Space Flight

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nph

  • 17
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #540 on: June 28, 2013, 06:15:04 AM »

Quote from: nph
So there are things (i.e., invisible things) in the vacuum? I thought there was nothing, as in no-thing. Therefore, the Earth is not flat.
There are cells in the vacuum, namely earth and possibly many other like wise earths. We will never find this out because a vacuum does not enable "anything" to travel through it.

I thought we clarified what you meant by 'vacuum'. How do "cells," which are presumably things exist in what you call a "vacuum?"

The earth is a slightly concave solid and liquid ball that we live on, plus the atmosphere filled ice dome and to an outside observer (assuming it were magically possible) it would look like a glass ball.
Quote from: nph
Are you sure that you're a skeptic? You're pretty dogmatic for a skeptic.
I suppose it depends on how people look at it.
My forum name is sceptimatic, so people can make of that, what they will.

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nph

  • 17
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #541 on: June 28, 2013, 06:17:26 AM »
Just to be clear, my response was

I thought we clarified what you meant by 'vacuum'. How do "cells," which are presumably things exist in what you call a "vacuum?"

This is my few times on this forum and my original response looked as though it could be lost. Sorry, for the noise.

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hoppy

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 11428
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #542 on: June 28, 2013, 06:25:51 AM »
Just to be clear, my response was

I thought we clarified what you meant by 'vacuum'. How do "cells," which are presumably things exist in what you call a "vacuum?"

This is my few times on this forum and my original response looked as though it could be lost. Sorry, for the noise.
How earth became to be like it is, in that suspended space is the 64 trillion dollar question and I don't have the first clue to that any more than knowing if god is real.
God is real, he created the heaven and the earth.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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nph

  • 17
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #543 on: June 28, 2013, 06:26:33 AM »
Okay . . . what is a vacuum (as far as you're concerned)? Is it a space with nothing or a space that has both visible (eg, Earth) and invisible "cells?"

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nph

  • 17
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #544 on: June 28, 2013, 06:38:05 AM »
Okay . . . what is a vacuum (as far as you're concerned)? Is it a space with nothing or a space that has both visible (eg, Earth) and invisible "cells?"
A true vacuum is nothingness.

-----
So, rockets do not work in a (true) vacuum because there would be no rockets.  Good point.
-----
It's a good question, because it can be argued that out side of earth, space cannot be a true vacuum because it has earth in it, so the easiest answer would be... everything outside of earth or earth like domes, is a complete vacuum.
As for invisible particles...we can list earth as one, because we can not see through a complete vacuum and absolutely nothing can pass through it.

-----
Huh?
-----

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nph

  • 17
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #545 on: June 28, 2013, 06:44:41 AM »
Okay . . . what is a vacuum (as far as you're concerned)? Is it a space with nothing or a space that has both visible (eg, Earth) and invisible "cells?"
A true vacuum is nothingness.

-----
So, rockets do not work in a (true) vacuum because there would be no rockets.  Good point.
-----
It's a good question, because it can be argued that out side of earth, space cannot be a true vacuum because it has earth in it, so the easiest answer would be... everything outside of earth or earth like domes, is a complete vacuum.
As for invisible particles...we can list earth as one, because we can not see through a complete vacuum and absolutely nothing can pass through it.

-----
Huh?
-----
What part don't you get?

If the Earth is invisible, how are you sure it's flat?

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nph

  • 17
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #546 on: June 28, 2013, 06:53:59 AM »
Okay . . . what is a vacuum (as far as you're concerned)? Is it a space with nothing or a space that has both visible (eg, Earth) and invisible "cells?"
A true vacuum is nothingness.

-----
So, rockets do not work in a (true) vacuum because there would be no rockets.  Good point.
-----
It's a good question, because it can be argued that out side of earth, space cannot be a true vacuum because it has earth in it, so the easiest answer would be... everything outside of earth or earth like domes, is a complete vacuum.
As for invisible particles...we can list earth as one, because we can not see through a complete vacuum and absolutely nothing can pass through it.

-----
Huh?
-----
What part don't you get?

If the Earth is invisible, how are you sure it's flat?
The earth is very much visible to us, because we are on the inside of it with atmosphere.
If it were possible to dunk you in the vacuum outside of earth, you would not see earth, because there is nothing for your eyes to to receive light, because there is nothing for light to pass through "nothingness."

1) Once I'm in the "vacuum," it's no longer a "vacuum," according to your definition.
2) Didn't this thread die when you admitted the tautology that rockets fail to work in space (i.e., a true vacuum) because there are no rockets in space?

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DuckDodgers

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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #547 on: June 28, 2013, 07:10:01 AM »
So since the moon is within the dome and there is still some atmosphere there, a rocket could make it there?
There is no atmosphere there that can sustain flight or human life.
The atmosphere is hydrogen/helium etc, gases.
But rockets just need any atmosphere to function I thought.  As long as the exhaust can push on something it can fly can't it?  The rocket itself will support life just fine.  And since there is atmosphere,  there is pressure so it won't rupture.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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Shmeggley

  • 1909
  • Eppur si muove!
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #548 on: June 28, 2013, 07:37:07 AM »
Okay . . . what is a vacuum (as far as you're concerned)? Is it a space with nothing or a space that has both visible (eg, Earth) and invisible "cells?"
A true vacuum is nothingness.

-----
So, rockets do not work in a (true) vacuum because there would be no rockets.  Good point.
-----
It's a good question, because it can be argued that out side of earth, space cannot be a true vacuum because it has earth in it, so the easiest answer would be... everything outside of earth or earth like domes, is a complete vacuum.
As for invisible particles...we can list earth as one, because we can not see through a complete vacuum and absolutely nothing can pass through it.

-----
Huh?
-----
What part don't you get?

If the Earth is invisible, how are you sure it's flat?
The earth is very much visible to us, because we are on the inside of it with atmosphere.
If it were possible to dunk you in the vacuum outside of earth, you would not see earth, because there is nothing for your eyes to to receive light, because there is nothing for light to pass through "nothingness."

Obviously things can move through a vacuum. What do you think air molecules move through? Same with light, it doesn't need a medium because we know it's made of particles. These move through empty space, even when they are moving "through" air - they are moving through the spaces between air molecules. Of course they hit air molecules too, that's how light gets scattered. So your vacuum concept itself is incoherent.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 08:34:38 AM by Shmeggley »
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

*

markjo

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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #549 on: June 28, 2013, 07:52:09 AM »
Scepti . . . is a vacuum (a perfect one) a space with nothing in it (i.e., empty)?
Outside of the earth's dome, it's a perfect vacuum, I believe.
Then why does the perfect vacuum outside the dome not try to equalize with the 14.7 psi within the dome and thereby shatter the dome?
Why should it?
The ice dome froze in place because it was fully expanded and became dormant and froze against that vacuum, meaning the equalisation is already done=zero.
You have been arguing, for I don't know how many pages, that any pressure vessel will rupture when exposed to a perfect vacuum.  Therefore, it seems only logical that the ice dome (a pressure vessel that maintains the atmosphere) would rupture when exposed to a perfect vacuum. 

Besides, how can something (the ice dome) freeze against nothing (a perfect vacuum)?  ???
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #550 on: June 28, 2013, 08:09:29 AM »
So since the moon is within the dome and there is still some atmosphere there, a rocket could make it there?
There is no atmosphere there that can sustain flight or human life.
The atmosphere is hydrogen/helium etc, gases.
But rockets just need any atmosphere to function I thought.  As long as the exhaust can push on something it can fly can't it?  The rocket itself will support life just fine.  And since there is atmosphere,  there is pressure so it won't rupture.
The pressure inside a rocket is greater than outside at that height, so it's bye bye rocket.
The outside pressure would increase where it contacts the rocket to equalize the pressures.   So as long as the rocket can withstand the squeeze of atmospheric pressure,  it's safe and thus still works. 
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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nph

  • 17
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #551 on: June 28, 2013, 08:24:28 AM »
Okay . . . what is a vacuum (as far as you're concerned)? Is it a space with nothing or a space that has both visible (eg, Earth) and invisible "cells?"
A true vacuum is nothingness.

-----
So, rockets do not work in a (true) vacuum because there would be no rockets.  Good point.
-----
It's a good question, because it can be argued that out side of earth, space cannot be a true vacuum because it has earth in it, so the easiest answer would be... everything outside of earth or earth like domes, is a complete vacuum.
As for invisible particles...we can list earth as one, because we can not see through a complete vacuum and absolutely nothing can pass through it.

-----
Huh?
-----
What part don't you get?

If the Earth is invisible, how are you sure it's flat?
The earth is very much visible to us, because we are on the inside of it with atmosphere.
If it were possible to dunk you in the vacuum outside of earth, you would not see earth, because there is nothing for your eyes to to receive light, because there is nothing for light to pass through "nothingness."

1) Once I'm in the "vacuum," it's no longer a "vacuum," according to your definition.
2) Didn't this thread die when you admitted the tautology that rockets fail to work in space (i.e., a true vacuum) because there are no rockets in space?
If it died, then why are you posting in it?

Is that an answer to my question? If anything, I've helped your cause by pointing out your trivial tautology. 55 pages of BS that rested upon a trivial definition. If we assume your definition of a vacuum, then your point about rockets is made.

It seemed to me that most of your interactions with others in this thread have been based upon a lack of common understanding of the terminology. Now that we have a clear(er) understanding of what you mean by 'vacuum', you have failed to address issues that are based upon that meaning.

Basically, why doesn't the Earth-cell explode into the vacuum that surrounds it?

I patiently await your "commonsense, logical explanation"

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markjo

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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #552 on: June 28, 2013, 08:26:23 AM »
Scepti . . . is a vacuum (a perfect one) a space with nothing in it (i.e., empty)?
Outside of the earth's dome, it's a perfect vacuum, I believe.
Then why does the perfect vacuum outside the dome not try to equalize with the 14.7 psi within the dome and thereby shatter the dome?
Why should it?
The ice dome froze in place because it was fully expanded and became dormant and froze against that vacuum, meaning the equalisation is already done=zero.
You have been arguing, for I don't know how many pages, that any pressure vessel will rupture when exposed to a perfect vacuum.  Therefore, it seems only logical that the ice dome (a pressure vessel that maintains the atmosphere) would rupture when exposed to a perfect vacuum. 

Besides, how can something (the ice dome) freeze against nothing (a perfect vacuum)?  ???
I'm getting a bit shocked at you Markjo.

Here's a question...and if you answer this, then it might go a long way into helping you understand what I'm talking about.

Why does water turn to ice?
Because as the liquid water molecules lose energy, they experience a phase change where they come together to form a solid, crystalline matrix.  However, liquid water cannot exist in a vacuum and as water vapor in the air cools and condenses, the condensate becomes more dense than the atmosphere and tends to fall to earth as rain or snow.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Shmeggley

  • 1909
  • Eppur si muove!
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #553 on: June 28, 2013, 08:35:59 AM »
Okay . . . what is a vacuum (as far as you're concerned)? Is it a space with nothing or a space that has both visible (eg, Earth) and invisible "cells?"
A true vacuum is nothingness.

-----
So, rockets do not work in a (true) vacuum because there would be no rockets.  Good point.
-----
It's a good question, because it can be argued that out side of earth, space cannot be a true vacuum because it has earth in it, so the easiest answer would be... everything outside of earth or earth like domes, is a complete vacuum.
As for invisible particles...we can list earth as one, because we can not see through a complete vacuum and absolutely nothing can pass through it.

-----
Huh?
-----
What part don't you get?

If the Earth is invisible, how are you sure it's flat?
The earth is very much visible to us, because we are on the inside of it with atmosphere.
If it were possible to dunk you in the vacuum outside of earth, you would not see earth, because there is nothing for your eyes to to receive light, because there is nothing for light to pass through "nothingness."

Obviously things can move through a vacuum. What do you think air molecules move through? Same with light, it doesn't need a medium because we know it's made of particles. These move through empty space, even when they are moving "through" air - they are moving through the spaces between air molecules. Of course they hit air molecules too, that's how light gets scattered. So your vacuum concept itself if incoherent.
Nothing moves in a vacuum .NOTHING.
No particles....NOTHING.
No light, which are just super agitated molecules/particles/matter, anyway...MOVES.

So what are air molecules moving through?
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

*

DuckDodgers

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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #554 on: June 28, 2013, 08:39:32 AM »
So since the moon is within the dome and there is still some atmosphere there, a rocket could make it there?
There is no atmosphere there that can sustain flight or human life.
The atmosphere is hydrogen/helium etc, gases.
But rockets just need any atmosphere to function I thought.  As long as the exhaust can push on something it can fly can't it?  The rocket itself will support life just fine.  And since there is atmosphere,  there is pressure so it won't rupture.
The pressure inside a rocket is greater than outside at that height, so it's bye bye rocket.
The outside pressure would increase where it contacts the rocket to equalize the pressures.   So as long as the rocket can withstand the squeeze of atmospheric pressure,  it's safe and thus still works.
The atmosphere at that height would be very low pressure against high pressure inside the rocket.
The air would expand inside the rocket and breach it. End of rocket.
But as long as there is pressure outside it can still work to equalize with the internal pressure,  right?  So maybe we need some figures as to how far at the moon is, how high the dome is,  and what is "low" to you in terms of the pressure at the height of the moon.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

?

nph

  • 17
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #555 on: June 28, 2013, 08:49:03 AM »
Okay . . . what is a vacuum (as far as you're concerned)? Is it a space with nothing or a space that has both visible (eg, Earth) and invisible "cells?"
A true vacuum is nothingness.

-----
So, rockets do not work in a (true) vacuum because there would be no rockets.  Good point.
-----
It's a good question, because it can be argued that out side of earth, space cannot be a true vacuum because it has earth in it, so the easiest answer would be... everything outside of earth or earth like domes, is a complete vacuum.
As for invisible particles...we can list earth as one, because we can not see through a complete vacuum and absolutely nothing can pass through it.

-----
Huh?
-----
What part don't you get?

If the Earth is invisible, how are you sure it's flat?
The earth is very much visible to us, because we are on the inside of it with atmosphere.
If it were possible to dunk you in the vacuum outside of earth, you would not see earth, because there is nothing for your eyes to to receive light, because there is nothing for light to pass through "nothingness."

1) Once I'm in the "vacuum," it's no longer a "vacuum," according to your definition.
2) Didn't this thread die when you admitted the tautology that rockets fail to work in space (i.e., a true vacuum) because there are no rockets in space?
If it died, then why are you posting in it?

Is that an answer to my question? If anything, I've helped your cause by pointing out your trivial tautology. 55 pages of BS that rested upon a trivial definition. If we assume your definition of a vacuum, then your point about rockets is made.

It seemed to me that most of your interactions with others in this thread have been based upon a lack of common understanding of the terminology. Now that we have a clear(er) understanding of what you mean by 'vacuum', you have failed to address issues that are based upon that meaning.

Basically, why doesn't the Earth-cell explode into the vacuum that surrounds it?

I patiently await your "commonsense, logical explanation"
Go back and read the topic instead of jumping in head first and you'll know.

I did read it (about 20 pages). It's magic. 15 = 0. Well, okay. You're getting testy all of a sudden.


*

DuckDodgers

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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #556 on: June 28, 2013, 09:04:28 AM »
By that logic,  planes don't work,  since they have a higher internal pressure than external.  Tires don't work for the same reason and compressed air tanks also don't work.   All of your arguments have been of the lower external pressure increasing to equalize the higher internal.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

?

Shmeggley

  • 1909
  • Eppur si muove!
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #557 on: June 28, 2013, 09:05:55 AM »
Okay . . . what is a vacuum (as far as you're concerned)? Is it a space with nothing or a space that has both visible (eg, Earth) and invisible "cells?"
A true vacuum is nothingness.

-----
So, rockets do not work in a (true) vacuum because there would be no rockets.  Good point.
-----
It's a good question, because it can be argued that out side of earth, space cannot be a true vacuum because it has earth in it, so the easiest answer would be... everything outside of earth or earth like domes, is a complete vacuum.
As for invisible particles...we can list earth as one, because we can not see through a complete vacuum and absolutely nothing can pass through it.

-----
Huh?
-----
What part don't you get?

If the Earth is invisible, how are you sure it's flat?
The earth is very much visible to us, because we are on the inside of it with atmosphere.
If it were possible to dunk you in the vacuum outside of earth, you would not see earth, because there is nothing for your eyes to to receive light, because there is nothing for light to pass through "nothingness."

Obviously things can move through a vacuum. What do you think air molecules move through? Same with light, it doesn't need a medium because we know it's made of particles. These move through empty space, even when they are moving "through" air - they are moving through the spaces between air molecules. Of course they hit air molecules too, that's how light gets scattered. So your vacuum concept itself if incoherent.
Nothing moves in a vacuum .NOTHING.
No particles....NOTHING.
No light, which are just super agitated molecules/particles/matter, anyway...MOVES.

So what are air molecules moving through?
?

Come on Sceptimatic, think. Consider an individual air molecule, say an O2 molecule. It's zipping around on its merry way, bouncing off of other air molecules and what not. There's no air surrounding it, because it is the air, or part of the air. That molecule is surrounded by - empty space. And yet it moves, spins, etc. Whereas you are saying that nothing can move in a vacuum.
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

?

Shmeggley

  • 1909
  • Eppur si muove!
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #558 on: June 28, 2013, 09:33:44 AM »

The earth is very much visible to us, because we are on the inside of it with atmosphere.
If it were possible to dunk you in the vacuum outside of earth, you would not see earth, because there is nothing for your eyes to to receive light, because there is nothing for light to pass through "nothingness."

Obviously things can move through a vacuum. What do you think air molecules move through? Same with light, it doesn't need a medium because we know it's made of particles. These move through empty space, even when they are moving "through" air - they are moving through the spaces between air molecules. Of course they hit air molecules too, that's how light gets scattered. So your vacuum concept itself if incoherent.
Nothing moves in a vacuum .NOTHING.
No particles....NOTHING.
No light, which are just super agitated molecules/particles/matter, anyway...MOVES.


Come on Sceptimatic, think. Consider an individual air molecule, say an O2 molecule. It's zipping around on its merry way, bouncing off of other air molecules and what not. There's no air surrounding it, because it is the air, or part of the air. That molecule is surrounded by - empty space. And yet it moves, spins, etc. Whereas you are saying that nothing can move in a vacuum.
Quote
A vacuum is zero pressure, so anything in it becomes zero pressure, which means the ice dome is at zero pressure.

Please note the part in bold, and stick to that. We can deal with ice dome pressure later. If nothing moves in a vacuum, how can air molecules move?
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

?

Shmeggley

  • 1909
  • Eppur si muove!
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #559 on: June 28, 2013, 09:50:05 AM »
Because they are not in a vacuum.

Great, so what is a single oxygen molecule in our atmosphere surrounded by?

Before you say "other air molecules", consider what atmospheric pressure actually is. It's the average force exerted by all the molecules hitting a given area. Therefore a single molecule can't be feeling any pressure from any other molecules until they collide.

So again, a single molecule, not in the middle of colliding with any other molecules, what is it surrounded by?
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

*

DuckDodgers

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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #560 on: June 28, 2013, 10:03:14 AM »
By that logic,  planes don't work,  since they have a higher internal pressure than external.  Tires don't work for the same reason and compressed air tanks also don't work.   All of your arguments have been of the lower external pressure increasing to equalize the higher internal.
Planes fly by creating a lower pressure over the wings making higher pressure give them lift.

You need to read more of this topic, because I've explained everything you are saying.
The cabin on the plane has a greater pressure than the atmosphere it is flying in.  Again, your whole argument on pressure has been about the atmospheric pressure increasing at the point of direct contact with the pressure vessel to equalize the pressures, lower pressure increasing not higher pressure decreasing mind you.  So I again ask why the pressure outside the rocket isn't able to equalize with the internal pressure?  Logically it should be able to since we see it happen at sea level with compressed air tanks.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

?

Shmeggley

  • 1909
  • Eppur si muove!
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #561 on: June 28, 2013, 10:03:49 AM »
Because they are not in a vacuum.

Great, so what is a single oxygen molecule in our atmosphere surrounded by?

Before you say "other air molecules", consider what atmospheric pressure actually is. It's the average force exerted by all the molecules hitting a given area. Therefore a single molecule can't be feeling any pressure from any other molecules until they collide.

So again, a single molecule, not in the middle of colliding with any other molecules, what is it surrounded by?
There isn't a single molecule so it's pointless.

What do you mean there isn't a single molecule? How could there not be? It's already been proven in many ways that matter is made of discrete particles.

Furthermore, it's also known that matter is mostly empty space, therefore your own body is mostly made of empty space. Do you now feel like you're in danger of collapsing?
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

*

DuckDodgers

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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #562 on: June 28, 2013, 10:25:21 AM »
By that logic,  planes don't work,  since they have a higher internal pressure than external.  Tires don't work for the same reason and compressed air tanks also don't work.   All of your arguments have been of the lower external pressure increasing to equalize the higher internal.
Planes fly by creating a lower pressure over the wings making higher pressure give them lift.

You need to read more of this topic, because I've explained everything you are saying.
The cabin on the plane has a greater pressure than the atmosphere it is flying in.  Again, your whole argument on pressure has been about the atmospheric pressure increasing at the point of direct contact with the pressure vessel to equalize the pressures, lower pressure increasing not higher pressure decreasing mind you.  So I again ask why the pressure outside the rocket isn't able to equalize with the internal pressure?  Logically it should be able to since we see it happen at sea level with compressed air tanks.
You are taking "atmospheric pressure" into a rocket, then sending that atmospheric pressure into an environment that is much lower, so as the rocket ascends, the air expands inside the rocket against the low pressure outside of it and boom...rocket breached.
But you have already shown that lower pressures increase when in contact with a higher pressure container in order to equalize it so it doesn't rupture,  you have conclusively shown that it is only the pressures equalizing that prevent catastrophic failure,  and That the container itself just needs to withstand the squeeze of this equalization.  So how doesn't that with with lower outside pressures when they aren't at 14.7 psi?
I think it's about time to put some figures out there so we can figure out the breaking point.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

?

Shmeggley

  • 1909
  • Eppur si muove!
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #563 on: June 28, 2013, 10:25:39 AM »
Because they are not in a vacuum.

Great, so what is a single oxygen molecule in our atmosphere surrounded by?

Before you say "other air molecules", consider what atmospheric pressure actually is. It's the average force exerted by all the molecules hitting a given area. Therefore a single molecule can't be feeling any pressure from any other molecules until they collide.

So again, a single molecule, not in the middle of colliding with any other molecules, what is it surrounded by?
There isn't a single molecule so it's pointless.

What do you mean there isn't a single molecule? How could there not be? It's already been proven in many ways that matter is made of discrete particles.

Furthermore, it's also known that matter is mostly empty space, therefore your own body is mostly made of empty space. Do you now feel like you're in danger of collapsing?
It depends where on earth that matter is for it to be nearly empty space.

No, every molecule is independent and they feel no pressure from other molecules except when they bang into each other. Every individual molecule of air is flying through empty space.
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

*

DuckDodgers

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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #564 on: June 28, 2013, 10:36:20 AM »
By that logic,  planes don't work,  since they have a higher internal pressure than external.  Tires don't work for the same reason and compressed air tanks also don't work.   All of your arguments have been of the lower external pressure increasing to equalize the higher internal.
Planes fly by creating a lower pressure over the wings making higher pressure give them lift.

You need to read more of this topic, because I've explained everything you are saying.
The cabin on the plane has a greater pressure than the atmosphere it is flying in.  Again, your whole argument on pressure has been about the atmospheric pressure increasing at the point of direct contact with the pressure vessel to equalize the pressures, lower pressure increasing not higher pressure decreasing mind you.  So I again ask why the pressure outside the rocket isn't able to equalize with the internal pressure?  Logically it should be able to since we see it happen at sea level with compressed air tanks.
You are taking "atmospheric pressure" into a rocket, then sending that atmospheric pressure into an environment that is much lower, so as the rocket ascends, the air expands inside the rocket against the low pressure outside of it and boom...rocket breached.
But you have already shown that lower pressures increase when in contact with a higher pressure container in order to equalize it so it doesn't rupture,  you have conclusively shown that it is only the pressures equalizing that prevent catastrophic failure,  and That the container itself just needs to withstand the squeeze of this equalization.  So how doesn't that with with lower outside pressures when they aren't at 14.7 psi?
I think it's about time to put some figures out there so we can figure out the breaking point.
It's all explained in the topic. If you can't grasp it , then I doubt you ever will.
What I'm trying to tell you is that the logic I used was your own and you said it didn't work.   The very argument you have been making,  you have just said won't work.
Now put up or shut up, how tall is the dome, how high is the moon,  and what is the pressure at the height of the moon?
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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DuckDodgers

  • One Duck to Rule Them All
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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #565 on: June 28, 2013, 10:49:53 AM »
Your logic defeats itself in a logical argument.   What does that say about your dome earth view?
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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Shmeggley

  • 1909
  • Eppur si muove!
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #566 on: June 28, 2013, 10:52:26 AM »
Because they are not in a vacuum.

Great, so what is a single oxygen molecule in our atmosphere surrounded by?

Before you say "other air molecules", consider what atmospheric pressure actually is. It's the average force exerted by all the molecules hitting a given area. Therefore a single molecule can't be feeling any pressure from any other molecules until they collide.

So again, a single molecule, not in the middle of colliding with any other molecules, what is it surrounded by?
There isn't a single molecule so it's pointless.

What do you mean there isn't a single molecule? How could there not be? It's already been proven in many ways that matter is made of discrete particles.

Furthermore, it's also known that matter is mostly empty space, therefore your own body is mostly made of empty space. Do you now feel like you're in danger of collapsing?
It depends where on earth that matter is for it to be nearly empty space.

No, every molecule is independent and they feel no pressure from other molecules except when they bang into each other. Every individual molecule of air is flying through empty space.
You keep believing that,
I can't help you from this point, sorry.

Sure you can. I suppose you have an alternate theory as to what air is that would explain it. As far as I know, there is space between air molecules. Are you saying there isn't?
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

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DuckDodgers

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Re: Space Flight
« Reply #567 on: June 28, 2013, 10:59:26 AM »
Your logic defeats itself in a logical argument.   What does that say about your dome earth view?
It's you not knowing how atmospheric pressure works, etc that I got bored with. My earth looks stronger as it goes.
I applied your own theory,  go back and read it again.  Not one did I bring in any notion of current views of atmospheric pressure.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

?

Shmeggley

  • 1909
  • Eppur si muove!
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #568 on: June 28, 2013, 11:10:23 AM »
Because they are not in a vacuum.

Great, so what is a single oxygen molecule in our atmosphere surrounded by?

Before you say "other air molecules", consider what atmospheric pressure actually is. It's the average force exerted by all the molecules hitting a given area. Therefore a single molecule can't be feeling any pressure from any other molecules until they collide.

So again, a single molecule, not in the middle of colliding with any other molecules, what is it surrounded by?
There isn't a single molecule so it's pointless.

What do you mean there isn't a single molecule? How could there not be? It's already been proven in many ways that matter is made of discrete particles.

Furthermore, it's also known that matter is mostly empty space, therefore your own body is mostly made of empty space. Do you now feel like you're in danger of collapsing?
It depends where on earth that matter is for it to be nearly empty space.

No, every molecule is independent and they feel no pressure from other molecules except when they bang into each other. Every individual molecule of air is flying through empty space.
You keep believing that,
I can't help you from this point, sorry.

Sure you can. I suppose you have an alternate theory as to what air is that would explain it. As far as I know, there is space between air molecules. Are you saying there isn't?
I depends on their density, as I said before.

What depends on density? I'm asking you, what medium, if any, do air molecules move through? Or if I misunderstand what air actually is, please explain.
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

*

DuckDodgers

  • One Duck to Rule Them All
  • 5129
  • What's supposed to go here?
Re: Space Flight
« Reply #569 on: June 28, 2013, 11:18:54 AM »
I understand pressure just fine.  You don't understand pressure differentials and how easy it is to overcome them.  But that banter could go on all day.
The fact remains that the moon is in the atmosphere,  so there is external pressure,  so this external pressure should increase to equalize the internal pressure of the rocket. This same atmosphere provides the rocket exhaust with matter to react with,  thus making the rocket engine functional.   There is zero reason that we could not go to the moon,  at least no other reason besides the fact that if we have been to the moon,  then your entire world view is incorrect because then those space pictures aren't fake.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.