigate via Celestial Navigation? Celestial Navigation has not been the primary method of navigation for hundreds of years.

So now you're limiting human history to the most recent 50 years. Celestial navigation was still used in the early 1900s.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 02:09:41 PM by Alex Tomasovich »

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Chevalier

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2013, 03:14:33 PM »
In all respects, the bi-polar model allows for navigation from almost all points on the map, except as you pointed out, when one wants to travel exactly North from below the South Pole, or when one wants to travel exactly South from above the North Pole.

Or if you want to fly non-stop between Australia and North America, say from Sydney to LA along the path used by most commercial airlines:



That route is possible in the bi-polar model.

But even if a vessel happened to venture out too far North from Fiji, it stands to reason that they would see their compass non-functional and decide to sail back towards the sun, either going back home, or perhaps sailing around until catching one of the stray NW or NE field lines which curves towards the North Pole. I doubt anyone would sail blindly into open waters without a working compass.
What about those navigators who use celestial navigation instead of a compass?  Wouldn't they get confused when Crux is pointing north?

How many people navigate via Celestial Navigation? Celestial Navigation has not been the primary method of navigation for hundreds of years.

I looked around on the proposed Flat Earth maps (those I know, are not official). None can support a "Vendée Globe" solitary round-the-world sailing challenge.

Why nobody takes the time to modelize a Flat Earth with a 3D software?

Plus being 3D it could answer pretty easily questions about sun, moon, planets, stars...

This route is possible in the bi-polar model:



The routes would be the same but not equivalent in every way.  Oh, and why would a navigation method's primacy or lack thereof affect its possibility?
Good point for the Vendée Globe Tom. I take that this map is the most supported, so there is no "Ice Wall" around?

However this map can't answer how you travel through the Pacific Ocean west-east and vice-versa.
Also Flights from Tokyo to United States would pass on Siberia. Airlines companies can make a detour but it's not in their interests to burn fuel instead of going the straight line.
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Scintific Method

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2013, 03:40:46 PM »
In all respects, the bi-polar model allows for navigation from almost all points on the map, except as you pointed out, when one wants to travel exactly North from below the South Pole, or when one wants to travel exactly South from above the North Pole.

Or if you want to fly non-stop between Australia and North America, say from Sydney to LA along the path used by most commercial airlines:



That route is possible in the bi-polar model.


In under 15 hours? Even the most direct route across the bipolar model (which would cross over Africa and most of the southern US) would be lucky to come in under 15 hours, but you say that a route over the Pacific can do this? How?
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markjo

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2013, 06:13:43 PM »
How many people navigate via Celestial Navigation? Celestial Navigation has not been the primary method of navigation for hundreds of years.
Whether or not celestial navigation is currently a primary method of navigation or not is irrelevant to it's validity.  Celestial navigation was a vitally important method of navigation for many hundreds of years, including Rowbotham's time.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Cartesian

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2013, 05:55:55 AM »
This route is possible in the bi-polar model:


Hi Tom,

When the sailor was at Porte Nouvelle Zélande (bottom of the map), where did the north needle of his compass point to? If it wasn't pointing upward (to Antartica) but downward, why does the magnetic north change as you circle Antartica?
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2013, 05:34:55 PM »
Nooot really. It involves some kind of teleportation technology:

http://i.imgur.com/p95BIup.png
The red line is the flight taken by airlines. The green one is the logical path, if your bipolar map were correct.

In that scenario the path would be a big semicircle from Australia to California. There would be no teleportation involved.

Quote
How many people navigate via Celestial Navigation? Celestial Navigation has not been the primary method of navigation for hundreds of years.

So now you're limiting human history to the most recent 50 years. Celestial navigation was still used in the early 1900s.

From what I've read of Celestial Navigation, Celestial Navigation in the Northern Hemisphere involves only looking at the North Star to get the direction of "North" and then adjusting your bearing off of that. Celestial Navigation in the Southern Hemisphere involves finding various constellations to find Sigma Octantis, the South Pole Star, to get the direction of "South," and then adjusting your bearing accordingly.

Since East and West are always at right angles to North and South, either of these methods would work for traveling Eastwards or Westwards in the Bi-Polar model.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2013, 05:36:43 PM »
Hi Tom,

When the sailor was at Porte Nouvelle Zélande (bottom of the map), where did the north needle of his compass point to? If it wasn't pointing upward (to Antartica) but downward, why does the magnetic north change as you circle Antartica?

Because the magnetic field lines change as your circle Antarctica.

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Pyrolizard

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2013, 06:23:42 PM »
Since East and West are always at right angles to North and South, either of these methods would work for traveling Eastwards or Westwards in the Bi-Polar model.

By that same token of east and west being perpendicular to north and south, navigation travelling west of the Americas or east of Afro-Eurasia and Australia is broken using the common projection, as it would take you to the edge of the map.  This would be true on some level for any projection, on top of the earlier way that the concept of the bipolar map breaks navigation due south and north of the respective poles.
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Rama Set

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2013, 09:32:54 PM »
Hi Tom,

When the sailor was at Porte Nouvelle Zélande (bottom of the map), where did the north needle of his compass point to? If it wasn't pointing upward (to Antartica) but downward, why does the magnetic north change as you circle Antartica?

Because the magnetic field lines change as your circle Antarctica.

They do?  Can you please provide some evidence of this?
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Rama Set

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2013, 09:34:40 PM »

Since East and West are always at right angles to North and South, either of these methods would work for traveling Eastwards or Westwards in the Bi-Polar model.

Not at the equator.
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Cartesian

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2013, 10:50:52 PM »
Hi Tom,

When the sailor was at Porte Nouvelle Zélande (bottom of the map), where did the north needle of his compass point to? If it wasn't pointing upward (to Antartica) but downward, why does the magnetic north change as you circle Antartica?

Because the magnetic field lines change as your circle Antarctica.

Can you not find a shorter answer? You seem to like to argue without any solid understanding of what you say. Are you able to draw where the magnetic north/norths is/are in your bipolar map?
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Art

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Re: Problem with supported FE map
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2013, 04:55:08 PM »
I like what you've done with my country there (Australia).
Made it so a trip from the northern end to the southern end of the continent is twice the
distance if you do it on the eastern side, as it would be if you did the trip on the Western side.

Would somebody mind swapping that around?
It is more likely that I'm going to travel on the Eastern side, and this is going to blow out my fuel budget.

Driving a motor vehicle from Brisbane to Melbourne actually only takes a day.

Perhaps you could produce one for free that isn't like a child playing with fingerpaints,
just to save embarrassment.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 05:02:37 PM by Art »
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