Summer/Winter

Quote from: Scintific Method on July 16, 2013, 03:52:28 PM

BTW, I'd love to see what the sun's path is supposed to be for your bipolar map Tom! Particularly on the two solstices, and the equinoxes. Perhaps in a new thread though?

I know I'm not Tom but this has been covered.  Tom needs to focus on the things that haven't been covered.

[outstanding animations]

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

That's an outstanding animation! Thanks FlatOrange! The way the "spotlight" has to behave, and the way the sun sort of "whips" around part of it's very oddly shaped route are very interesting phenomena. As Shmeggley said, it's rather mesmerising!

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

What makes you think that South America and Australia were on exactly opposite sides of the map?

It is common knowledge that map you are using is just a visual representation mock-up, and is just a north-polarized projection of the Round Earth model. No study went into its creation.

Rowbotham's society only ever studied 1/8th of the earth surface before his death, a slice of the earth consisting of Europe and Africa. He was able to use testimonies, ship logs and geographic surveys to prove that Africa was wider than it was long, contrary to the Round Earth theory. There is a map foldout of the 1/8th slice in the book Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood. No further study of the earth's continents has occurred since.

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 16, 2013, 03:26:46 PM

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

What makes you think that South America and Australia were on exactly opposite sides of the map?

It is common knowledge that map you are using is just a visual representation mock-up, and is just a north-polarized projection of the Round Earth model. No study went into its creation.

Rowbotham's society only ever studied 1/8th of the earth surface before his death, a slice of the earth consisting of Europe and Africa. He was able to use ships logs and geographic surveys to prove that Africa was wider than it was long, contrary to the Round Earth theory. There is a map foldout of the 1/8th slice in the book Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood. No further study of the earth's continents has occurred since.

Sounds like a completely scientific theory if the death of one person over 130 years ago stops all progress on it. I'm so glad you're such a free-thinker and not a sheep following a 130-years-dead person like ... oh, wait.

In all honesty, this age of inter-connectivity surely could bring a study of the continents together! What a golden opportunity to build a real FE model than today?

Sounds like a completely scientific theory if the death of one person over 130 years ago stops all progress on it. I'm so glad you're such a free-thinker and not a sheep following a 130-years-dead person like ... oh, wait.

In all honesty, this age of inter-connectivity surely could bring a study of the continents together! What a golden opportunity to build a real FE model than today?

Samuel Birley Rowbotham was a rich medical doctor and proprietor of pharmaceutical company. We have nowhere close to the resources the original society had.

Members of the original Flat Earth Society (then called the Universal Zetetic Society) had enough resources to publish monthly 300+ page journals of their studies, write numerous books, and engage in debates at universities all over Britain on the subject. At one point there was even an entire city in Illinois where Flat Earth Theory was taught in the schools.

They had a bigger budget and better funding, which trumps any "modern" conveniences.

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on July 16, 2013, 11:17:30 PM

Sounds like a completely scientific theory if the death of one person over 130 years ago stops all progress on it. I'm so glad you're such a free-thinker and not a sheep following a 130-years-dead person like ... oh, wait.

In all honesty, this age of inter-connectivity surely could bring a study of the continents together! What a golden opportunity to build a real FE model than today?

Samuel Birley Rowbotham was a rich medical doctor and proprietor of pharmaceutical company. We have nowhere close to the resources the original society had.

Members of the original Flat Earth Society (then called the Universal Zetetic Society) had enough resources to publish monthly 300+ page journals of their studies, write numerous books, and engage in debates at universities all over Britain on the subject. At one point there was even an entire city in Illinois where Flat Earth Theory was taught in the schools.

They had a bigger budget and better funding, which trumps any "modern" conveniences.

Modern conveniences like web cams on every continent, weather balloons that can carry digital cameras, world-wide communication, CAD programs where you can draw 1:1 real-world scenarios, free ways of publishing online journals, images of every coast known to man... Yeah, we're really lacking compared to the golden age of the 19th century.

Tom Bishop, you are blatantly using a wrong map to try to explain away the flat earth theory? Talking about indoctrination...
Now you're trying to find excuses, not to take responsibility yourself. Be straightforward and agree that the spherical diagram is the only workable diagram.

Up untill now you have not given any alternative explanation which could work for a flat earth.



 

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2013, 11:58:53 PM

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on July 16, 2013, 11:17:30 PM

Sounds like a completely scientific theory if the death of one person over 130 years ago stops all progress on it. I'm so glad you're such a free-thinker and not a sheep following a 130-years-dead person like ... oh, wait.

In all honesty, this age of inter-connectivity surely could bring a study of the continents together! What a golden opportunity to build a real FE model than today?

Samuel Birley Rowbotham was a rich medical doctor and proprietor of pharmaceutical company. We have nowhere close to the resources the original society had.

Members of the original Flat Earth Society (then called the Universal Zetetic Society) had enough resources to publish monthly 300+ page journals of their studies, write numerous books, and engage in debates at universities all over Britain on the subject. At one point there was even an entire city in Illinois where Flat Earth Theory was taught in the schools.

They had a bigger budget and better funding, which trumps any "modern" conveniences.

Modern conveniences like web cams on every continent, weather balloons that can carry digital cameras, world-wide communication, CAD programs where you can draw 1:1 real-world scenarios, free ways of publishing online journals, images of every coast known to man... Yeah, we're really lacking compared to the golden age of the 19th century.

The 19th century had all of that. It just cost more.

Webcams on every continent = People on every continent
Weather balloons with digital cameras = Hot air baloons with people on them
World wide communication = Hand written letters
CAD programs where you can draw 1:1 real-world scenarios = Trial and error with building physical materials
Free way of publishing online journals = Traditional academic journals
Images of every coast known to man = Worldwide exploratory and surveying ships

Modern conveniences are just that - conveniences - nothing more.

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 17, 2013, 01:03:02 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2013, 11:58:53 PM

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on July 16, 2013, 11:17:30 PM

Sounds like a completely scientific theory if the death of one person over 130 years ago stops all progress on it. I'm so glad you're such a free-thinker and not a sheep following a 130-years-dead person like ... oh, wait.

In all honesty, this age of inter-connectivity surely could bring a study of the continents together! What a golden opportunity to build a real FE model than today?

Samuel Birley Rowbotham was a rich medical doctor and proprietor of pharmaceutical company. We have nowhere close to the resources the original society had.

Members of the original Flat Earth Society (then called the Universal Zetetic Society) had enough resources to publish monthly 300+ page journals of their studies, write numerous books, and engage in debates at universities all over Britain on the subject. At one point there was even an entire city in Illinois where Flat Earth Theory was taught in the schools.

They had a bigger budget and better funding, which trumps any "modern" conveniences.

Modern conveniences like web cams on every continent, weather balloons that can carry digital cameras, world-wide communication, CAD programs where you can draw 1:1 real-world scenarios, free ways of publishing online journals, images of every coast known to man... Yeah, we're really lacking compared to the golden age of the 19th century.

The 19th century had all of that. It just cost more.

Webcams on every continent = People on every continent
Weather balloons with digital cameras = Hot air baloons with people on them
World wide communication = Hand written letters
CAD programs where you can draw 1:1 real-world scenarios = Trial and error with building physical materials
Free way of publishing online journals = Physical academic journals
Images of every coast known to man = Worldwide exploratory and surveying ships

So you agree then that we have everything that was available to Rowboatham, only better, and within reach of the average person. So what's the problem?

So you agree then that we have everything that was available to Rowboatham, only better, and within reach of the average person. So what's the problem?

The fact that books and studies can be published online for free does not the consider the cost in man hours to research and write those books and studies, or do the background research for it.

Many of these topics brought up on this form require us to perform experiments and gather data, much of which is limited by your so called "modern conveniences". How am I supposed to get a true latitude reading of the sun at equinox from a webcam on the internet when none of them are looking at the sun? Rowbotham's society had the luxury of just sending someone there, or paying someone there to do it.

Also, shipping companies don't post their logs on the internet, making the armchair studies you are suggesting, impossible. To make a credible study you need to perform real research.

Tom. Sending up a weather balloon is actually a very cheap way to verify the shape of the earth. Collect the money from this community, the costs for such an experiment are perhaps as little as $100.

Oh and Tom, not to stray away from the subject. How about a workable diagram which matches the observations? You already believe the earth is flat, so why not show what convinced you and takes away all the doubt?

Tom. Sending up a weather balloon is actually a very cheap way to verify the shape of the earth. Collect the money from this community, the costs for such an experiment are perhaps as little as $100.

But we do not discount what is observed at the edge of space by high altitude balloons, launched by entities unconnected to NASA. For example, this MIT Edge of Space balloon shows us that we are looking down at a disk of light.

Tom. Sending up a weather balloon is actually a very cheap way to verify the shape of the earth. Collect the money from this community, the costs for such an experiment are perhaps as little as $100.

Not to stop a discussion that'll no doubt be full of new insights, this isn't the topic for discussing the shape of the Earth from 100,000 feet. This is about the length of days during the northern winter.

I've thought using weather balloons would be great way to survey a coast line. Compare it to charts and maps already in use. Sure beats the way Captain Cook had to do it but that way is an option too.

Quote from another thread by Aevan. Quote is from the "Balloon" thread. [/u]


^^^^^^^

That is explained with the diagram below.

Aevan, I applaud your effort, but just like Tom, nice try but no. No answer.
As has been mentioned in this thread. There are cities around the world who receive sunlight. Tom Bishop showed a diagram in which the spotlight circle could light up all the cities mentioned. However this raised the problem that the northpole would be lit up as well, which does not correspond with the real world observations of the northern hemisphere in winter.

A smaller circle, which you showed in your diagram, means that the mentioned cities do not receive sunlight simultaneously, thus conflicting with real world observations.

Either way the diagrams do not explain real world examples and the issue of summer/winter on a flat earth still remains unsolved. Again, the summer/winter observations do work on a spherical model. These diagrams have been shown on page 2 of this thread.

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 17, 2013, 01:03:02 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2013, 11:58:53 PM

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on July 16, 2013, 11:17:30 PM

Sounds like a completely scientific theory if the death of one person over 130 years ago stops all progress on it. I'm so glad you're such a free-thinker and not a sheep following a 130-years-dead person like ... oh, wait.

In all honesty, this age of inter-connectivity surely could bring a study of the continents together! What a golden opportunity to build a real FE model than today?

Samuel Birley Rowbotham was a rich medical doctor and proprietor of pharmaceutical company. We have nowhere close to the resources the original society had.

Members of the original Flat Earth Society (then called the Universal Zetetic Society) had enough resources to publish monthly 300+ page journals of their studies, write numerous books, and engage in debates at universities all over Britain on the subject. At one point there was even an entire city in Illinois where Flat Earth Theory was taught in the schools.

They had a bigger budget and better funding, which trumps any "modern" conveniences.

Modern conveniences like web cams on every continent, weather balloons that can carry digital cameras, world-wide communication, CAD programs where you can draw 1:1 real-world scenarios, free ways of publishing online journals, images of every coast known to man... Yeah, we're really lacking compared to the golden age of the 19th century.

The 19th century had all of that. It just cost more.

Webcams on every continent = People on every continent
Weather balloons with digital cameras = Hot air baloons with people on them
World wide communication = Hand written letters
CAD programs where you can draw 1:1 real-world scenarios = Trial and error with building physical materials
Free way of publishing online journals = Traditional academic journals
Images of every coast known to man = Worldwide exploratory and surveying ships

Modern conveniences are just that - conveniences - nothing more.

Webcams on every continent = People on every continent (But with webcams you can personally view multiple parts of the world simultaneously and not have to use unreliable eye-witness testimony)
Weather balloons with digital cameras = Hot air baloons with people on them (It is much much easier, safer and cheaper to send a weather balloon up to 100,000 feet that a human)
World wide communication = Hand written letters (Again, instantaneous communications rather than the months it would take to get a letter from say North America to Australia)
CAD programs where you can draw 1:1 real-world scenarios = Trial and error with building physical materials (CAD sounds orders of magnitude cheaper to use)
Free way of publishing online journals = Traditional academic journals(Instant access to larger amounts of content since we are less reliant on mainstream or othodox publishers, a double edged sword)
Images of every coast known to man = Worldwide exploratory and surveying ships(Again, the savings in time, money and safety is incalculable)

It does not seem like the modern tools available are just conveniences.  I think if you create a systematic way of using them, that you can do more work for less money and time than you could in the 19th century.

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 16, 2013, 03:26:46 PM

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

What makes you think that South America and Australia were on exactly opposite sides of the map?

Well for starters they are 12 hours apart and since there are 24 hours in a day I'd say they aren't exactly neighbors!

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 21, 2013, 04:42:40 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2013, 11:01:16 PM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 16, 2013, 03:26:46 PM

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

What makes you think that South America and Australia were on exactly opposite sides of the map?

Well for starters they are 12 hours apart and since there are 24 hours in a day I'd say they aren't exactly neighbors!

12 hours apart means nothing. They can be 12 hours apart of a circle.

You're comprehension skills are lacking. He was referring to them being on opposite sides of the earth.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2013, 11:01:16 PM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 16, 2013, 03:26:46 PM

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

What makes you think that South America and Australia were on exactly opposite sides of the map?

Well for starters they are 12 hours apart and since there are 24 hours in a day I'd say they aren't exactly neighbors!

The problem with using time zones as evidence is that not every country follows UTC, often making up their own time zones. For example, China and India use a single time zone, even though the extent of their territory far exceeds 15° of longitude.

Also, the sun isn't necessarily directly overhead at 12pm. Time zones are just an approximation.

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 21, 2013, 04:42:40 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2013, 11:01:16 PM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 16, 2013, 03:26:46 PM

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

What makes you think that South America and Australia were on exactly opposite sides of the map?

Well for starters they are 12 hours apart and since there are 24 hours in a day I'd say they aren't exactly neighbors!

The problem with using time zones as evidence is that not every country follows UTC, often making up their own time zones. For example, China and India use a single time zone, even though the extent of their territory far exceeds 15° of longitude.

How is that relevant to Australia and South America?

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 22, 2013, 11:23:18 AM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 21, 2013, 04:42:40 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2013, 11:01:16 PM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 16, 2013, 03:26:46 PM

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

What makes you think that South America and Australia were on exactly opposite sides of the map?

Well for starters they are 12 hours apart and since there are 24 hours in a day I'd say they aren't exactly neighbors!

The problem with using time zones as evidence is that not every country follows UTC, often making up their own time zones. For example, China and India use a single time zone, even though the extent of their territory far exceeds 15° of longitude.

How is that relevant to Australia and South America?

There are South American and African countries which share a time zone which stretches across 3 UTC time zones, for one.

http://www.travel.com.hk/region/timezone.htm

Quote from: markjo on July 22, 2013, 11:44:37 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 22, 2013, 11:23:18 AM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 21, 2013, 04:42:40 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2013, 11:01:16 PM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 16, 2013, 03:26:46 PM

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

What makes you think that South America and Australia were on exactly opposite sides of the map?

Well for starters they are 12 hours apart and since there are 24 hours in a day I'd say they aren't exactly neighbors!

The problem with using time zones as evidence is that not every country follows UTC, often making up their own time zones. For example, China and India use a single time zone, even though the extent of their territory far exceeds 15° of longitude.

How is that relevant to Australia and South America?

There are South American and African countries which share a time zone which stretches across 3 UTC time zones, for one.

http://www.travel.com.hk/region/timezone.htm

Let's see if we can find resources to tell us when the sun is directly overhead of a certain part of south america and compare that to directly over head of australia 12 hours later.

Quote from: markjo on July 22, 2013, 11:44:37 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 22, 2013, 11:23:18 AM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 21, 2013, 04:42:40 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2013, 11:01:16 PM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 16, 2013, 03:26:46 PM

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

What makes you think that South America and Australia were on exactly opposite sides of the map?

Well for starters they are 12 hours apart and since there are 24 hours in a day I'd say they aren't exactly neighbors!

The problem with using time zones as evidence is that not every country follows UTC, often making up their own time zones. For example, China and India use a single time zone, even though the extent of their territory far exceeds 15° of longitude.

How is that relevant to Australia and South America?

There are South American and African countries which share a time zone which stretches across 3 UTC time zones, for one.

http://www.travel.com.hk/region/timezone.htm

First of all; what does Africa have to do with Australia.

Secondly; again, how is this relevant?

Forget about time zones, lets go with longitude. It's not hard to work out your longitude, the Flat Earth Wiki even has a page about it, although it's rather unhelpful. Find a better explanation elsewhere.

Anyway, Perth, Australia, is at 32°S and 116°E, while Rio Gallegos, Argentina, is at 52°S and 69°W, 175° around from Perth, only 5° away from exactly opposite! How can these two locations possibly get sunlight at the same time (during the Southern summer) on the North pole centred flat earth? (Don't even start me on the bi-polar model, that just raises more questions, like how can Los Angeles and Sydney have sunlight at the same time?)

Any answer to that Tom? Or are you going to pretend you didn't see this post?

The earth is actually a giant sphere.

Please refrain from low-content posts in the upper fora.  Consider this a warning.

Quote from: markjo on July 22, 2013, 11:44:37 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 22, 2013, 11:23:18 AM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 21, 2013, 04:42:40 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2013, 11:01:16 PM

Quote from: FlatOrange on July 16, 2013, 03:26:46 PM

Edit: Tom never addressed the FACT that cities in Australia and South America - as far away as possible on the most accepted of the FE maps - have daylight at the same time.  He left that thread never to speak again in it.

What makes you think that South America and Australia were on exactly opposite sides of the map?

Well for starters they are 12 hours apart and since there are 24 hours in a day I'd say they aren't exactly neighbors!

The problem with using time zones as evidence is that not every country follows UTC, often making up their own time zones. For example, China and India use a single time zone, even though the extent of their territory far exceeds 15° of longitude.

How is that relevant to Australia and South America?

There are South American and African countries which share a time zone which stretches across 3 UTC time zones, for one.

http://www.travel.com.hk/region/timezone.htm

Do you know what UTC is? When we talk about UTC you can throw whatever you know about Time Zones out the window. It is always the same time in UTC everywhere in the world. UTC time is the local time (without daylight savings) in Greenwich, England.

Hey again guys.  I checked out the MIT challenge that Tom Bishop introduced.  Take a ruler to the very outside edge of earth in the picture.  Notice how perfectly straight and miraculous the outside edge actually is... From this information, everyone automatically can conclude that the earth is flat.  That particular view provides thousands of miles of experimental "ahhhh" room...

The only problem with the photo stands in how it is tilted.  In the real world, gravity pulls all objects directly downward.  This means the picture should be aligned with the gravitational pull in a perfectly horizontal line instead of a diagonal representation.  The camera should be aligned to gravity with the balloon being directly above the camera and the camera's lens aligned as well to the direction of pull.  But it still looks flat with a ruler, so no objections to that portion.  However, if I was doing the shot, the earth would always be on the bottom of the picture.  All of the originals appear this way, before they are cropped, digitized, and falsified...

Hey again guys.  I checked out the MIT challenge that Tom Bishop introduced.  Take a ruler to the very outside edge of earth in the picture.  Notice how perfectly straight and miraculous the outside edge actually is... From this information, everyone automatically can conclude that the earth is flat.  That particular view provides thousands of miles of experimental "ahhhh" room...

See this thread http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,59252.0.html#.UfAmTmS9Kc0

Tom Bishop. I have seen the diagram of the flat earth theory.

In no possible way it can light up the southern hemisphere the way we observe.

Asking for a diagram to show it to be true on a spherical earth is a very simple question to be answered. I was hoping though that you could share your criticism on these diagrams. In my opinion these diagrams show at least a way in which the observable matches with that of the model.

Summer in southern hemisphere, winter in northern hemishpere


Vice versa


Again, I will be very much looking forward to your criticism and your explanation as what is wrong with these models and I will be looking forward to a diagram from the flat earth society in which the observable can be explained.

Please note that in RET the primary reason why there are seasons lies in the tilt of the earth. Notice however the 800,000 mile diameter of the sun.  RET fails completely because the sun being so large, it is impossible given the constrains of logic to imagine that a slight tilt would make such a big difference on weather patterns in different portions of the globe.  Please consider the spotlight of the sun being 3000 miles a way.  Now the heat source possesses more of a realistic effect...  It has to do with ratios and etc.