What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?

• 138 Replies
• 19392 Views
?

Earthisround99

• 44
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2006, 01:13:52 PM »
biblica they are goin to keep throwing feces at you. Better just give up.
he earth is a cube!

?

Curious

• 413
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2006, 03:28:13 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Some points:

1.  TheEngineer is correct.  You can keep accelerating and never go faster than the speed of light.  Hell, you can keep accelerating and never go faster than you were going when you started.

2.  It does not take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate the Earth for a finite period of time, just like it doesn't take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a rocket ship for a finite period of time.

3.  http://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3152.

My question is:  Where is the energy coming from?

If the energy source is part of the universal movement the the FEarth and "stars" and everything that is supposed to be moving along, then what is being converted into this large amount of energy to provide the "Thrust"?  Since E= MC^2, you are accelerating all of the future needed energy along with you, and you have a limit on how long the acceleration can take place before all of you mass must be converted to energy.

I think I can see how in this model the speed of light is not a factor.  Since time is a factor of acceleration and the rate of time is decreasing (relative to a non accelerating frame) than the "internal acceleration" is different than the external.  Exteranlly the energy "output" in increasing over time, but "internally" to the accelerating frame it is constant.   The duration of the non accelerating "Universe" that you are accelerating through could be a problem, as if it was the RE universe, the billions of years that are left to this cycle would pass quickly.

If the energy is external then your statements above are misleading.  First, since your energy source is not accelerating then the energy needs to increase not just for the simple acceleration, but to keep up with the relativistic differences.  Now thermal dynamics would become a major issue, as the difference in speed between the accelerating earth and the energy decreases the amount needed to gain acceleration increases, with this much energy, the "lost energy" that entropy insists on becomes an issue.  Even ignoring the relativistic problems, the effect of applying that much energy to the earth would eventually burn it up.

?

Curious

• 413
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2006, 03:28:54 PM »
Quote from: "Earthisround99"
biblica they are goin to keep throwing feces at you. Better just give up.

Never Give Up! Never Surrender!

?

bibicul

• 259
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2006, 04:08:17 AM »
Of course they’re going to keep on throwing feces at me and a lot of other people who believe that the earth is round. In no way does that mean that I will give up. Furthermore, I am sure that everyone (except the FE’ers) who read this thread understood my point, which is that TheEngineer and Erasmus were talking out of context, referring to circular motion when there was no mention of circular motion whatsoever, but rather of the earth moving “upwards”. It’s a very simple argument, really.

?

GeoGuy

What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2006, 05:27:39 AM »
Quote from: "bibicul"
Of course they’re going to keep on throwing feces at me and a lot of other people who believe that the earth is round. In no way does that mean that I will give up. Furthermore, I am sure that everyone (except the FE’ers) who read this thread understood my point, which is that TheEngineer and Erasmus were talking out of context, referring to circular motion when there was no mention of circular motion whatsoever, but rather of the earth moving “upwards”. It’s a very simple argument, really.

The point of bringing up circular motion was to show that it is possible to "keep accelerating and never go faster than you were going when you started", as you said.
It is obvious that the FE is accelerating with no gain in speed by the fact that, when you drop something, Earth obviously accelerates to it, with no gain in speed whatsoever.

?

bibicul

• 259
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2006, 05:37:36 AM »
Are you saying that the FE is following circular motion - that's the only case in which acceleration is possible without a change in speed. I've been under the impression that the earth is moving upwards - based on your "theory" - not going in circles.

?

GeoGuy

What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2006, 05:43:38 AM »
No, but it's obvious that we are accelerating without any change in speed.

?

bibicul

• 259
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2006, 05:56:50 AM »
That's only possible in circular motion.

Otherwise, we cannot be accelerating without a change in speed, as speed is simply the magnitude component of velocity (measured in the same physical units of measurement as velocity).

If "it's obvious that we are accelerating without any change in speed" then you are implying that the earth follows a circular motion, which is in contradiction with the FE idea that the earth is moving "upwards".

?

GeoGuy

What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2006, 06:00:33 AM »
Ok, you can measure Earth's acceleration by dropping something, then wait a few minutes, and measure its speed- 0m/s. Wait a few minutes, measure it again, 0m/s.
No change in velocity (relative to us.)

?

bibicul

• 259
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2006, 06:06:08 AM »
Also, no chage in acceleration (relative to us) - 0 m/s^2.

?

GeoGuy

What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2006, 06:08:20 AM »
Of course. Earth isn't accelerating relative to us though, it's accelerating relative only to inertial reference frames, like that object we just dropped.

?

bibicul

• 259
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2006, 06:12:11 AM »
Indeed, and thus it is changing its velocity and speed, since it is not following circular motion, but rather going upwards (based on "FE theory").

Therefore, "it's obvious that we are accelerating without any change in speed" is false.

?

GeoGuy

What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2006, 06:14:33 AM »
Not relative to us.

?

bibicul

• 259
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2006, 06:23:30 AM »
Exactly. Relative to us, acceleration is 0 m/s^2.

Therefore, "it's obvious that we are accelerating without any change in speed" is false.

?

Curious

• 413
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2006, 08:30:27 AM »
Quote from: "GeoGuy"
Quote from: "bibicul"
Of course they’re going to keep on throwing feces at me and a lot of other people who believe that the earth is round. In no way does that mean that I will give up. Furthermore, I am sure that everyone (except the FE’ers) who read this thread understood my point, which is that TheEngineer and Erasmus were talking out of context, referring to circular motion when there was no mention of circular motion whatsoever, but rather of the earth moving “upwards”. It’s a very simple argument, really.

The point of bringing up circular motion was to show that it is possible to "keep accelerating and never go faster than you were going when you started", as you said.
It is obvious that the FE is accelerating with no gain in speed by the fact that, when you drop something, Earth obviously accelerates to it, with no gain in speed whatsoever.

What?  If the earth is accelerating towards an oject than there is obviously a change in speed between the object and the earth.

Since speed involves motion, and motion is relative than any discussion of speed needs to describe the framework that you are using to describe the speed.

But for circular motion you need a complicated set of vectors, and there are few other forms of motion that would give you a steady "gravity affect".

?

Erasmus

• The Elder Ones
• 4242
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2006, 11:02:20 AM »
If there is some object floating out in space unassociated with the accelerating FE system, then our speed with respect to that object is changing.  It's meaningless to say, "Our speed is changing," and anybody who responds, "I measured the floor of my apartment a few minutes ago -- not moving.  I measured it again just now -- still not moving.  Thus, no change in speed."

However we know that we're accelerating because we know F = ma, and we can feel a force on our feet that isn't balanced out by any other force.  Alternatively we can hang a mass on a spring and see how much the spring is stretched; this only happens in an accelerating system.

There is no controversy that we are accelerating; however it is subjective whether or not we are moving.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

?

Curious

• 413
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2006, 02:00:54 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
If there is some object floating out in space unassociated with the accelerating FE system, then our speed with respect to that object is changing.  It's meaningless to say, "Our speed is changing," and anybody who responds, "I measured the floor of my apartment a few minutes ago -- not moving.  I measured it again just now -- still not moving.  Thus, no change in speed."

However we know that we're accelerating because we know F = ma, and we can feel a force on our feet that isn't balanced out by any other force.  Alternatively we can hang a mass on a spring and see how much the spring is stretched; this only happens in an accelerating system.

There is no controversy that we are accelerating; however it is subjective whether or not we are moving.

What does that have anything to do with the previous statements:
For example:
Quote
It is obvious that the FE is accelerating with no gain in speed by the fact that, when you drop something, Earth obviously accelerates to it, with no gain in speed whatsoever.

Quote
What? If the earth is accelerating towards an oject than there is obviously a change in speed between the object and the earth

We are not talking about objects "unassociated" the the FE, the statement "Earth obviously accelerates to it, with no gain in speed whatsoever" is self contradictory.  Since motion is relative, it is equally valid to say that the earth "sped up" towards the object, or the object "sped up" towards the earth.

I do disagree with some of your statements:

Quote
However we know that we're accelerating because we know F = ma, and we can feel a force on our feet that isn't balanced out by any other force.  Alternatively we can hang a mass on a spring and see how much the spring is stretched; this only happens in an accelerating system

First, while a minor point, there is a balancing force.  The molecular cohesion of whatever we are standing on balances the force of acceleration, or we would fall.

Second and more significant, all your spring scale proves is that a force is acting on the scale.  In an non-accelrated system I can attach a string onto the mass and pull it.  I can pull the mass with a magnet (or is magnetism considered a specalized form of acceleration?).  I can act on the mass in many ways with force to stretch the spring.  So, your spring proves that a force is in action, but does not identify the force as a form of acceleration.

?

Erasmus

• The Elder Ones
• 4242
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2006, 02:27:14 PM »
Quote from: "Curious"
What does that have anything to do with the previous statements:

Well,

Quote from: "I"
If there is some object floating out in space unassociated with the accelerating FE system, then our speed with respect to that object is changing.

has to do with

Quote from: "Curious"
Quote
What? If the earth is accelerating towards an oject than there is obviously a change in speed between the object and the earth

Isn't that obvious?

Quote from: "Curious"
First, while a minor point, there is a balancing force.  The molecular cohesion of whatever we are standing on balances the force of acceleration, or we would fall.

That's the force I was talking about.  It's the one that you feel pushing up on your feet; it's the one that pulls a spring upwards when it's attached to a mass.

There's nothing balancing that force.  Hence, we are accelerating upwards.

Quote
In an non-accelrated system I can attach a string onto the mass and pull it.

Once you pull it (with a magnet or with your hand), you've made it go from not moving to moving.  That sounds like acceleration to me.

Quote
So, your spring proves that a force is in action, but does not identify the force as a form of acceleration.

You forget F = ma.  Any time there is a net force on a body, there is a proportional acceleration of that body.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

?

Curious

• 413
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2006, 02:47:16 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Curious"
What does that have anything to do with the previous statements:

Well,

Quote from: "I"
If there is some object floating out in space unassociated with the accelerating FE system, then our speed with respect to that object is changing.

has to do with

Quote from: "Curious"
Quote
What? If the earth is accelerating towards an oject than there is obviously a change in speed between the object and the earth

Isn't that obvious?

But how is it relevant in the context of the posts?

You followed by saying that the speed change was meaningless, and in you context I agree, but that isn't what we were talking about, since we were describing an object being dropped and the change in speed due to acceleration.

?

Curious

• 413
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2006, 02:59:59 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"

That's the force I was talking about.  It's the one that you feel pushing up on your feet; it's the one that pulls a spring upwards when it's attached to a mass.

There's nothing balancing that force.  Hence, we are accelerating upwards.

In that case the balancing force is intertia.  Our resistance to the acceleration, that causes us to be held down to the ground

Quote
Once you pull it (with a magnet or with your hand), you've made it go from not moving to moving.  That sounds like acceleration to me.

But when I stop moving it, I still apply force and streach the string.

Quote
So, your spring proves that a force is in action, but does not identify the force as a form of acceleration.

You forget F = ma.  Any time there is a net force on a body, there is a proportional acceleration of that body.[/quote]

But acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or direction.

Quote
In physics or physical science, acceleration (symbol: a) is defined as the rate of change (or derivative with respect to time) of velocity. It is thus a vector quantity with dimension length/time². In SI units, acceleration is measured in meters/second² using an accelerometer.

There is no change, therefore there is no acceleration.

?

fathomak

• 198
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2006, 03:12:12 PM »
Quote
That's the force I was talking about. It's the one that you feel pushing up on your feet; it's the one that pulls a spring upwards when it's attached to a mass.

There's nothing balancing that force. Hence, we are accelerating upwards.

Yes there is.  Just as the earth exerts a force of, say, 700N on me, I am exerting a force of 700N on the earth.  Going back to F = ma, this means that the mass of the earth times the acceleration of the earth is equal to my mass times my acceleration.  So, MA = ma, where the capitals denote the earth.

Which also means:
M/m = a/A
Thus if the earth has a mass 10^23 times greater than me, my acceleration would be 10^23 times greater than the earth's, making only my acceleration noticable.

Quote
Quote
In physics or physical science, acceleration (symbol: a) is defined as the rate of change (or derivative with respect to time) of velocity. It is thus a vector quantity with dimension length/time². In SI units, acceleration is measured in meters/second² using an accelerometer.

There is no change, therefore there is no acceleration.

Lot of detail here.  General Relativity states that in a small region it is impossible to distinguish between acceleration and a graviational force.  I'll try to explain a little bit about Gallilean relativity and reference frames as they tie in with this discussion if anyone would care to hear.
captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

?

Curious

• 413
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2006, 03:22:27 PM »
Quote from: "fathomak"

Lot of detail here.  General Relativity states that in a small region it is impossible to distinguish between acceleration and a gravitational force.  I'll try to explain a little bit about Galilean relativity and reference frames as they tie in with this discussion if anyone would care to hear.

We have been all over the equivalence theory, the problem with it is the definition of "small region"

As our equipment becomes more accurate, small gets smaller.

For example, with an exceedingly precise weight measurement, the gravitational pull of the earth decreases with altitude, but acceleration does not.  Therefore within Einstein's "elevator" things are lighter on the ceiling than floor if under gravity, but the same if accelerating.

?

fathomak

• 198
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2006, 03:28:25 PM »
Quote
We have been all over the equivalence theory, the problem with it is the definition of "small region"

Understandable.

Quote
As our equipment becomes more accurate, small gets smaller.

Well put.

Quote
For example, with an exceedingly precise weight measurement, the gravitational pull of the earth decreases with altitude, but acceleration does not. Therefore within Einstein's "elevator" things are lighter on the ceiling than floor if under gravity, but the same if accelerating.

That's pretty much it.  It's just that a lot of supporters for the FE theory argue that experiments are fake or unreliable, and they don't believe anything has been high enough off of the surface to show that there is any change in force.
captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

?

SSFIL

• 15
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2006, 04:42:38 PM »
OK, Try this one if you can afford the equipment. Detonate a one hundred megaton nuclear device on the opposite side of the Earth after advising the Flat Heads of the time of detonation. They should be able to see the flash and nuclear column from any place on their flat earth. If they said they didn't see this device detonate then take them to the 100 mile diameter crater and leave them there to ponder why. They'll soon after expire from radiation sickness and that's that.
till Searching For Intelligent Life

?

EnragedPenguin

• The Elder Ones
• 1004
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2006, 04:59:53 PM »
Quote from: "fathomak"
Yes there is.  Just as the earth exerts a force of, say, 700N on me, I am exerting a force of 700N on the earth.  Going back to F = ma, this means that the mass of the earth times the acceleration of the earth is equal to my mass times my acceleration.  So, MA = ma, where the capitals denote the earth.

The force of you pushing on Earth does not balance the force of Earth pushing on you. Only an equal force pushing down on your head would do that.
Since we feel a force pushing on our feet and feel no equal, balancing force, pushing on our heads, we know we are accelerating. Whether we are accelerating towards Earth, or Earth is accelerating us upwards is irrelevant.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

?

fathomak

• 198
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2006, 05:16:42 PM »
Quote
The force of you pushing on Earth does not balance the force of Earth pushing on you. Only an equal force pushing down on your head would do that.
Since we feel a force pushing on our feet and feel no equal, balancing force, pushing on our heads, we know we are accelerating. Whether we are accelerating towards Earth, or Earth is accelerating us upwards is irrelevant.

.......

Let's pick some arbitrary particle anywhere on the earth.  Now as miniscule as it may be, that single particle creates an attractive force on some particle in my eyeball.  It also creates an attractive force with some particle on my knee.  In fact, that single particle creates and experiences a minute force of attraction with every single particle in my body.  Now consider every particle in the earth.  Every particle in my body creates and experiences an attractive force with every particle in the earth, and the net force is the vector sum of all of the individual forces.  It's ridiculous to say my head doesn't experience the force and only my feet do.  I don't have to be in contact with the earth to feel the gravitational force it creates.

Whether we are in a gravitational field or accelerating, our entire body would feel the force.  If we were accelerating and our head felt no force (key word is felt) it would simply mean our head is in freefall and our feet are quickly moving upward, which would mean I should expect to soon hear the sharp cracking of my head striking the ground, upon which point my head indeed would feel the force (and initially quite a large one at that).
captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

beast

• 2997
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2006, 05:20:09 PM »
proof of what you're saying is true and not just made up on the spot?

?

EnragedPenguin

• The Elder Ones
• 1004
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #87 on: October 27, 2006, 05:51:07 PM »
Quote from: "fathomak"
Whether we are in a gravitational field or accelerating, our entire body would feel the force.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. What I meant was that we feel a force pushing us "up" (pushing on our feet, which push on our legs and so on,) but no force pushing us "down" ( pushing on our head, which pushes on our shoulders and so on,) therefore we know we are accelerating.
The idea here is not which particular parts of the anatomy feel the force, but in what direction the force is pushing.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

?

fathomak

• 198
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #88 on: October 27, 2006, 06:24:30 PM »
Quote
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. What I meant was that we feel a force pushing us "up" (pushing on our feet, which push on our legs and so on,) but no force pushing us "down" ( pushing on our head, which pushes on our shoulders and so on,) therefore we know we are accelerating.
The idea here is not which particular parts of the anatomy feel the force, but in what direction the force is pushing.

Ok then, I agree with you, there is no force pushing the head down.  In fact, the force on the head is pulling it down (there is the force of the body pushing the head up, but that is the force that neutralizes the earth pulling it down, and hence is the reason my brain is not splattered on the pavement right now).  Pushing down (and of course down has to be defined relative to the earth) would imply that there is something above our head creating the force.  Regardless of whether we're in a gravitational field or accelerating, the force we "feel" would be exactly the same.  This is Einstein's theory of general relativity.
captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"

?

fathomak

• 198
What proof do you need to believe the earth is a sphere?
« Reply #89 on: October 27, 2006, 06:25:49 PM »
Quote
proof of what you're saying is true and not just made up on the spot?

Beast, you're asking me to write books that have already been written that you wouldn't read anyway if I even bothered to rewrite them.
captain is sailing through the arctic. The first mate runs up and says to him, "captain, there is an iceberg dead ahead. What should we do?" The captain looks at the iceberg, then glances at his map and says, "there's no iceberg here! Keep going!"