Take two

  • 38 Replies
  • 7197 Views
Take two
« on: August 01, 2013, 03:45:21 PM »
Can you imagine a sphere so big, that if you would stand on its surface, it would actually look flat? If you can't imagine that, I can see why you can't see why the earth is round.

Thing is. I am never going to see the earth from a distance, but I got all the evidence which supports the fact we're living on a spherical earth I need my imagination to see how it would be all possible while still considering all observations, and it all is possible.
I can see how a giant sphere can appear flat, but is in fact still a sphere.

I asked this question to the flat earth believers on a serious note. I saw my question got moved  to the complete nonsense section for presumably no reason. I'll ask just once and one time only to the moderator to take my question seriously. I am taking you seriously, but if you treat me like that....you'll lose all the credibility you have for me! One good turn deserves another!

That being said, I will be looking forward to a serious discussion.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 03:57:34 AM by Don Quichotte »

*

Junker

  • 3925
Re: Take two
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 04:16:02 PM »
I moved your original because it didn't leave room for discussion.  This one does a little better, but I am not sure what kind of discussion you are looking for when the answer to your question is yes or no.

But, I will partake and answer your question.  Yes, I can imagine it.  Is it true?  No.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17920
Re: Take two
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2013, 04:47:23 PM »
I am never going to see the earth from a distance

Why do you believe in things you cannot, and will never, see?

I need my imagination to see how it would be all possible

That seems like some sound methodology there.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 06:04:29 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Take two
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2013, 04:50:12 PM »
I am never going to see the earth from a distance

Why do you believe in things you cannot, and will never, see?

I need my imagination to see how it would be all possible

That seems like some sound methodology there.
The imagination is a very powerful tool. It allows us to model various things in our minds and realize the consequences of these models. Things that are too big to see without getting really far away (like the Earth) or things too small to see (like atoms) can be modeled with imagination. In this way we can compare various models against each-other and develop experiments to show which is more true to reality.

I for one can imagine a massive (compared to me) sphereoid and understand how it can appear at first glance to be flat. I can also imagine a flat plane of an Earth. I can imagine living on both, and seeing various phenomena with each one. I can then compare real-life observations with these hypothetical observations, and decide which model more closely matches reality.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42529
Re: Take two
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2013, 06:24:14 PM »
I am never going to see the earth from a distance

Why do you believe in things you cannot, and will never, see?

Probably for the same reasons that you believe in an infinite plane, flat earth.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

darknavyseal

  • 439
  • Round Earth, for sure, maybe.
Re: Take two
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 01:29:20 AM »
I am never going to see the earth from a distance

Why do you believe in things you cannot, and will never, see?

Probably for the same reasons that you believe in an infinite plane, flat earth.

I will never see your bathroom, Tom. I firmly believe it exists, since you are clearly not dead from infection from crapping all over your bathroomless house. Hence, you must own a bathroom. I never saw it, yet I believe it exists.

Re: Take two
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 03:54:36 AM »
I am never going to see the earth from a distance

Why do you believe in things you cannot, and will never, see?

I need my imagination to see how it would be all possible

That seems like some sound methodology there.

Tom, it is not about "believing" in things I cannot see, it is about making models in my mind which represents the thruth. I got a globe on my desk. It allows for a great deal of experiments. It is tilted, so if I shine a light, like that of the sun, I can see it matches my observations I did on the real world. However, I am not in the position to go to space. Even if I would see the ISS, I wouldn't see the entire earth. There is always that possibility that my models are inaccurate. Even if I would be able see the entire earth from space. I still would not be 100% certain that it is true what I see.

I got to rely on my senses and there is no way for me to check if my senses are correct. Humans for example can only see a portion of all the light. We do not really see the way things really are. We got to use our imagination and models, but all these models and the imagination are backed up by evidence which can be verified over and over again. Our imagination is necessary in understanding the things around us.

Imagination is not fantasizing. Imagination is, like I said, backed up by evidence. Imagination is something which you could see as true. Fantasy is something you make up (i.e. fire spitting dragon with an ice cream in its hand).

Re: Take two
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 03:57:05 AM »
I moved your original because it didn't leave room for discussion.  This one does a little better, but I am not sure what kind of discussion you are looking for when the answer to your question is yes or no.

But, I will partake and answer your question.  Yes, I can imagine it.  Is it true?  No.

If you say yes you can imagine it. Then there is a problem with the zetetic approach of believing what you see. Obviously you see a flat earth out there, but if you can imagine (you think of something which could be true) a sphere so big it would appear flat if you would stand on it, you got to even question the earth being really flat.

If you ask me. No I cannot imagine a flat earth, because it would contradict all sorts of observations.

Re: Take two
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 05:54:52 AM »
I don't think any Flat Earth member ever claimed that a round earth wasn't a nice fantasy. Imagine a world were man had actually been to outer space, stepped on the Moon that even the Dinosaurs looked at, sent machines that landed on Mars and a moon of Saturn, have a probe that is on the verge of leaving our solar system. Imagine a universe where starlight travels billions of light years before it even reaches the earth for the first time.

I can also imagine a world where scientists actually did what they claimed: observe the world as it is and make some real progress.

Re: Take two
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 08:01:39 AM »
Muggy your lack of comprehension does not mean it is a fantasy. The evidence in reaching space flies over our head. Last night I saw a couple of satellites passing by and if I had sat down long enough I would see the ISS pass by as well. I have seen the ISS before on nights like yesterday, so I did not feel like seeing it again (also mind it would have been in the middle of the night). About a month ago I sat down to see the ISS pass by 3 times. I could follow it on one of those live trackers and sure thing, when the live ISS tracker said I could see it, I saw a bright light passing by in the night sky. About 90 minutes later again and then again about 90 minutes later I could see it again. It is right there for everyone to see.

The moon landing sites have been spotted by third parties, here from earth, and are verified. There is no reason whatsoever to assume the moon landings were fake. Same like jroa in another thread. "Maybe" doesn't mean anything. "Maybe" they have an agreement. Yes "maybe" the tooth fairy is real too.

Last time I flew in a plane the travelling time on the southern hemisphere were about the same, for a similar flight in distance on the northern hemisphere. The difference between rumb line and the great circle.


The seasons I experience and have witnessed are another thing which matches only with a spherical earth. Or some bizarre things were to happen with the sun and the stars, which would not follow a clear pattern. This which has been demonstrated by one of the round earth members here in detailed calculations.

The viewing distances from higher altitudes could only correspond with a spherical earth. The flat earth has explained it as atmospheric density, but at a higher altitude you look at an angle and you actually look to much more air. Think about it. A right triangle.
If you're on the ground looking at an object at the distance, you will be at C, looking at A. This side is 'b' (mind the capital letters), if you go up 'a', you will be at B, looking down at A through 'c'. 'c' is always the longest side.

The coriolis effect, which corresponds with a spinning earth and which has the opposite effect on the southern hemisphere, only corresponds with a spherical earth.

The fact we have twilight corresponds with a spherical sun. A flat, spotlight-like sun, means the light will just fade away and could not light up higher ground, such as this mountain range.

You say:  "Imagine a universe where starlight travels billions of light years before it even reaches the earth for the first time."

It is not like we are lucky to see the stars. The stars have been around for long before humanity started to exist. The thing is, the light we see left the star a very long time ago, only reaching our planet after such a long time. Because the star has been around much longer, the continious light has been going on for a much longer period. By the way, the nearest star is 4 lightyears away. We look at the star as how it was, 4 years ago. It is like travelling on a ship across the ocean. You set sail from England and a week later you arrive in the US. You have been there all the time, but only when you arrive at the US others can see you. Light is no different, except it is continiously coming towards you. Like a long stream of ships reaching from the English coast to the American coast. Except that wouldn't be very realastic, you could imagine (there's the word again) how this would work for light.

Gravity is another proving thing of a spherical earth. Since gravity differs per region. Therefore the flat earth cannot possibily constantly accelerate upwards. Physically impossible.

The fact the sun, the moon, and other planets are spheres, gives us sufficient ground to believe the earth is as well. Why would the earth be different. Considering all the evidence I have given above, there isn't any reason to assume the earth is different, in fact, rules out any possibility of a flat earth.

I am not sure why  you can't comprehend a spherical earth. There is no reason to even lie about the shape of the earth to begin with, because there is no gain from it. If they would lie about the shape, why not make it a pyramid shape instead? Thing is...the spherical earth corresponds with all our observations thus far.

There is plenty of more that proofs the earth to be a sphere. Just lurk moar.

As for my original topic. If you can imagine a sphere so big.....as a flat earth believer you should consider the earth being in fact a sphere.

Re: Take two
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 08:59:00 AM »
Depending on your philosophy, just because you imagine something does not make it real.

?

robintex

  • Ranters
  • 5322
Re: Take two
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 10:03:40 AM »
Depending on your philosophy, just because you imagine something does not make it real.

I'm not going to name any names or parties involved in this debate , but just who is really imagining something to make it real and just who has evidence that they aren't ?
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: Take two
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 11:00:14 AM »
Depending on your philosophy, just because you imagine something does not make it real.

I'm not going to name any names or parties involved in this debate , but just who is really imagining something to make it real and just who has evidence that they aren't ?

Quote from: Don Quichotte
I need my imagination to see how it would be all possible

?

therationalist56

  • 118
  • A Clueless Man
Re: Take two
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 12:34:26 PM »
I am never going to see the earth from a distance

Why do you believe in things you cannot, and will never, see?

I need my imagination to see how it would be all possible

That seems like some sound methodology there.

Your logic here is an argument from incredulity...that you cannot believe something is possible therefore it is impossible. The logic here is not limited, merely the imagination.
Furthermore, there are many observations both on earth (I refer you to any number of alex's experiments) and in space (such as the fact that astronauts from various countries have indeed seen the curvature of the earth). Additionally, if you claim the astronauts are part of some conspiracy, than your own logic invalidates your claim as you have never seen the conspiracy so how can you know its there?

Re: Take two
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 02:21:29 PM »
Muggy. If you are going to quote me, do it right. Right now you're being very selective in the information you wish to see to make your point. If that is your habit, learn to suppress it. It is not a word you're missing, you're missing entire parts of my sentence. Don't do it again. Very important!

The thing I said is.
I am never going to see the earth from a distance, but I got all the evidence which supports the fact we're living on a spherical earth I need my imagination to see how it would be all possible while still considering all observations, and it all is possible.

Which has a total different meaning then the part you wish to see.

Re: Take two
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2013, 07:19:31 AM »
I am never going to see the earth from a distance

Why do you believe in things you cannot, and will never, see?

I need my imagination to see how it would be all possible

That seems like some sound methodology there.

Your logic here is an argument from incredulity...that you cannot believe something is possible therefore it is impossible. The logic here is not limited, merely the imagination.
Furthermore, there are many observations both on earth (I refer you to any number of alex's experiments) and in space (such as the fact that astronauts from various countries have indeed seen the curvature of the earth). Additionally, if you claim the astronauts are part of some conspiracy, than your own logic invalidates your claim as you have never seen the conspiracy so how can you know its there?

I don't follow your logic. Are you saying that if something seems like it's impossible that it's true?

*

Username

  • Administrator
  • 17562
  • President of The Flat Earth Society
Re: Take two
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2013, 07:27:39 AM »
Believing the earth is infinite is simply believing what your eyes tell you. Until you see an edge, it would be foolish to assume it exists. And we are then presented with what I call the Believers Paradox.

To believe based off of witness can mean very little. One can argue that one cannot believe in the infinite tracks of LanD without seeing them, or that one cannot believe in the edge without seeing it. With this question we are stuck in a muddy land of fuzzy truth. In the end, we choose a guess based off our data, which in my case points to an infinite earth.

People think of truth as this binary concept - something is true or it isn't, or even in a trinary sense - both. The truth is a bit more wacky than that, like a ball of yarn, truths touching falsehoods, and vice versa, in a big mess, paradox being the artifacts in our orders.

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Take two
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2013, 07:33:22 AM »
Believing the earth is infinite is simply believing what your eyes tell you. Until you see an edge, it would be foolish to assume it exists. And we are then presented with what I call the Believers Paradox.

To believe based off of witness can mean very little. One can argue that one cannot believe in the infinite tracks of LanD without seeing them, or that one cannot believe in the edge without seeing it. With this question we are stuck in a muddy land of fuzzy truth. In the end, we choose a guess based off our data, which in my case points to an infinite earth.

People think of truth as this binary concept - something is true or it isn't, or even in a trinary sense - both. The truth is a bit more wacky than that, like a ball of yarn, truths touching falsehoods, and vice versa, in a big mess, paradox being the artifacts in our orders.

Ok, then working with what we do have it seems to me the logical conclusion is a sphere. My observations indicate it so and are backed up by other observations by other people. Then reinforced by what looks like credible evidence.

*

Username

  • Administrator
  • 17562
  • President of The Flat Earth Society
Re: Take two
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2013, 07:36:28 AM »
Believing the earth is infinite is simply believing what your eyes tell you. Until you see an edge, it would be foolish to assume it exists. And we are then presented with what I call the Believers Paradox.

To believe based off of witness can mean very little. One can argue that one cannot believe in the infinite tracks of LanD without seeing them, or that one cannot believe in the edge without seeing it. With this question we are stuck in a muddy land of fuzzy truth. In the end, we choose a guess based off our data, which in my case points to an infinite earth.

People think of truth as this binary concept - something is true or it isn't, or even in a trinary sense - both. The truth is a bit more wacky than that, like a ball of yarn, truths touching falsehoods, and vice versa, in a big mess, paradox being the artifacts in our orders.

Ok, then working with what we do have it seems to me the logical conclusion is a sphere. My observations indicate it so and are backed up by other observations by other people. Then reinforced by what looks like credible evidence.
And I'll argue your right to believe it; just because its a sphere to you, does not mean it is one to me. My observations show me a world much wilder than those in your sciences.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 07:38:15 AM by John Davis »

?

robintex

  • Ranters
  • 5322
Re: Take two
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2013, 10:36:45 AM »
Can you imagine a sphere so big, that if you would stand on its surface, it would actually look flat? If you can't imagine that, I can see why you can't see why the earth is round.

Thing is. I am never going to see the earth from a distance, but I got all the evidence which supports the fact we're living on a spherical earth I need my imagination to see how it would be all possible while still considering all observations, and it all is possible.
I can see how a giant sphere can appear flat, but is in fact still a sphere.

I asked this question to the flat earth believers on a serious note. I saw my question got moved  to the complete nonsense section for presumably no reason. I'll ask just once and one time only to the moderator to take my question seriously. I am taking you seriously, but if you treat me like that....you'll lose all the credibility you have for me! One good turn deserves another!

That being said, I will be looking forward to a serious discussion.

This may seem odd to Flat Earthers, but IMHO for most people ("Round Earthers", that is ) the fact that the earth is a sphere is no problem. And the fact that "it looks flat" is no problem. It's not an item of imagination, it's just an item of logic. At least again IMHO out on the ocean far away from land on a calm, clear day is the best place to observe this..

Just one illustration.:
Take a globe. Then figure out a  scale of so many inches equals so many feet for example. Since the circumference is about 25,000 miles. Or the diameter is about 8,000 miles. Then make a scale model of a person about 6 feet tall and place it on this globe. Then see how flat that globe would look to that scale model person. (Of course if there was such a thing as a micro-camera you could even get photos....Of course Flat Earth discounts any photographic evidence anyway....)

I'll post this theory and let anyone and everyone who wishes to do so to shoot holes in it if they wish. Just call me the ghost of sceptimatic if you wish.  ;D
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Take two
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2013, 10:51:23 AM »
Can you imagine a sphere so big, that if you would stand on its surface, it would actually look flat? If you can't imagine that, I can see why you can't see why the earth is round.

Thing is. I am never going to see the earth from a distance, but I got all the evidence which supports the fact we're living on a spherical earth I need my imagination to see how it would be all possible while still considering all observations, and it all is possible.
I can see how a giant sphere can appear flat, but is in fact still a sphere.

I asked this question to the flat earth believers on a serious note. I saw my question got moved  to the complete nonsense section for presumably no reason. I'll ask just once and one time only to the moderator to take my question seriously. I am taking you seriously, but if you treat me like that....you'll lose all the credibility you have for me! One good turn deserves another!

That being said, I will be looking forward to a serious discussion.

This may seem odd to Flat Earthers, but IMHO for most people ("Round Earthers", that is ) the fact that the earth is a sphere is no problem. And the fact that "it looks flat" is no problem. It's not an item of imagination, it's just an item of logic. At least again IMHO out on the ocean far away from land on a calm, clear day is the best place to observe this..

Just one illustration.:
Take a globe. Then figure out a  scale of so many inches equals so many feet for example. Since the circumference is about 25,000 miles. Or the diameter is about 8,000 miles. Then make a scale model of a person about 6 feet tall and place it on this globe. Then see how flat that globe would look to that scale model person. (Of course if there was such a thing as a micro-camera you could even get photos....Of course Flat Earth discounts any photographic evidence anyway....)

I'll post this theory and let anyone and everyone who wishes to do so to shoot holes in it if they wish. Just call me the ghost of sceptimatic if you wish.  ;D

I posted the following in another thread and I think it should help flat earther imagine what you are saying:

The Earth has a circumference of about 25,000 miles.
 
A baseball has a circumference of about 9 inches.

Lets assume you can see about 50 miles around you in all directions.

If you imagine a baseball is the earth and a to scale version of you was living on it then that 50 mile radius of view would be about .018 inches.

If you could zoom in on that .018 of an inch surface of the baseball wouldn't it look flat? That's how small you are compared to the RE and why it looks flat.

Re: Take two
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2013, 10:58:14 AM »
I think it should help flat earther imagine what you are saying:

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Take two
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2013, 11:00:30 AM »
I think it should help flat earther imagine what you are saying:

There is nothing wrong with my use of the word imagine here. All you really need to imagine is the scale. Using things like a baseball is only to help you because it seems like you can't make the model in your head.

Re: Take two
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2013, 11:03:05 AM »
I think it should help flat earther imagine what you are saying:

There is nothing wrong with my use of the word imagine here. All you really need to imagine is the scale. Using things like a baseball is only to help you because it seems like you can't make the model in your head.
Not so. Can you imagine an Earth that is flat?

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Take two
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2013, 11:04:44 AM »
I think it should help flat earther imagine what you are saying:

There is nothing wrong with my use of the word imagine here. All you really need to imagine is the scale. Using things like a baseball is only to help you because it seems like you can't make the model in your head.
Not so. Can you imagine an Earth that is flat?

Of course I can but when you consider the observations of the sun, moon and celestial objects the imagined flat earth models fall apart.

Re: Take two
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2013, 11:08:56 AM »
I think it should help flat earther imagine what you are saying:

There is nothing wrong with my use of the word imagine here. All you really need to imagine is the scale. Using things like a baseball is only to help you because it seems like you can't make the model in your head.
Not so. Can you imagine an Earth that is flat?

Of course I can but when you consider the observations of the sun, moon and celestial objects the imagined flat earth models fall apart.
Actually the reverse is true. The average Round Earth Indoctrinated has had the crazy rules that govern their universe drilled into his head long enough that he actually starts thinking that they are true. It's no different than Mormons thinking sugar and caffeine are evil.

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Take two
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2013, 11:11:14 AM »
I think it should help flat earther imagine what you are saying:

There is nothing wrong with my use of the word imagine here. All you really need to imagine is the scale. Using things like a baseball is only to help you because it seems like you can't make the model in your head.
Not so. Can you imagine an Earth that is flat?

Of course I can but when you consider the observations of the sun, moon and celestial objects the imagined flat earth models fall apart.
Actually the reverse is true. The average Round Earth Indoctrinated has had the crazy rules that govern their universe drilled into his head long enough that he actually starts thinking that they are true. It's no different than Mormons thinking sugar and caffeine are evil.

This indoctrination argument is just so weak. Please try harder.

Re: Take two
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2013, 11:37:37 AM »
I think it should help flat earther imagine what you are saying:

There is nothing wrong with my use of the word imagine here. All you really need to imagine is the scale. Using things like a baseball is only to help you because it seems like you can't make the model in your head.
Not so. Can you imagine an Earth that is flat?

Of course I can but when you consider the observations of the sun, moon and celestial objects the imagined flat earth models fall apart.
Actually the reverse is true. The average Round Earth Indoctrinated has had the crazy rules that govern their universe drilled into his head long enough that he actually starts thinking that they are true. It's no different than Mormons thinking sugar and caffeine are evil.

This indoctrination argument is just so weak. Please try harder.

You weren't indoctrinated? Where did you learn about things like gravity, satellites, NASA, and balls of nuclear fission burning billions of miles away?

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Take two
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2013, 11:52:45 AM »
I think it should help flat earther imagine what you are saying:

There is nothing wrong with my use of the word imagine here. All you really need to imagine is the scale. Using things like a baseball is only to help you because it seems like you can't make the model in your head.
Not so. Can you imagine an Earth that is flat?

Of course I can but when you consider the observations of the sun, moon and celestial objects the imagined flat earth models fall apart.
Actually the reverse is true. The average Round Earth Indoctrinated has had the crazy rules that govern their universe drilled into his head long enough that he actually starts thinking that they are true. It's no different than Mormons thinking sugar and caffeine are evil.

This indoctrination argument is just so weak. Please try harder.

You weren't indoctrinated? Where did you learn about things like gravity, satellites, NASA, and balls of nuclear fission burning billions of miles away?

School of course. Just like you, fortunately for me the items you've mentioned can be checked and proven true at least to an extent that is more convincing than the things you've been indoctrinated with such as an infinitely accelerating plane, an ice wall holding oceans in, a sun that emits a projection of light or a massive and astronomically expensive global conspiracy.

Re: Take two
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2013, 12:02:03 PM »
I think it should help flat earther imagine what you are saying:

There is nothing wrong with my use of the word imagine here. All you really need to imagine is the scale. Using things like a baseball is only to help you because it seems like you can't make the model in your head.
Not so. Can you imagine an Earth that is flat?

Of course I can but when you consider the observations of the sun, moon and celestial objects the imagined flat earth models fall apart.
Actually the reverse is true. The average Round Earth Indoctrinated has had the crazy rules that govern their universe drilled into his head long enough that he actually starts thinking that they are true. It's no different than Mormons thinking sugar and caffeine are evil.

This indoctrination argument is just so weak. Please try harder.

You weren't indoctrinated? Where did you learn about things like gravity, satellites, NASA, and balls of nuclear fission burning billions of miles away?

School of course. Just like you, fortunately for me the items you've mentioned can be checked and proven true at least to an extent that is more convincing than the things you've been indoctrinated with such as an infinitely accelerating plane, an ice wall holding oceans in, a sun that emits a projection of light or a massive and astronomically expensive global conspiracy.

"Can be?" What have you done personally to confirm your doctrine?