Ancient Hebrew Cosmology

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Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« on: July 18, 2013, 06:08:40 PM »
Is the ancient Hebrew cosmology the true nature of our universe?

It consists of a flat disc shaped earth floating on endless waters of chaos covered by a dome and having the sun, moon and stars traveling within the dome.

that why the sky is blue because there is water on the other side of the crystal dome.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 06:14:26 PM by FlatEARTHER19 »

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hoppy

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2013, 02:56:05 PM »
Is the ancient Hebrew cosmology the true nature of our universe?

It consists of a flat disc shaped earth floating on endless waters of chaos covered by a dome and having the sun, moon and stars traveling within the dome.

that why the sky is blue because there is water on the other side of the crystal dome.
Yes.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2013, 03:15:47 PM »
thanks

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Username

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2013, 06:19:29 AM »
Its A true nature of the universe.
"You are a very reasonable man John." - D1

"The lunatic, the lover, and the poet. Are of imagination all compact" - The Bard

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Adolf Hipster

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2013, 04:41:01 PM »
How do you know the Bible is true?

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2013, 05:30:26 AM »
How do you know the Bible is true?
Because the Bible itself states that it is true and should be taken literally. The Bible also contains documentation of Jesus stating that the Bible is without error and complete. Jesus even said, "Even the ancient Hebrew which contains words that have multiple meanings based on context, using idioms that do not correlate to Gentiles thousands of miles from Israel, 2000 years in the future, using incomplete and inconsistent handwritten copies of copies of manuscripts can never be mistranslated or misinterpreted."

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2013, 07:06:49 AM »
Given a god that seems a silly argument. He could just be correcting errors using man as his tool.

That said, its true|false because there exists a view that holds it is true|false.
"You are a very reasonable man John." - D1

"The lunatic, the lover, and the poet. Are of imagination all compact" - The Bard

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Adolf Hipster

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 07:21:29 AM »
How do you know the Bible is true?
Because the Bible itself states that it is true and should be taken literally. The Bible also contains documentation of Jesus stating that the Bible is without error and complete. Jesus even said, "Even the ancient Hebrew which contains words that have multiple meanings based on context, using idioms that do not correlate to Gentiles thousands of miles from Israel, 2000 years in the future, using incomplete and inconsistent handwritten copies of copies of manuscripts can never be mistranslated or misinterpreted."
How do you know Jesus is the son of God?

Also, I am a cat. I state that this is true and it should be taken literally, for I am literally a cat.
This is obviously not true, so what makes the Bible different?

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2013, 07:43:22 AM »
How do you know the Bible is true?
Because the Bible itself states that it is true and should be taken literally. The Bible also contains documentation of Jesus stating that the Bible is without error and complete. Jesus even said, "Even the ancient Hebrew which contains words that have multiple meanings based on context, using idioms that do not correlate to Gentiles thousands of miles from Israel, 2000 years in the future, using incomplete and inconsistent handwritten copies of copies of manuscripts can never be mistranslated or misinterpreted."
How do you know Jesus is the son of God?

Also, I am a cat. I state that this is true and it should be taken literally, for I am literally a cat.
This is obviously not true, so what makes the Bible different?

The Bible does not claim to be true, inerrant, literal, authentic, complete, or consistent. It's merely a set of selected writings that Saint Jerome considered to be important.

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Pyrolizard

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2013, 07:53:39 AM »
How do you know the Bible is true?
Because the Bible itself states that it is true and should be taken literally. The Bible also contains documentation of Jesus stating that the Bible is without error and complete. Jesus even said, "Even the ancient Hebrew which contains words that have multiple meanings based on context, using idioms that do not correlate to Gentiles thousands of miles from Israel, 2000 years in the future, using incomplete and inconsistent handwritten copies of copies of manuscripts can never be mistranslated or misinterpreted."
How do you know Jesus is the son of God?

Also, I am a cat. I state that this is true and it should be taken literally, for I am literally a cat.
This is obviously not true, so what makes the Bible different?

The Bible does not claim to be true, inerrant, literal, authentic, complete, or consistent. It's merely a set of selected writings that Saint Jerome considered to be important.

How do you know the Bible is true?
Because the Bible itself states that it is true and should be taken literally. The Bible also contains documentation of Jesus stating that the Bible is without error and complete. Jesus even said, "Even the ancient Hebrew which contains words that have multiple meanings based on context, using idioms that do not correlate to Gentiles thousands of miles from Israel, 2000 years in the future, using incomplete and inconsistent handwritten copies of copies of manuscripts can never be mistranslated or misinterpreted."

Muggsy, I direct you to slightly past Muggsy.  May be a good idea to see what he has to say before contradicting him outright.
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Let it always be known that Excelsior John is against democracy.

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Ski

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2013, 04:37:35 PM »
Perhaps he should have used blue text for you.   ::)
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 07:31:56 AM »
How do you know the Bible is true?
Because the Bible itself states that it is true and should be taken literally. The Bible also contains documentation of Jesus stating that the Bible is without error and complete. Jesus even said, "Even the ancient Hebrew which contains words that have multiple meanings based on context, using idioms that do not correlate to Gentiles thousands of miles from Israel, 2000 years in the future, using incomplete and inconsistent handwritten copies of copies of manuscripts can never be mistranslated or misinterpreted."
How do you know Jesus is the son of God?

Also, I am a cat. I state that this is true and it should be taken literally, for I am literally a cat.
This is obviously not true, so what makes the Bible different?

The Bible does not claim to be true, inerrant, literal, authentic, complete, or consistent. It's merely a set of selected writings that Saint Jerome considered to be important.

How do you know the Bible is true?
Because the Bible itself states that it is true and should be taken literally. The Bible also contains documentation of Jesus stating that the Bible is without error and complete. Jesus even said, "Even the ancient Hebrew which contains words that have multiple meanings based on context, using idioms that do not correlate to Gentiles thousands of miles from Israel, 2000 years in the future, using incomplete and inconsistent handwritten copies of copies of manuscripts can never be mistranslated or misinterpreted."

Muggsy, I direct you to slightly past Muggsy.  May be a good idea to see what he has to say before contradicting him outright.

Whoosh!

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Junker

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2013, 04:12:10 PM »
Whoosh!

Muggsy, please don't post low content posts here.  You don't have to stoop to their level.

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therationalist56

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2013, 04:17:30 PM »
How do you know the Bible is true?
Because the Bible itself states that it is true and should be taken literally. The Bible also contains documentation of Jesus stating that the Bible is without error and complete. Jesus even said, "Even the ancient Hebrew which contains words that have multiple meanings based on context, using idioms that do not correlate to Gentiles thousands of miles from Israel, 2000 years in the future, using incomplete and inconsistent handwritten copies of copies of manuscripts can never be mistranslated or misinterpreted."

This argument is completely circular.
1. The bible is infallible because it is the word of God
2. The bible is the word of God the Bible says it is the word of God
3. The word of God is infallible
4. The bible is infallible because it is the word of God
repeat infinitely

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2013, 04:30:10 PM »
How do you know the Bible is true?
Because the Bible itself states that it is true and should be taken literally. The Bible also contains documentation of Jesus stating that the Bible is without error and complete. Jesus even said, "Even the ancient Hebrew which contains words that have multiple meanings based on context, using idioms that do not correlate to Gentiles thousands of miles from Israel, 2000 years in the future, using incomplete and inconsistent handwritten copies of copies of manuscripts can never be mistranslated or misinterpreted."

This argument is completely circular.
1. The bible is infallible because it is the word of God
2. The bible is the word of God the Bible says it is the word of God
3. The word of God is infallible
4. The bible is infallible because it is the word of God
repeat infinitely

Yeah. Plus, Jesus never said that.

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2013, 06:07:50 AM »
Yes but science uses circular logic as well:
Quote
If an object, such as empiricism, exists solely in the mind (or at the very most through action), and our only tool we use to verify it is said tool then we have verified an axiom with itself.

No matter what you take as your root axioms you will end up with a functioning worldview. That is the key. In the end there are axioms in science as simple as "The Bible Is True" that we must take on faith.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 06:10:25 AM by John Davis »
"You are a very reasonable man John." - D1

"The lunatic, the lover, and the poet. Are of imagination all compact" - The Bard

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Username

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2013, 06:13:22 AM »
Jesus never said that.
There definitely seems to be a movement from what is The Christ's passion and worldview to one written by the people at the time and incorporating these Truths as best as could be translated.
"You are a very reasonable man John." - D1

"The lunatic, the lover, and the poet. Are of imagination all compact" - The Bard

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2013, 09:15:22 AM »
Yes but science uses circular logic as well:
Quote
If an object, such as empiricism, exists solely in the mind (or at the very most through action), and our only tool we use to verify it is said tool then we have verified an axiom with itself.

No matter what you take as your root axioms you will end up with a functioning worldview. That is the key. In the end there are axioms in science as simple as "The Bible Is True" that we must take on faith.

Even granting the two are axioms, they are not equal. Having 'faith' that the sun will come up tomorrow as it has in a pattern for thousands of years is not the same as having faith that a number of unverifiable, falsified, absurd, and yes, self contradictory stories written thousands of years ago by various sources.

Science's axiom is 'reality does not contradict itself'

The bible does contradict itself.

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therationalist56

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2013, 12:06:52 PM »
Yes but science uses circular logic as well:
Quote
If an object, such as empiricism, exists solely in the mind (or at the very most through action), and our only tool we use to verify it is said tool then we have verified an axiom with itself.

No matter what you take as your root axioms you will end up with a functioning worldview. That is the key. In the end there are axioms in science as simple as "The Bible Is True" that we must take on faith.

This is merely the ontological argument inappropriately applied to science. What proof do you have that empiricism exists solely in the mind? The fact that you are comparing the so called circular logic of science to the circular logic of the bible is a balance fallacy: the "circular logic" of science has been proven time and time again whereas the circular logic of the bible is, by definition, circular and cannot be proven therefore the two do not merit the same level of scrutiny or debate. Raising the logic of the bible to the same level as the logic of science (circular logic versus proven logic) implies that if science is false then the bible must be true.

EDIT: Additionally, not all science is gathered from empiricism. A good deal of it are derived from mathematical proofs and concepts which cannot be experienced in the way that empiricism describes and also flow in an entirely logical manner. In fact, most of the empirical evidence we have (like for example the observation that gravity causes two masses to accelerate to each other) can be mathematically verified and could have been verified without any observation.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 12:09:43 PM by therationalist56 »

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2013, 10:55:25 PM »
Is the ancient Hebrew cosmology the true nature of our universe?

It consists of a flat disc shaped earth floating on endless waters of chaos covered by a dome and having the sun, moon and stars traveling within the dome.

that why the sky is blue because there is water on the other side of the crystal dome.

Yes. It's not just "Ancient Hebrew Cosmology" it is the inerrant word of God as revealed to the ancient Israelites.

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therationalist56

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2013, 11:16:14 PM »
Yes but science uses circular logic as well:
Quote
If an object, such as empiricism, exists solely in the mind (or at the very most through action), and our only tool we use to verify it is said tool then we have verified an axiom with itself.

No matter what you take as your root axioms you will end up with a functioning worldview. That is the key. In the end there are axioms in science as simple as "The Bible Is True" that we must take on faith.

Also, I forgot to ask...what axioms in science are as simple as "The Bible Is True" that everyone must take on faith?

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2013, 11:17:28 PM »
Is the ancient Hebrew cosmology the true nature of our universe?

It consists of a flat disc shaped earth floating on endless waters of chaos covered by a dome and having the sun, moon and stars traveling within the dome.

that why the sky is blue because there is water on the other side of the crystal dome.

Yes. It's not just "Ancient Hebrew Cosmology" it is the inerrant word of God as revealed to the ancient Israelites.

If you wish for anyone to believe that, then the burden is on you to prove it.

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2013, 11:56:47 PM »
Also, I forgot to ask...what axioms in science are as simple as "The Bible Is True" that everyone must take on faith?

Reason is certainly reliable.  That is a foundational axiom of metaphysical naturalism.

There exists no justification for reason that is not question begging.  You can't use reason to justify reason.  That is circular and self-referential.  If reason can form the foundation of your worldview and you are unable to justify reason (without resorting to reason which would be self-defeatist) then why can't someone found their worldview on the Bible without further justification?

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therationalist56

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2013, 12:04:56 AM »
Also, I forgot to ask...what axioms in science are as simple as "The Bible Is True" that everyone must take on faith?

Reason is certainly reliable.  That is a foundational axiom of metaphysical naturalism.

There exists no justification for reason that is not question begging.  You can't use reason to justify reason.  That is circular and self-referential.  If reason can form the foundation of your worldview and you are unable to justify reason (without resorting to reason which would be self-defeatist) then why can't someone found their worldview on the Bible without further justification?

Firstly, this is not what I asked for. I asked for a single (just one) scientific axiom which is as simple as "The Bible Is True" that everyone must take on faith.

Secondly, what the hell is metaphysical naturalism? I do not know any accredited institution which deals in that. What you are describing is solipsism, that one cannot be sure of anythings existence outside of one's own mind (and one cannot even be sure that exists). Science exists on observation. Gravity pulls things to each other, creatures change overtime, energy is never created nor destroyed. These are observations. Science builds on this and creates mathematical models based on these observations which are then used to describe why these phenomena occur. What part of Newton's gravitational law, the theory of evolution, or the laws of thermodynamics are circular?

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2013, 12:19:56 AM »
This is merely the ontological argument inappropriately applied to science. What proof do you have that empiricism exists solely in the mind? The fact that you are comparing the so called circular logic of science to the circular logic of the bible is a balance fallacy: the "circular logic" of science has been proven time and time again whereas the circular logic of the bible is, by definition, circular and cannot be proven therefore the two do not merit the same level of scrutiny or debate. Raising the logic of the bible to the same level as the logic of science (circular logic versus proven logic) implies that if science is false then the bible must be true.

This matter has nothing to do with the ontologcal argument, it is a matter of epistemic foundation and internal consistency.  At the bottom of the creationist worldview is the Bible.  At the bottom of the metaphysical naturalist world view is reason.  There exists no justification for reason in metaphysical naturalism, it is just a brute fact that is accepted essentially on faith and justified in purely pragmatic terms.  I know of no deductive argument that justifies reason as a foundation for metaphysical naturalism that is not question begging.  Just as you can't use the Bible to justify the Bible you can't use reason to justify reason.  Using reason to justify reason -- which is what you are implicitly doing -- is just as circular and self-referential as using the Bible to justify the Bible.

The Young Earth Creationist worldview is just as internally consistent as the metaphysical naturalist worldview that you are appealing to.  External incosistency can't be use as an argument against a another worldview because that amounts to the arbitrary privileging of one worldview over another.  Yes, YEC is externally incosistent with matephysical naturalism but so what?

Quote
EDIT: Additionally, not all science is gathered from empiricism. A good deal of it are derived from mathematical proofs and concepts which cannot be experienced in the way that empiricism describes and also flow in an entirely logical manner. In fact, most of the empirical evidence we have (like for example the observation that gravity causes two masses to accelerate to each other) can be mathematically verified and could have been verified without any observation.

You are correct that not all of science is based on empricism, in practoce it is based on a blend of rationalism and empricism and this manifests itself in the use of inductive logic and deductive logic.  However you are mistaken about the relationship between mathematics and the physical world.  Only those that believe in Platonic realism subscribe to your belief.  (Also it can be argued that Platonic realism is inconsistent with metaphysical naturalism.) Mathematical concepts aren't "out there" floating in space waiting to be discovered.  They are human artifacts.  Applied mathematics is able to describe the physical world because it was designed (by humans) to do that.  The physical world exhibits an ordered regularity and we invent mathematical concepts to facilitate the description of that regularity and the final equations are described as laws.  The physical world doesn't have "laws of physics" in it, it just has regluar behaviour.  Mathematics is a descriptive and analytical language that we invented and develop to aid our description of the world.  There are no such things as imaginary numbers and complex numbers, they were invented because they enable use to model certain aspects of the physical world.  Broadly speaking it is no more remarkable that there as verbs to describe actions than there are equations to describe (and predict) physical phenomena.

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therationalist56

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2013, 12:36:29 AM »
This is merely the ontological argument inappropriately applied to science. What proof do you have that empiricism exists solely in the mind? The fact that you are comparing the so called circular logic of science to the circular logic of the bible is a balance fallacy: the "circular logic" of science has been proven time and time again whereas the circular logic of the bible is, by definition, circular and cannot be proven therefore the two do not merit the same level of scrutiny or debate. Raising the logic of the bible to the same level as the logic of science (circular logic versus proven logic) implies that if science is false then the bible must be true.

This matter has nothing to do with the ontologcal argument, it is a matter of epistemic foundation and internal consistency.  At the bottom of the creationist worldview is the Bible.  At the bottom of the metaphysical naturalist world view is reason.  There exists no justification for reason in metaphysical naturalism, it is just a brute fact that is accepted essentially on faith and justified in purely pragmatic terms.  I know of no deductive argument that justifies reason as a foundation for metaphysical naturalism that is not question begging.  Just as you can't use the Bible to justify the Bible you can't use reason to justify reason.  Using reason to justify reason -- which is what you are implicitly doing -- is just as circular and self-referential as using the Bible to justify the Bible.

The Young Earth Creationist worldview is just as internally consistent as the metaphysical naturalist worldview that you are appealing to.  External incosistency can't be use as an argument against a another worldview because that amounts to the arbitrary privileging of one worldview over another.  Yes, YEC is externally incosistent with matephysical naturalism but so what?

Quote
EDIT: Additionally, not all science is gathered from empiricism. A good deal of it are derived from mathematical proofs and concepts which cannot be experienced in the way that empiricism describes and also flow in an entirely logical manner. In fact, most of the empirical evidence we have (like for example the observation that gravity causes two masses to accelerate to each other) can be mathematically verified and could have been verified without any observation.

You are correct that not all of science is based on empricism, in practoce it is based on a blend of rationalism and empricism and this manifests itself in the use of inductive logic and deductive logic.  However you are mistaken about the relationship between mathematics and the physical world.  Only those that believe in Platonic realism subscribe to your belief.  (Also it can be argued that Platonic realism is inconsistent with metaphysical naturalism.) Mathematical concepts aren't "out there" floating in space waiting to be discovered.  They are human artifacts.  Applied mathematics is able to describe the physical world because it was designed (by humans) to do that.  The physical world exhibits an ordered regularity and we invent mathematical concepts to facilitate the description of that regularity and the final equations are described as laws.  The physical world doesn't have "laws of physics" in it, it just has regluar behaviour.  Mathematics is a descriptive and analytical language that we invented and develop to aid our description of the world.  There are no such things as imaginary numbers and complex numbers, they were invented because they enable use to model certain aspects of the physical world.  Broadly speaking it is no more remarkable that there as verbs to describe actions than there are equations to describe (and predict) physical phenomena.

I refer you to my above response. But, just in case you decide not to read it or you missed it or something I will reiterate it.
First, what is metaphysical naturalism. Metaphysics is a pseudoscience and naturalism is the study of nature. What they mean together is anyone's guess.

Second, science is not reason justified by reason. Science is observation (italicized to emphasis my point) put together into mathematical or verbal models which are then put together into the highest level of science known as theories. For example, the observation that in any chemical reaction, matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed has led to the law of conservation of mass and the law of conservation of energy. This, in turn, contributes to many theories such as quantum theory. Where, in this flow, is there reason being used to justify reason. All I see is observation being explained. The bible, on the other hand, flows like this:The bible is infallible. It is infallible because it is the word of God. The bible says the word of God is infallible. Repeat.

Thirdly, give me an alternate view of the many laws which near as hell perfectly describe the real world? P = mv (momentum) F = ma (force) V = IR (voltage, current, resistance). The real world does have laws, that is what makes the real world different than a fantasy novel. The laws can be, and have been, demonstrated over and over again.

Fourthly, what is the difference between what you call ordered regularity and what the rest of the world calls the laws of physics.

Fifthly, when have the laws of physics as we know them today ever been falsified?

Sixthly, your attempt at a gish gallop is quite juvenile.

Finally, you have never addressed my question of giving me a specific example (just one will do) of science basing reason on reason

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2013, 12:40:48 AM »
Firstly, this is not what I asked for. I asked for a single (just one) scientific axiom which is as simple as "The Bible Is True" that everyone must take on faith.

Science and the scientific method are ultimately predicated on reason and rationality.  What is the justification of reason and rationality that does not itself rely on reason and rationality.  Justify your reliance on reason without recourse to reason.  Why should I believe that reason is certainly reliable as a means of acquiring knowledge?  How can you justify reason

Quote
Secondly, what the hell is metaphysical naturalism? I do not know any accredited institution which deals in that.

Metaphysica naturalism is another name for scientific materialism and it is the foundation of your worldview.  It is standard terminology in the philosophy of science lexicon.

Quote
What you are describing is solipsism, that one cannot be sure of anythings existence outside of one's own mind (and one cannot even be sure that exists). Science exists on observation. Gravity pulls things to each other, creatures change overtime, energy is never created nor destroyed. These are observations. Science builds on this and creates mathematical models based on these observations which are then used to describe why these phenomena occur. What part of Newton's gravitational law, the theory of evolution, or the laws of thermodynamics are circular?

No, solipsism is irrelevant and and I am not implicitly nor explicitly appealing to that idea nor anything like it.  You are presenting a cicular argument.  I am asking you to justify the epistemic foundations of your worldview without begging the question, i.e. assuming that which you need to demonstrate.  You are essentially arguing that science is epistemically justified by science which is self-referential and circular.  No one argued that Newton's Laws or the laws of thermodynamics are themselves circular.  What I proposed was that science ultimately rests on the validity of reason as a means of knowledge acquisition yet there exists no justification for reason, its validity and efficacy is ultimately taken on faith.  Unless you can provide a justification for reliance on reason that is not question begging your foundation is no more justified than the creationists foundation in the Bible.  You can't use scientfic inquiry to justify the metaphysical assumptions of scientific inquiry and you can't use reason to justify the metaphysical assumptions of reason and that is what you are doing whilst at the same time criticising creationists for using the Bible to justify the Bible.  The issue here is the epistemic foundation of one's worldview.  Science relies on deductive and inductive logic which are in turn based on reason.  What is the justification for reason as an innerrant means of determining the truth?

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therationalist56

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2013, 12:48:37 AM »
Firstly, this is not what I asked for. I asked for a single (just one) scientific axiom which is as simple as "The Bible Is True" that everyone must take on faith.

Science and the scientific method are ultimately predicated on reason and rationality.  What is the justification of reason and rationality that does not itself rely on reason and rationality.  Justify your reliance on reason without recourse to reason.  Why should I believe that reason is certainly reliable as a means of acquiring knowledge?  How can you justify reason

Quote
Secondly, what the hell is metaphysical naturalism? I do not know any accredited institution which deals in that.

Metaphysica naturalism is another name for scientific materialism and it is the foundation of your worldview.  It is standard terminology in the philosophy of science lexicon.

Quote
What you are describing is solipsism, that one cannot be sure of anythings existence outside of one's own mind (and one cannot even be sure that exists). Science exists on observation. Gravity pulls things to each other, creatures change overtime, energy is never created nor destroyed. These are observations. Science builds on this and creates mathematical models based on these observations which are then used to describe why these phenomena occur. What part of Newton's gravitational law, the theory of evolution, or the laws of thermodynamics are circular?

No, solipsism is irrelevant and and I am not implicitly nor explicitly appealing to that idea nor anything like it.  You are presenting a cicular argument.  I am asking you to justify the epistemic foundations of your worldview without begging the question, i.e. assuming that which you need to demonstrate.  You are essentially arguing that science is epistemically justified by science which is self-referential and circular.  No one argued that Newton's Laws or the laws of thermodynamics are themselves circular.  What I proposed was that science ultimately rests on the validity of reason as a means of knowledge acquisition yet there exists no justification for reason, its validity and efficacy is ultimately taken on faith.  Unless you can provide a justification for reliance on reason that is not question begging your foundation is no more justified than the creationists foundation in the Bible.  You can't use scientfic inquiry to justify the metaphysical assumptions of scientific inquiry and you can't use reason to justify the metaphysical assumptions of reason and that is what you are doing whilst at the same time criticising creationists for using the Bible to justify the Bible.  The issue here is the epistemic foundation of one's worldview.  Science relies on deductive and inductive logic which are in turn based on reason.  What is the justification for reason as an innerrant means of determining the truth?

Your giving me a headache, which I assume is your purpose here. You just said that newtons laws of gravitation and the laws of thermodynamics are circular. Why does that not invalidate your argument. Also you are not listening to me. I am not saying science is based on reason justified by reason. Science is based on observing the universe and explaining the observation. Why is that circular?
Also, you still are stating that science and the scientific method are circular without giving an example of anything (a single field of study, theory, law, anything really) which is circular. You cannot claim science is circular, ignore evidence to which it is not, than not give any evidence that it is. You are merely stating points which I have refuted mainly that the reason science uses is circular. However, as I have stated science observes phenomena than explains it. How is that circular.

EDIT: I think I know your game...you want me to say science is not based on reason but rather observation. This is not true. Science is based on observation and explanation. As soon as the explanation stops explaining the observations, the explanation is changed. Reason (I've been assuming you mean logical reasoning whenever you say logic) if there because science can be proven. Reason is based on proof which science has. Reason is not based on reason.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 12:51:42 AM by therationalist56 »

Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2013, 12:53:28 AM »
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Finally, you have never addressed my question of giving me a specific example (just one will do) of science basing reason on reason

Yes I did you just didn't understand it.  The scientific method hinges on the validity of inductive reasoning yet there exists no argument for the validity of inductive reasoning that is not itself based on inductive reasoning.  The problem of induction is an outstanding problem in the philosophy of science.  Popper "solved" this problem by discarding inductive logic altogether but is broader theory of falsificationism did not prevail.  So do you have a deductive argument for the validity of inductive logic?

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therationalist56

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Re: Ancient Hebrew Cosmology
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2013, 12:56:15 AM »
lelord: To answer your question...scientific reason and logic is based on proof and observation. We can justify the reasoning behind saying that the acceleration due to gravity on earth is 9.8 m/s/s not only because we can mathematically calculate but ultimately because we can drop a ball and observe its acceleration. Same goes for the laws of thermodynamics: we observe the chemical reaction and based on that proof the reasoning behind the laws of thermodynamics become clear. To reiterate, scientific reason is not justified by reason but is justified through proof. Biblical reason and flat earth reason however are not. They cannot demonstrate that their claims are true and in many cases are circular (such as the bible being assumed to be true). There simply isn't proof which can be repeatedly demonstrated in an experiment.