Tides due to vibrating Earth

  • 30 Replies
  • 5744 Views
?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« on: October 20, 2006, 10:52:26 AM »
It occurs to me that if the surface of the Earth is a slowly vibrating membrane with its boundary at the ice wall fixed, this could explain tides.  The function describing the vibration would a superposition of waves dominated by something like A/2 sin(θ + π t/(12 hrs))× J_α(r), where A is the height of the highest tide and J_α is a Bessel function of the first kind with α>0.

Basically, this would look like a saddle-shaped surface that rotates throughout the day and possibly (due to smaller-scale fluctuations) vibrates up and down as well.  Mind you it's not the surface itself that's rotating; just the crests and troughs of the "wave".  The two crests would always be on opposite sides of the Earth and would have low tides; the two troughs would be 90° out of phase with the crests and would have high tides (since the water would naturally flow downhill away from the crests.)

The wave itself would of course lose energy over time, but it is possible that tidal gravitational forces from the moon, or some other attractive force between the Earth and Moon, might drive the oscillation, keeping the tides going.  This would of course explain the observed synchrony between the tides and the position of the Moon.

If I can find or produce a video or diagram, I will be sure to post it.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

*

Dioptimus Drime

  • 4531
  • Meep.
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2006, 11:07:15 AM »
Firstly, I'll assume that mathematical equation was much more meaningful than I understood of it...
One issue that I noticed, though. I thought that on the Flat Earth model, "gravity" didn't exist, so I'm hesitant to accept the supposed gravitational force between the moon and the Earth. I don't see how that would work.

~D-Draw

Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2006, 11:26:23 AM »
In these conditions, how would the ice wall ever have formed? ( I mean, it couldn't have formed either way, but this makes it even less possible.)
atttttttup was right when he said joseph bloom is right, The Engineer is a douchebag.

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2006, 11:40:16 AM »
Quote from: "DiegoDraw"
I thought that on the Flat Earth model, "gravity" didn't exist, so I'm hesitant to accept the supposed gravitational force between the moon and the Earth.


As I have stated on many occassions, FEism asserts that the Earth does not generate a gravitational field, but makes no assertions about the heavenly bodies.  If you're not happy saying that the moon has a gravitational field, just call it "terrestrial affinity" or something until the exact mechanism is worked out.

Quote from: "phaseshifter"
In these conditions, how would the ice wall ever have formed?


Note:

Quote from: "I"
the surface of the Earth is a slowly vibrating membrane with its boundary at the ice wall fixed,
(emphasis added)

In other words the Earth is sort of like a drum skin.  The rim of the drum is held in place but the rest is allowed to vibrate.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

*

Dioptimus Drime

  • 4531
  • Meep.
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2006, 11:44:47 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
As I have stated on many occassions, FEism asserts that the Earth does not generate a gravitational field, but makes no assertions about the heavenly bodies.  If you're not happy saying that the moon has a gravitational field, just call it "terrestrial affinity" or something until the exact mechanism is worked out.


The only problem that I have with it is the fact that in either model, the idea of "gravity" is just a guess and a slapped-on name for something that is relatively unexplainable. The flat Earth model, at the moment, has a reason why this so-called "gravity" pushes us towards the ground; is it really necessary to go back to the poorly backed idea of "gravity?"

~D-Draw

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2006, 01:32:26 PM »
Quote from: "DiegoDraw"
The flat Earth model, at the moment, has a reason why this so-called "gravity" pushes us towards the ground; is it really necessary to go back to the poorly backed idea of "gravity?"


This particular aspect (my tide mechanism proposal) isn't meant to focus on the nature of gravity, but rather to adopt whatever mechanism we eventually conclude to be keeping the moon bound to the Earth.  Obviously some effect, process, or force is keeping it there; I am merely supposing that since there is an obvious correlation between the moon and the tides, it is likely that this effect, process or force is the vector by which that correlation arises.

In other words, if we end up admitting that there's gravity between the Earth and the moon, then that force drives the vibration.  If on the other hand it turns out that elves who live in caves in the Ice Wall use skyhooks to keep the moon from flying away, then I'll just say that the vibration is driven by the moon pulling centrifugally on the elves.

The focus here is on the tides, not on the attractive force.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2006, 01:45:07 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"


The focus here is on the tides, not on the attractive force.


Yes, please ignore the man behind the curtain.

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2006, 02:13:37 PM »
Quote from: "Curious"
Yes, please ignore the man behind the curtain.


I will, until he says something other than, "I am a man behind a curtain."  If you think you can take any FE topic and just say, "Yeah, well, what about gravity?" -- a demand that is fairly empty when you look at it -- you're wrong.  We are interested in other issues as well.

Back on topic then!
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2006, 02:29:41 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"

In other words, if we end up admitting that there's gravity between the Earth and the moon

I was thinking about this the other day and was going to propose a model for the sun and moon's orbit above the earth.  As we seem to conclude, the earth may not have a gravitational field, itself, but that doesn't mean that other objects don't.  
So, I propose a model by which the sun and moon orbit eachother, around a common barycenter.  This would explain their movement above the earth, as well as the trigger for the tides (or the cause of the oscillation).

Now, concidering the sun/moon mass as a single system about the barycenter, I would also propose that our immediate celestial neighborhood acts as a giant damped, spring-mass system of the form of a 2nd order ODE.  The damping arises from the S/M's gravitaitonal attraction with the earth (or portions thereof), the spring force from the 'Dark Energy' (shmavity, UA, whatever) and the mass obviously from the system.
This set up could explain why the barycenter is at a constant altitude as the harmonics of the system would have died out long ago, but the actual orbits of the S/M are still sinusoidal about the center of mass.

The details have yet to be worked out, at present, this is just a thought experiment.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2006, 02:47:51 PM »
Quote
In other words the Earth is sort of like a drum skin. The rim of the drum is held in place but the rest is allowed to vibrate.


No, I meant how did it ORIGINALY form. With these constant vibrations, how could water at the edge not only stop spilling, but form a huge body of ice despite the constant movment?

I'm asking how it formed, not how it works within that description now. But in any case, the edges would vibrate as well.
atttttttup was right when he said joseph bloom is right, The Engineer is a douchebag.

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2006, 01:45:53 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
I propose a model by which the sun and moon orbit eachother, around a common barycenter.


Appealing, but unfortunately, very often, in fact more often than not, they don't (basically whenever they're not at opposition).
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2006, 10:10:10 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
I propose a model by which the sun and moon orbit eachother, around a common barycenter.


Appealing, but unfortunately, very often, in fact more often than not, they don't (basically whenever they're not at opposition).

Oops, yea, I kind of forgot about that.  It would be hard to orbit each other when they are both on the same half of the orbit.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2006, 11:16:53 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
It occurs to me that if the surface of the Earth is a slowly vibrating membrane with its boundary at the ice wall fixed, this could explain tides.  The function describing the vibration would a superposition of waves dominated by something like A/2 sin(θ + π t/(12 hrs))× J_α(r), where A is the height of the highest tide and J_α is a Bessel function of the first kind with α>0.

Basically, this would look like a saddle-shaped surface that rotates throughout the day and possibly (due to smaller-scale fluctuations) vibrates up and down as well.  Mind you it's not the surface itself that's rotating; just the crests and troughs of the "wave".  The two crests would always be on opposite sides of the Earth and would have low tides; the two troughs would be 90° out of phase with the crests and would have high tides (since the water would naturally flow downhill away from the crests.)

The wave itself would of course lose energy over time, but it is possible that tidal gravitational forces from the moon, or some other attractive force between the Earth and Moon, might drive the oscillation, keeping the tides going.  This would of course explain the observed synchrony between the tides and the position of the Moon.

If I can find or produce a video or diagram, I will be sure to post it.


Tides are caused by the moons gravitational pull.

Next.
quote="Dogplatter"]
Penguins were actually created in the 1960's by Russian scientists who combined the DNA of otters and birds.  [/quote]


LOL

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Re: Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2006, 11:25:22 AM »
Quote from: "Yardstick2006"
Tides are caused by the moons gravitational pull.


Thanks for your opinion but that just backs up my theory so YOU LOSE hahah kkthxbi.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Re: Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2006, 01:10:10 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Yardstick2006"
Tides are caused by the moons gravitational pull.


Thanks for your opinion but that just backs up my theory so YOU LOSE hahah kkthxbi.


What have they done to Erasmus?!
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Re: Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2006, 07:22:46 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
It occurs to me that if the surface of the Earth is a slowly vibrating membrane with its boundary at the ice wall fixed, this could explain tides.  The function describing the vibration would a superposition of waves dominated by something like A/2 sin(θ + π t/(12 hrs))× J_α(r), where A is the height of the highest tide and J_α is a Bessel function of the first kind with α>0.

Basically, this would look like a saddle-shaped surface that rotates throughout the day and possibly (due to smaller-scale fluctuations) vibrates up and down as well.  Mind you it's not the surface itself that's rotating; just the crests and troughs of the "wave".  The two crests would always be on opposite sides of the Earth and would have low tides; the two troughs would be 90° out of phase with the crests and would have high tides (since the water would naturally flow downhill away from the crests.)

The wave itself would of course lose energy over time, but it is possible that tidal gravitational forces from the moon, or some other attractive force between the Earth and Moon, might drive the oscillation, keeping the tides going.  This would of course explain the observed synchrony between the tides and the position of the Moon.

If I can find or produce a video or diagram, I will be sure to post it.
For that phenomenon to be effective enough to displace the amount of water that is, this would have to be a visible phenomenon.  And what happens when the vibrations reach land?  The disturbance to the surface, no matter how slight the movement, could easily destroy the foundations of buildings, cause avalanches, etc.

Even if it only occured underwater, it would prevent coral reefs from forming due to the constant shifting of the earth.  Do coral reefs exist?  Yes.

This wouldn't work.

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Re: Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2006, 07:29:41 PM »
Quote from: "Hugh"
For that phenomenon to be effective enough to displace the amount of water that is, this would have to be a visible phenomenon.


Not really.  It could be (as I hypothesize it to be) a low-amplitude, low-frequency disturbance.

Quote
The disturbance to the surface, no matter how slight the movement, could easily destroy the foundations of buildings, cause avalanches, etc.


Um, I believe that earthquakes and avalanches are known to occur, quite frequently in fact.  That is not disputed, is it?

Quote
Even if it only occured underwater, it would prevent coral reefs from forming due to the constant shifting of the earth.  Do coral reefs exist?  Yes.


The vibrations however are so infrequent and smooth (we're talking a displacement of a few feet over twelve thousand miles) that they don't affect systems like coral.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2006, 07:31:07 PM »
If they were as infrequent and smooth as they would have to be then they wouldn't be able to displace enough water, as I said at the very beginning of my post.

Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2006, 07:32:23 PM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"

...I was thinking about this the other day and was going to propose a model for the sun and moon's orbit above the earth.  As we seem to conclude, the earth may not have a gravitational field, itself, but that doesn't mean that other objects don't.  ...


I like that, selective exclusion between similar types of objects.

*

Lord Wilmore

  • Vice President
  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 12107
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2006, 07:37:24 PM »
Quote from: "msu320"
Quote from: "TheEngineer"

...I was thinking about this the other day and was going to propose a model for the sun and moon's orbit above the earth.  As we seem to conclude, the earth may not have a gravitational field, itself, but that doesn't mean that other objects don't.  ...


I like that, selective exclusion between similar types of objects.


Well, in FE theory, they're not similar at all. In fact, they're not similar in RE theory either, unless you consider 'being round' enough to warrant comparison. Hell, the earth is about as similar to the sun as a football is to the earth.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2006, 07:38:42 PM »
Quote from: "Hugh"
If they were as infrequent and smooth as they would have to be then they wouldn't be able to displace enough water, as I said at the very beginning of my post.


I know you said it, I just don't remember hearing you justify it.

The displacement would be equal to the depth of the deepest "regular" tides, and would vary trigonometrically around the circumference of the Earth.  Obviously that displacement is (by construction) enough to move the amount of water we see; the maximum curvature of the surface is 1/R², where R is the radius of the Earth.  The Earth being on the largish side, this means the curvature -- and thus the stress on things like coral -- is freakishly small (something like 5×10^(-14)/m, assuming the deepest tide is 20 meters (generous)).
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2006, 07:57:15 PM »
All right, maybe.  New question: how do you explain the variations in the magnitudes of the tides?  How does your apparently consistent model allow for the spring tides and their opposites (can't remember their name)?

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2006, 08:03:29 PM »
Quote from: "Hugh"
New question: how do you explain the variations in the magnitudes of the tides?


Well, spatial variations are due primarily to local differences in elevation (same as on the RE).  Temporal variations are more interesting and are probably due to smaller-scale noisy fluctuations in the vibration, variations in the strength of the lunar driving force, and chaotic hydrodynamics (displacement is not just due to the vibration of the crust but also due to water's own momentum and pressure fields).

Quote
How does your apparently consistent model allow for the spring tides and their opposites (can't remember their name)?


Well, I expect that whatever effect the moon has on the Earth that permits it to drive tides could also be enjoyed by the sun, though to a much weaker extent for currently undiscovered reasons (perhaps related to the fact that solar energy is primarily devoted to heat and light, whereas lunar energy is primarly devoted to deformation).  Thus, we again get the same
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2006, 02:16:06 AM »
Tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the moon.

Dumbass. :roll:
quote="Dogplatter"]
Penguins were actually created in the 1960's by Russian scientists who combined the DNA of otters and birds.  [/quote]


LOL

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2006, 11:41:29 AM »
Quote from: "Yardstick2006"
Tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the moon.

Dumbass. :roll:


I'm pretty sure that I said that, and then one of the REers objected.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2006, 11:43:38 AM »
Quote from: "Yardstick2006"
Tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the moon.

Dumbass. :roll:

The cause of Tides changes depending on which FEer you talk to. Which doesn't make for a very cohesive theory.
atttttttup was right when he said joseph bloom is right, The Engineer is a douchebag.

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2006, 11:57:41 AM »
Quote from: "phaseshifter"
The cause of Tides changes depending on which FEer you talk to. Which doesn't make for a very cohesive theory.


No, but it does make for a theory-under-construction.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2006, 03:42:28 PM »
This is exactly like Gravity in the RE model, noone really knows what causes it, some believe in the graviton, others believe other things, it is a theory-under-construction
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2006, 09:56:32 PM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
This is exactly like Gravity in the RE model, noone really knows what causes it, some believe in the graviton, others believe other things, it is a theory-under-construction


No, it's not the same, tides are not a fundamental force. Gravity however, is.
atttttttup was right when he said joseph bloom is right, The Engineer is a douchebag.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Tides due to vibrating Earth
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2006, 09:58:51 PM »
Tides are caused by this magical force.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson