Do any FE believers believe in God?

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Do any FE believers believe in God?
« on: July 15, 2013, 04:02:22 PM »
Serious question, I hear so much about denying dogma and breaking free of indoctrination. So it seems only logical that every single FE supporter is atheist. Am I correct there?


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Thork

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 04:05:44 PM »
Serious question, I hear so much about denying dogma and breaking free of indoctrination. So it seems only logical that every single FE supporter is atheist. Am I correct there?
No. I happen to be a Deist. There are a few other Deists. FErs are mostly those repugnant atheists and we have a few traditional God botherers.

Religion is not the reason we think the earth is flat. Its a fairly mixed bunch.

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Rama Set

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 04:07:46 PM »
Serious question, I hear so much about denying dogma and breaking free of indoctrination. So it seems only logical that every single FE supporter is atheist. Am I correct there?
FErs are mostly those repugnant atheists and we have a few traditional God botherers.

How do you know we are mostly Atheists? 
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 04:17:00 PM »


How do you know we are mostly Atheists?
[/quote]

I don't know. That's why I asked. If you can't accept something with sufficient evidence such as the earth being round I don't understand how you could suspend belief for a deity. This is no slam on religion, just a logical conclusion I came to.

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spoon

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 04:26:40 PM »
I suppose I might be a deist as well. I might be agnostic, though. I don't know. I believe that there is a good chance that some form of "god" exists, however, I see no reason to change the way I live because of it.
I work nights are get the feeling of impennding doom for things most people take for granted.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 04:30:05 PM »
I don't know. That's why I asked. If you can't accept something with sufficient evidence such as the earth being round I don't understand how you could suspend belief for a deity. This is no slam on religion, just a logical conclusion I came to.

Well, very good.  A great many FEers who have frequented this site have been and are atheists.  I myself am a deist, like Ivan.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 04:41:21 PM »
We have hoppy, who is a devoted Christian.

Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 04:48:38 PM »
I suppose I might be a deist as well. I might be agnostic, though. I don't know. I believe that there is a good chance that some form of "god" exists, however, I see no reason to change the way I live because of it.

I can definitely agree with that. There is a philosophy known as apatheism which pretty much describes that perspective. That the existence of a deity bears little to no influence on human behavior.

Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 05:24:44 PM »
Deist here.

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Junker

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 08:42:31 PM »
I am an atheist.  Although I am not sure what one's belief on this matter has to do with the shape of the Earth.

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Tausami

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 09:03:10 PM »
I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 09:06:33 PM by Tausami »

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2013, 09:15:25 PM »
I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Rama Set

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2013, 09:23:08 PM »
I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.

The properties are part of the definition, especially if you are engaging in a philosophical conversation. 
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Tausami

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2013, 09:25:10 PM »
I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.

You just said that God is the thing that created everything except for himself, which is a circular definition. You can't define something in terms of itself.

Our idea of God is really not all that well conceived. The religious say that this is due to His being outside of our understanding, but I rather think it's because the definition is rubbish. It's like debating about the existence of a line which is straighter than perfectly straight. We have to figure out what we're talking about before we can talk about it.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2013, 09:28:14 PM »
I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.

The properties are part of the definition, especially if you are engaging in a philosophical conversation.

No, they aren't.  If you are having a philosophical conversation the definition remains the same.  It is, again, only the properties that are in question.

I'm sorry, but this feels like the type of argument atheists love to use to show that God can't exist because it's impossible for a being to be omnipotent or a thousand other strawmen.

I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.

You just said that God is the thing that created everything except for himself

I did not.

Quote
Our idea of God is really not all that well conceived. The religious say that this is due to His being outside of our understanding, but I rather think it's because the definition is rubbish. It's like debating about the existence of a line which is straighter than perfectly straight. We have to figure out what we're talking about before we can talk about it.

However you want to complicate by starting to discuss His properties, the definition itself remains fixed and rigid, just like the definition of a straight line.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Tausami

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2013, 09:31:53 PM »
I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.

The properties are part of the definition, especially if you are engaging in a philosophical conversation.

No, they aren't.  If you are having a philosophical conversation the definition remains the same.  It is, again, only the properties that are in question.

I'm sorry, but this feels like the type of argument atheists love to use to show that God can't exist because it's impossible for a being to be omnipotent or a thousand other strawmen.

I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.

You just said that God is the thing that created everything except for himself

I did not.

Quote
Our idea of God is really not all that well conceived. The religious say that this is due to His being outside of our understanding, but I rather think it's because the definition is rubbish. It's like debating about the existence of a line which is straighter than perfectly straight. We have to figure out what we're talking about before we can talk about it.

However you want to complicate by starting to discuss His properties, the definition itself remains fixed and rigid, just like the definition of a straight line.

Ah, but we are not discussing the straight line. We are discussing the line which is straighter than the straight line. Could it exist?Sure, if we start taking non-3-dimensional perspectives into account. But what are we talking about?

You called God the being which willfully created the universe. The universe is everything. Therefore, God created everything, presumably except for himself. This is a circular definition.

I'm not trying to say that God can't exist. I'm saying that in addition to the fact that it's impossible to know whether or not he exists, as agnostics say, we aren't really even sure what 'He' is. It's strong agnosticism, not strong atheism.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 09:34:47 PM by Tausami »

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2013, 09:34:47 PM »
I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.

The properties are part of the definition, especially if you are engaging in a philosophical conversation.

No, they aren't.  If you are having a philosophical conversation the definition remains the same.  It is, again, only the properties that are in question.

I'm sorry, but this feels like the type of argument atheists love to use to show that God can't exist because it's impossible for a being to be omnipotent or a thousand other strawmen.

I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.

You just said that God is the thing that created everything except for himself

I did not.

Quote
Our idea of God is really not all that well conceived. The religious say that this is due to His being outside of our understanding, but I rather think it's because the definition is rubbish. It's like debating about the existence of a line which is straighter than perfectly straight. We have to figure out what we're talking about before we can talk about it.

However you want to complicate by starting to discuss His properties, the definition itself remains fixed and rigid, just like the definition of a straight line.

Ah, but we are not discussing the straight line. We are discussing the line which is straighter than the straight line.

No, we're not.  We're discussing God.

Quote
You called God the being which willfully created the universe. The universe is everything. Therefore, God created everything, presumably except for himself. This is a circular definition.

And why would you presume that?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Tausami

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2013, 09:36:28 PM »
I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.

The properties are part of the definition, especially if you are engaging in a philosophical conversation.

No, they aren't.  If you are having a philosophical conversation the definition remains the same.  It is, again, only the properties that are in question.

I'm sorry, but this feels like the type of argument atheists love to use to show that God can't exist because it's impossible for a being to be omnipotent or a thousand other strawmen.

I'm personally ignostic. You have to actually define 'God' before you can even begin to reasonably form an opinion as to its existence.

In what way is the definition of God in dispute?  In modern usage its definition as a being that willfully created the universe is not in dispute.  It's only the properties that we ascribe to such a being that seem to be in question.

You just said that God is the thing that created everything except for himself

I did not.

Quote
Our idea of God is really not all that well conceived. The religious say that this is due to His being outside of our understanding, but I rather think it's because the definition is rubbish. It's like debating about the existence of a line which is straighter than perfectly straight. We have to figure out what we're talking about before we can talk about it.

However you want to complicate by starting to discuss His properties, the definition itself remains fixed and rigid, just like the definition of a straight line.

Ah, but we are not discussing the straight line. We are discussing the line which is straighter than the straight line.

No, we're not.  We're discussing God.

Quote
You called God the being which willfully created the universe. The universe is everything. Therefore, God created everything, presumably except for himself. This is a circular definition.

And why would you presume that?

Exactly.

But let's presume otherwise, shall we? He is the thing which created itself, in addition to everything else. That definition isn't any better.

@OP: Yes, this is what it's always like here.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 10:10:16 PM by Tausami »

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darknavyseal

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2013, 11:46:36 PM »
Christian here.  ;D

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2013, 10:50:10 PM »
But let's presume otherwise, shall we? He is the thing which created itself, in addition to everything else. That definition isn't any better.

Why not?  Parsifal has assured me in the past that a black hole can create itself.  Surely this isn't above the abilities of a being like God?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Art

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2013, 03:04:28 AM »
Why not?  Parsifal has assured me in the past that a black hole can create itself.  Surely this isn't above the abilities of a being like God?

Lol, great.
Then where are the rest of the infinite number of them?
Or are the rest of them agreeing not to create themselves?

I wonder if they argued between themselves over which of the infinite potential Gods would get to exist,
or if they drew straws like gentlemen.
RET:0 - FET:0

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Art

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2013, 03:17:30 AM »
One more thing,
If things can create themselves, then a God would only get in the way of the Universe getting it's job done.
RET:0 - FET:0

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Username

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2013, 06:04:52 AM »
God is the anthropomorphic abstract we have for the higher realm of the abstract which gives all in this world meaning and nature.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2013, 06:48:26 AM »
Why not?  Parsifal has assured me in the past that a black hole can create itself.  Surely this isn't above the abilities of a being like God?

Lol, great.
Then where are the rest of the infinite number of them?
Or are the rest of them agreeing not to create themselves?

I wonder if they argued between themselves over which of the infinite potential Gods would get to exist,
or if they drew straws like gentlemen.

I'm sorry, what are you babbling about?  ???

One more thing,
If things can create themselves, then a God would only get in the way of the Universe getting it's job done.

Without God the universe could never have developed as it did.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Art

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2013, 07:28:45 AM »
I can rephrase that then...

If a dumb black hole can create itself, and an intelligent God can create itself,
then surely, is it outside the ability of a Universe to create itself too?

Why do you need to shovel a God into the story that existed first?
RET:0 - FET:0

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Username

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2013, 07:40:38 AM »
I can rephrase that then...

If a dumb black hole can create itself, and an intelligent God can create itself,
then surely, is it outside the ability of a Universe to create itself too?

Why do you need to shovel a God into the story that existed first?
The question of God is the question of order from chaos. Whether you give him a beard, a reversed time arrow, or simply the name "order" is a matter of framing and subjective assessment. Its simply a name you put on "nature" or rather the holes in our understanding of nature and our inserted guesses to these holes.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 07:45:01 AM by John Davis »

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Tausami

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2013, 09:28:48 AM »
But let's presume otherwise, shall we? He is the thing which created itself, in addition to everything else. That definition isn't any better.

Why not?  Parsifal has assured me in the past that a black hole can create itself.  Surely this isn't above the abilities of a being like God?

Rif.org

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Junker

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2013, 09:49:49 AM »
This thread has turned into a God discussion and doesn't really have any bearing on FE in particular.  Moving to PR&S.

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Art

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Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2013, 09:59:25 AM »
I can rephrase that then...

If a dumb black hole can create itself, and an intelligent God can create itself,
then surely, is it outside the ability of a Universe to create itself too?

Why do you need to shovel a God into the story that existed first?
The question of God is the question of order from chaos. Whether you give him a beard, a reversed time arrow, or simply the name "order" is a matter of framing and subjective assessment. Its simply a name you put on "nature" or rather the holes in our understanding of nature and our inserted guesses to these holes.

But the question is only being asked because your calling it him, and it has also been called a being in the thread by Roundy.
That implies that an intelligent thing created itself, and then created lesser things.
It seems less complicated for me not to introduce the word God unless talking about an intelligent being,
or to accept that it's simpler for the less complicated thing (the Universe) could have come about by natural occurrence
than the more complicated thing (the intelligent God being, who then went on to create a universe).

It occurs to me that any story with "God" in it can be abbreviated to make it more plausible, by taking the "God" out of it.

RET:0 - FET:0

Re: Do any FE believers believe in God?
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2013, 10:06:03 AM »
Technically WE are God.  We create things all the time.  Even our thoughts and emotions manifest into matter.  Someone once told me that humans are all fragments of ONE Creator....one conscience.   If that's true, we all have created ourselves.