The FE map

Recently I employed a builder to build an extension on my home. I say extension but it was more like a whole new house. Interestingly he didn't require me to provide a business plan. He just provided me a quote and did the job. I then paid. All in all it was a very very odd experience. On a similar but far less expensive note I bought a sandwich today and, again, was not required to provide a business plan for my purchase.

Recently I employed a builder to build an extension on my home. I say extension but it was more like a whole new house. Interestingly he didn't require me to provide a business plan. He just provided me a quote and did the job. I then paid. All in all it was a very very odd experience. On a similar but far less expensive note I bought a sandwich today and, again, was not required to provide a business plan for my purchase.

Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

I also believe that you are a liar.  Building a whole new house would likely be a month or two undertaking.  Unless the builder had incredible trust in you, or had so much money it didn't matter, you would have paid several invoices throughout the duration.  Regardless, it is still a false equivalence.  It would not require a business plan for something such as this, but you would have to show an ability to pay.  Again, unless your builder trusted you that much, didn't care, or was a moron.

Quote from: monkeybradders on August 03, 2013, 01:58:21 PM

Recently I employed a builder to build an extension on my home. I say extension but it was more like a whole new house. Interestingly he didn't require me to provide a business plan. He just provided me a quote and did the job. I then paid. All in all it was a very very odd experience. On a similar but far less expensive note I bought a sandwich today and, again, was not required to provide a business plan for my purchase.

Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

I also believe that you are a liar.  Building a whole new house would likely be a month or two undertaking.  Unless the builder had incredible trust in you, or had so much money it didn't matter, you would have paid several invoices throughout the duration.  Regardless, it is still a false equivalence.  It would not require a business plan for something such as this, but you would have to show an ability to pay.  Again, unless your builder trusted you that much, didn't care, or was a moron.

You're right, i am liar. I didn't buy a sandwich today.
I don't see the point of you telling me how long it would take a build an extension on my home, when i lived it. It took 9 weeks and 4 days. What's your point?
 
Do you know what a contract is? Basically it allows people to get on with life without wasting each others time become best friends before doing anything for them. So Joe Builder says " i will build this lovely extension to your already lovely home for £87,000 and i will have it done by 9 weeks hence. Signed Jo Builder " I then sign next to the bit that says my name to say that i agree. Now, there can be caveats about it taking longer and such like. You're confusing the use of sub contractors like electricians and plumbers who will need paying when they work, but this is by the by.

Like i said earlier i think you're confusing asking someone to create a correct map of the Earth with starting some sort of Flat Earth Inc. and asking people to invest in it for who knows what reason.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 03, 2013, 09:53:43 AM

You can paypal your donations for a FES World-Wide Exploratory Voyage to tom.bishop.enterprises@gmail.com.

Tom you sly old dog. I apologise for my earlier comments. All along you've just been biding your time until you yourself use your cartographic skills to draw the correct flat earth map.....The Bishop Map.

I am more than willing to get on at the ground floor with this and to send you cash money via paypal.

thank you, Tom

monkeybradders I think you may have something there !
There is  of course the well known "The Bishop Constant".....Why not follow it up with "The Bishop Map" !

Quote from: Junker on August 03, 2013, 02:06:53 PM

Quote from: monkeybradders on August 03, 2013, 01:58:21 PM

Recently I employed a builder to build an extension on my home. I say extension but it was more like a whole new house. Interestingly he didn't require me to provide a business plan. He just provided me a quote and did the job. I then paid. All in all it was a very very odd experience. On a similar but far less expensive note I bought a sandwich today and, again, was not required to provide a business plan for my purchase.

Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

I also believe that you are a liar.  Building a whole new house would likely be a month or two undertaking.  Unless the builder had incredible trust in you, or had so much money it didn't matter, you would have paid several invoices throughout the duration.  Regardless, it is still a false equivalence.  It would not require a business plan for something such as this, but you would have to show an ability to pay.  Again, unless your builder trusted you that much, didn't care, or was a moron.

You're right, i am liar. I didn't buy a sandwich today.
I don't see the point of you telling me how long it would take a build an extension on my home, when i lived it. It took 9 weeks and 4 days. What's your point?
 
Do you know what a contract is? Basically it allows people to get on with life without wasting each others time become best friends before doing anything for them. So Joe Builder says " i will build this lovely extension to your already lovely home for £87,000 and i will have it done by 9 weeks hence. Signed Jo Builder " I then sign next to the bit that says my name to say that i agree. Now, there can be caveats about it taking longer and such like. You're confusing the use of sub contractors like electricians and plumbers who will need paying when they work, but this is by the by.

Like i said earlier i think you're confusing asking someone to create a correct map of the Earth with starting some sort of Flat Earth Inc. and asking people to invest in it for who knows what reason.

So your builder fronted the capital to purchase the materials for whatever reason.  The result is the same, the money came from somewhere before you paid it back.  In your case, you made a contract to pay for a goods and services with money you already had, or obtained a loan for.  You are suggesting a cartography company fronts an untold amount of money without any assurance the money will be paid back when at the time a contract is executed.  Other than a promise that money will come eventually.  If you can't see the difference, there isn't much more I can do to help you.

Quote from: therationalist56 on August 03, 2013, 12:06:50 AM

But I did support it and it does follow...I suggest you reread my post. As I have said many times, formal logic (like the logic I presented) is not depended on the subject at hand. The logic I presented would work (and has worked) on any business (in fact I used your model so if you are saying my logic is wrong then you must admit your logic is wrong (and with regards to that single business example it isn't)), If still you want proof why don't we look at any multibillion dollar company. Let's say Apple. They broke into a market that did not exists and made billions (if you want proof of that I'd suggest looking at a stock exchange or wikipedia.) This is the same but with maps. They would be selling the only correct map in the world. How would they not make billions selling to every airline, military, and shipping company? Every plane, ship, missile guidance system, soldier, pilot, and captain in the world would need this correct map. It would be like if apple was the only computer company in the world.

EDIT: And before you try another red herring and shift this thread to a completely irrelevant discussion of something to do with my Apple example under the false assumption that if that particular example is wrong than my argument is wrong I have two things to say. First, it was an incomplete example. If you want a history of Apple look on wikipedia. Second, Apple is merely an example and the logic does not depend on the example. Furthermore, there are many other companies (once again I refer you to wikipedia or even google) which have used the same logic in regards to business as I have presented.

Okay, where to start.  First, it seems you already know your example was wrong, which is why you edited your post.  It makes me wonder why you posted to begin with when it seems you already knew you were wrong.  No, your logic does not follow.  You tried to use an example to prove your point, and it is incorrect.  You also don't get to try to make a claim to support your point and then tell me I can't refute it.  I am glad you picked Apple as an example though.  Steve Jobs is a personal hero of mine and I know the history of Apple inside and out, no need for Wikipedia.  But you can use it if you wish to confirm what I am telling you.  You are right that Apple made a market for what they created.  Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, and to a lesser extent Ron Wayne (he sold his shares very early) used their own money to begin creating computers in Steve's parents garage.  Steve Jobs failed many times to get a loan for capital based on his business plan of selling personal computers.  It wasn't until venture capitalist Mike Markkula provided a quarter million US dollars capital that the company was able to flourish.  As you can see, even your point about Apple is a miserable failure.

Back to the point at hand.  You need money up front, period.  It really doesn't matter where it comes from, but to undertake a project such as described in the OP requires capital, no matter how you slice it.  I suggest you do a bit more research before spouting off about things you are clearly clueless about.  Better luck next time.

I still do not understand how my logic does not follow...it seems to me that you think that because the example I posted after I made a logical argument does not make sense to you the logic made before the example is somehow invalid. Care to elaborate as to why that is the case? Also I edited it so you would not do what you are doing as it seems only a completely one hundred percent perfect example would make you happy. The Apple example was merely there to show how somebody bursting into a new market would make a fortune. Also, make up your mind. First I need investors (which this theoretical business model would get when they prove to have the only correct map of the earth). Now I need to provide money up front? Is that not what the investors are for?

1 So your builder fronted the capital to purchase the materials for whatever reason. 2 The result is the same, the money came from somewhere before you paid it back.  In your case, you made a contract to pay for a goods and services with money you already had, or obtained a loan for.  3 You are suggesting a cartography company fronts an untold amount of money without any assurance the money will be paid back when at the time a contract is executed.  Other than a promise that money will come eventually.  If you can't see the difference, there isn't much more I can do to help you.

1) Yes, see my lesson on contracts. And learn about cash flow and credit lines. Can i ask why you think it's unreasonable to pay for work on completion but reasonable to pay up front, thus losing control of the project?

2) Paid what money back to whom?

3) The contract is the assurance.

Are you for real?

Now back to original point before. Is it the FES's intention to, at some point, to have the Earth correctly mapped?

Quote from: Junker on August 03, 2013, 06:09:04 PM

1 So your builder fronted the capital to purchase the materials for whatever reason. 2 The result is the same, the money came from somewhere before you paid it back.  In your case, you made a contract to pay for a goods and services with money you already had, or obtained a loan for.  3 You are suggesting a cartography company fronts an untold amount of money without any assurance the money will be paid back when at the time a contract is executed.  Other than a promise that money will come eventually.  If you can't see the difference, there isn't much more I can do to help you.

1) Yes, see my lesson on contracts. And learn about cash flow and credit lines. Can i ask why you think it's unreasonable to pay for work on completion but reasonable to pay up front, thus losing control of the project?

2) Paid what money back to whom?

3) The contract is the assurance.

Are you for real?

I am beginning to think you are being purposefully obtuse.

1)  You clearly know very little about these subjects.  How long do you think it would take to map the planar Earth?  Months?  Years?  Who is going to pay for it?  Where will the money come from?  Having a contract promising to pay at the end is nonsensical in this case.  It would also be nonsensical to pay it all up front.  Typically with contracts for large projects, and please try to follow me here, the party requesting the service pays some amount up front.  Then, there are scheduled payments at predetermined dates, or milestones of the project.  They do this to provide initial funding for the project as well as demonstrating a capability to pay.  But apparently everyone you have ever dealt with believes bearing all costs for services they provide you on nothing more than good faith.  Yes, contracts are binding agreements.  Any idea how long it takes to recuperate losses if a party that signs a contract doesn't pay what is owed?  I do, because I have dealt with it.  It can cripple a business if the project is as large as what you are suggesting.  Anyway, I am done explaining things to you at this point.  I am starting to think you are hopeless.

2)  Are you for real?  You are suggesting a company front all costs for mapping the Earth, and then someone will pay them back.  In this case, who do you think needs to be paid back?  Please take a few minutes before answering, I really would like to see you not screw this up.

3)  See above.  A contract is a piece of paper.  You can't buy anything with a contract.  If someone fails to pay, the onus is on the business to seek legal remedy which costs even more money and time.  Suppose the party wanting the service fails to pay, and ends up declaring bankruptcy.  The company would potentially be out most, if not all monies, it paid for the project.

Yes, this is real.  I am trying to help you, but this is clearly a lost cause.

Now back to original point before. Is it the FES's intention to, at some point, to have the Earth correctly mapped?

Not likely, due to the issues explained above.

Cool, so what we've learnt is that it's entirely possible to map the Earth via crowd funding a correctly drawn up contract and by paying in stages like, i dunno, a continent at a time.

Thanks for helping

Cool, so what we've learnt is that it's entirely possible to map the Earth via crowd funding a correctly drawn up contract and by paying in stages like, i dunno, a continent at a time.

Thanks for helping

Possibly. You should kick off a crowd funding effort and find out.

Glad I could teach you something.

The National Geographic Society  has been drawing maps for the National Geographic Magazine for many years.

Why haven't the members of the Flat Earth Society drawn just one  map and why can't they just get together and draw just one map by themselves ? There seem to be many experts within the Flat Earth Society who could compile such a map ?

The National Geographic Society  has been drawing maps for the National Geographic Magazine for many years.

They are a non-profit institution that has a revenue stream.  Projects such as this are much easier when you have money.

There seem to be many experts within the Flat Earth Society who could compile such a map ?

Experts at map-making?  Can you provide an example of someone here who has claimed to be an expert?

Cool, so what we've learnt is that it's entirely possible to map the Earth via crowd funding a correctly drawn up contract and by paying in stages like, i dunno, a continent at a time.

Thanks for helping

Anything is possible in the absolute sense. What we're discussing is what is possible given existing circumstances. We could not fund cartographers to map a city, never mind a continent.


I remember you challenging me to go into space if someone funded it. Years later, I still have not been to space. It amazes me that you are still so dismissive of the difficulty of funding such projects given your previous failures.

Recently I employed a builder to build an extension on my home. I say extension but it was more like a whole new house. Interestingly he didn't require me to provide a business plan. He just provided me a quote and did the job. I then paid. All in all it was a very very odd experience. On a similar but far less expensive note I bought a sandwich today and, again, was not required to provide a business plan for my purchase.

On an addition to our house, my experience was exactly the same a monkeybradders. It probably wasn't as extensive or expensive as monkeybradders, but the details were just identical as monkeybradders described.

On a similar note, my other experience was a bit more expensive than monkeybradders. The wife, daughter and I had lunch at a Chinese Buffet and the tab was a bit more than monkeybradders' sandwich. There wasn't any requirement for a business plan for a tip, either. It was strictly left to the discretion of the diner.

Quote from: monkeybradders on August 03, 2013, 01:58:21 PM

Recently I employed a builder to build an extension on my home. I say extension but it was more like a whole new house. Interestingly he didn't require me to provide a business plan. He just provided me a quote and did the job. I then paid. All in all it was a very very odd experience. On a similar but far less expensive note I bought a sandwich today and, again, was not required to provide a business plan for my purchase.

On an addition to our house, my experience was exactly the same a monkeybradders. It probably wasn't as extensive or expensive as monkeybradders, but the details were just identical as monkeybradders described.

On a similar note, my other experience was a bit more expensive than monkeybradders. The wife, daughter and I had lunch at a Chinese Buffet and the tab was a bit more than monkeybradders' sandwich. There wasn't any requirement for a business plan for a tip, either. It was strictly left to the discretion of the diner.

Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Do we have to go through this exercise again?

Quote from: Googleotomy on August 04, 2013, 05:30:00 PM

The National Geographic Society  has been drawing maps for the National Geographic Magazine for many years.

They are a non-profit institution that has a revenue stream.  Projects such as this are much easier when you have money.

Quote from: Googleotomy on August 04, 2013, 05:30:00 PM

There seem to be many experts within the Flat Earth Society who could compile such a map ?

Experts at map-making?  Can you provide an example of someone here who has claimed to be an expert?

Sorry ! My apologies ! I just got that impression from some of the posters that there were experts such as Tom Bishop, thork, sceptimatic, sandokhan and others for example. Maybe it was a false impression, but I just assumed they were experts in the field of the Flat Earth.

I also just assumed than any organization such as the Flat Earth Society would have many experts in many fields.

Or are you saying that it is just too big a job for such a small organization as The Flat Earth Society ?

Quote from: monkeybradders on August 04, 2013, 09:30:09 AM

Cool, so what we've learnt is that it's entirely possible to map the Earth via crowd funding a correctly drawn up contract and by paying in stages like, i dunno, a continent at a time.

Thanks for helping

Anything is possible in the absolute sense. What we're discussing is what is possible given existing circumstances. We could not fund cartographers to map a city, never mind a continent.


I remember you challenging me to go into space if someone funded it. Years later, I still have not been to space. It amazes me that you are still so dismissive of the difficulty of funding such projects given your previous failures.

Look here you bet welching ruffian. I have been saving hard to get you on Branson's Rocket I can't be expected to by y'all a map as well 

Quote from: Googleotomy on August 04, 2013, 05:30:00 PM

The National Geographic Society  has been drawing maps for the National Geographic Magazine for many years.

They are a non-profit institution that has a revenue stream.  Projects such as this are much easier when you have money.

Quote from: Googleotomy on August 04, 2013, 05:30:00 PM

There seem to be many experts within the Flat Earth Society who could compile such a map ?

Experts at map-making?  Can you provide an example of someone here who has claimed to be an expert?

Let me explain that my false assumption that there were experts in The Flat Earth Society  who could easily compile an accurate Flat Earth Map. :

In an organization such as this which is supposed to have knowledge about a Flat Earth, there should be experts in many fields.

For example, I have belonged to several Amateur Radio Clubs and Photography Clubs and in addition to the "amateurs" in the groups, there were always a few persons in professional fields who were experts in the fields of radio and photography, such as a sampling of scientists, engineers  and professors . I just assumed this would be the case in The Flat Earth Society. Since the Flat Earth Map is an important part of the Flat Earth Society, this would also be be the case and there would be at least some persons who could compile the Flat Earth Map. If there are none in the society, let me repeat,  if there are believers outside the society, surely they would come to the aid of the society and offer their services. This has also happened in the "amateur" organizations to which I have belonged.

So, why hasn't The Flat Earth even started on something that seems so important ?

As for the fact that the present "Flat Earth Map" is obviously just a copy of a projection made from a globe, this old joke. :

A group of scientists told God that they could make anything that God could make.
So God told them to go ahead and prove this.
And the scientists started to work in earnest.
But God said, "Wait a minute ! Make your own dirt first !"

So , Flat Earth, don't make your map from a globe ! Make your own map from your facts for a start !

hi,

just popped in for my yearly map update?

love


P.S LW - I have raised £87.50 and 6 pesata's towards your trip on Branson's Rocket

Hi-

Me,too. I just popped in to see  how the Flat Earth Map Project was going.

However, it has taken years to survey and map the Round Earth and the work still goes on so I think we Round Earthers should be patient and let the Flat Earth Map Project Team get on with their Flat Earth Map Project. But it doesn't seem that they have been getting on with it in their past other than than just trying to pan off a copy of just some projections of a globe as "The" Flat Earth Map. Give them time, for goodness sake !

P.S. I just had an inspiration for a fund-raising project for the Flat Earth Map Project.
I am sure we are all familiar with the American Film Actor, Hal Holbrook, and his impersonations of "Mark Twain" (Samuel Clemens). Why not hire or get a volunteer to impersonate Samuel Rowbotham and give lectures and charge admission to those lectures to raise funds for the Flat Earth Map Project  ? I am offering this suggestion free of charge with no strings attached to The Flat Earth Society. 

Let's get the ball rolling !!!!!!!

Hi there,

Apologies bu i'm a little tardy this year!  Anyhoo how's that map going? I'm a little concerned since I haven't seen anything on the news about this. But hey, the conspiracy might be to blame for the that.

Love you

Some 4 years ago i queried why the FES hasn't contacted a cartographer to draw up a correct map of the Earth.

Hello???  It has already been done long ago and they sold out. 

You are going to have to wake up earlier than that next time. 

Quote from: monkeybradders on August 02, 2013, 03:29:50 AM

Some 4 years ago i queried why the FES hasn't contacted a cartographer to draw up a correct map of the Earth.

Hello???  It has already been done long ago and they sold out. 

You are going to have to wake up earlier than that next time.

No no it hasn't been done. If the earth had been mapped correctly mapped this noble society would be moot. It's existence is proof alone that no such map exists.

Quote from: Charming Anarchist on December 12, 2015, 01:22:46 AM

Quote from: monkeybradders on August 02, 2013, 03:29:50 AM

Some 4 years ago i queried why the FES hasn't contacted a cartographer to draw up a correct map of the Earth.

Hello???  It has already been done long ago and they sold out. 

You are going to have to wake up earlier than that next time.

No no it hasn't been done. If the earth had been mapped correctly mapped this noble society would be moot. It's existence is proof alone that no such map exists.

http://openstreetmap.org

You can edit the map, fix what you think is incorrect.

Hiya kids, how's the map going? Is Bezods going to draw it?

The problem, such as it is, is that Flat Earthers don't have any proof or evidence of the configuration of the flat planet.  That huge disk with the South Pole spread around the edge is clearly not accurate, neither is the sliced up map with deep zigzag edging.

IF the Earth is flat then the map would be as easy as a floor plan to draw and the only difference from copy to copy would be the size ratio, which wouldn't require higher mathematics.  But the Earth isn't flat so there are more than 200 diffferent projections for trying to represent a sphere (or part of one) on a flat page.

You cannot draw map of the earth. Earth is infinite North to South and works like a cylinder east to west. Read Worlds Beyond the Poles. Earth is a flat plane and cylinder at the same time. When you go West or East you return to the same place due to the 4th dimensional loop.

Polish people had no clue.

But yeah, that book has been torn to shreds here before, if I remember correctly.

From Stash, back in 2020:
One of the massive problems with Giannini's rambling "Worlds Beyond the Poles" is that he predicates much of his polar expedition evidence on downright faulty evidence. Most specifically, he references/cites Byrd's discoveries of vast lands beyond the North Pole that he and his team witnessed during their expedition there in 1947. The only problem is that in 1947 Admiral Byrd couldn't have been further away from the North Pole - He was in the middle of Operation Highjump on Antarctica, at the South Pole in 1947. Considering Byrd's expeditions are the lynchpin of the author's entire argument, making that core erroneous claim leads me to that his book is garbage fiction, nothing more, nothing less.

Not that such a thing would matter much to you, but for some it can be useful information.