Do Flat Earthers believe in a heliocentric solar system?

Do FE's believe that the earth revolves around the sun, or do you endorse geocentrism? Or something entirely different all together?

If you do accept heliocentrism as the prevailing solar system orientation, on what grounds do you accept that idea? No body has ever transcended the solar system and taken a picture to prove the earth revolves around the sun? I ask this because the sort of evidence that proves a spherical earth is of the same calibre and same nature as the evidence that proves a heliocentric solar system, it is a sort of inference of circumstantial evidence, we can conclude the earth rotates around the sun because we notice the phases of mercury, elliptical orbits which are explained by general relativity etc...

Do FE's believe that the earth revolves around the sun, or do you endorse geocentrism? Or something entirely different all together?

If you do accept heliocentrism as the prevailing solar system orientation, on what grounds do you accept that idea? No body has ever transcended the solar system and taken a picture to prove the earth revolves around the sun? I ask this because the sort of evidence that proves a spherical earth is of the same calibre and same nature as the evidence that proves a heliocentric solar system, it is a sort of inference of circumstantial evidence, we can conclude the earth rotates around the sun because we notice the phases of mercury, elliptical orbits which are explained by general relativity etc...

The FAQ explains their view of the solar system.

No flat-earther I know of believes in heliocentrism. We believe that the sun circles above the flat earth.

No flat-earther I know of believes in heliocentrism. We believe that the sun circles above the flat earth.

Lurk Moar.

The FET system is heliocentric. The sun is the center of the solar system, which the planets all revolve around.

The earth is infinite and flat and we live on a portion of it, as on a circular part of earth with an ice rim.
All other planets circle around the circular portion that we live on.

It's probably similar for other circular type portions beyond what we know of this earth, that have their own suns, etc.

For that last sentence, would you like to quote a probability?

Quote from: mathsman on May 21, 2013, 02:50:53 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 01:40:33 AM

The earth is infinite and flat and we live on a portion of it, as on a circular part of earth with an ice rim.
All other planets circle around the circular portion that we live on.

It's probably similar for other circular type portions beyond what we know of this earth, that have their own suns, etc.

For that last sentence, would you like to quote a probability?

What do you mean?

You used the term "It's probably similar" when I suspect you actually meant "I imagine it's similar".

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 01:40:33 AM

The earth is infinite and flat and we live on a portion of it, as on a circular part of earth with an ice rim.
All other planets circle around the circular portion that we live on.

It's probably similar for other circular type portions beyond what we know of this earth, that have their own suns, etc.

For that last sentence, would you like to quote a probability?

He gave a qualitative probability, which I would interpret as being >50%.

Quote from: mathsman on May 21, 2013, 02:50:53 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 01:40:33 AM

The earth is infinite and flat and we live on a portion of it, as on a circular part of earth with an ice rim.
All other planets circle around the circular portion that we live on.

It's probably similar for other circular type portions beyond what we know of this earth, that have their own suns, etc.

For that last sentence, would you like to quote a probability?

He gave a qualitative probability, which I would interpret as being >50%.

I'd worked that out for myself. I was hoping for a figure which was a little less vague. Still, your two penn'orth proved invaluable.

Quote from: Manarq on May 21, 2013, 03:50:09 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 03:02:09 AM

Quote from: mathsman on May 21, 2013, 02:50:53 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 01:40:33 AM

The earth is infinite and flat and we live on a portion of it, as on a circular part of earth with an ice rim.
All other planets circle around the circular portion that we live on.

It's probably similar for other circular type portions beyond what we know of this earth, that have their own suns, etc.

For that last sentence, would you like to quote a probability?

What do you mean?

You used the term "It's probably similar" when I suspect you actually meant "I imagine it's similar".

Ok, I'll give you that.

I imagine the world is round. Why am I wrong?

Quote from: mathsman on May 22, 2013, 12:21:24 AM

I imagine the world is round. Why am I wrong?

If you believe it's round, in your mind, then you don't have to be wrong. People can tell you you're wrong. I can tell you, you're wrong but in your mind, it's round, so, if you're happy with that, then you are right, in your own mind but you are wrong in my mind, because the earth is flat.

What does that mean? 'I'm wrong in your mind', 'I'm right in my mind'? Our personal opinions on the shape of the earth don't affect its shape one iota. So I'll ask again: Why are you right and I wrong?

I'm not right and neither are you. We just believe we are right, in our own minds. The reason why we aren't right, is because we cannot physically check out what we believe in.
You can toss a ship load of calculations on the floor, all day and everyday and you are still not correct, yet in your own mind, you are correct, just as in my own mind, I know that the earth is flat.

If I measure the window next to my desk and calculate its area am I wrong about its area? I've just moved house and may need to buy new carpets. If I take some measurements and draw a little diagram of the room, put these measurements on the diagram and take it to the carpet shop am I wrong about the shape of the room?

Quote from: mathsman on May 22, 2013, 01:44:27 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 01:20:27 AM

I'm not right and neither are you. We just believe we are right, in our own minds. The reason why we aren't right, is because we cannot physically check out what we believe in.
You can toss a ship load of calculations on the floor, all day and everyday and you are still not correct, yet in your own mind, you are correct, just as in my own mind, I know that the earth is flat.

If I measure the window next to my desk and calculate its area am I wrong about its area? I've just moved house and may need to buy new carpets. If I take some measurements and draw a little diagram of the room, put these measurements on the diagram and take it to the carpet shop am I wrong about the shape of the room?

You can physically do all this, there is no secret to it or magic.

Then where does the magic kick in regarding the shape of the earth?

Then where does the magic kick in regarding the shape of the earth?

It kicks in when bendy light is proposed. Something that has not physically been shown to ever occur.

On the other hand, physically seeing the sun fall below the horizon, now that is something to ponder.

Quote from: mathsman on May 22, 2013, 02:12:33 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 01:51:44 AM

Quote from: mathsman on May 22, 2013, 01:44:27 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 01:20:27 AM

I'm not right and neither are you. We just believe we are right, in our own minds. The reason why we aren't right, is because we cannot physically check out what we believe in.
You can toss a ship load of calculations on the floor, all day and everyday and you are still not correct, yet in your own mind, you are correct, just as in my own mind, I know that the earth is flat.

If I measure the window next to my desk and calculate its area am I wrong about its area? I've just moved house and may need to buy new carpets. If I take some measurements and draw a little diagram of the room, put these measurements on the diagram and take it to the carpet shop am I wrong about the shape of the room?

You can physically do all this, there is no secret to it or magic.

Then where does the magic kick in regarding the shape of the earth?

Gravity, rotation etc.

Gravity: All objects appear to accelerate towards the ground, which is equivalent to a force being applied to those objects. Since we already witness attraction from a distance by static and magnetism, it isn't too far-fetched to believe that mass attracts as well. There are many other reasons why gravity is proposed, but it has to do with already knowing the shape of the Earth to be round, so I won't include it.

Rotation: According to galilean relativity, you will feel stationary whether your surroundings are moving relative to another surrounding or not, such as sitting in the seat of your non-accelerating car.

Ok, now you give an explanation for bendy light. Since it has never been witnessed to ever happen the way it should, how can you believe in it?

Quote from: mathsman on May 22, 2013, 02:12:33 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 01:51:44 AM

Quote from: mathsman on May 22, 2013, 01:44:27 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 01:20:27 AM

I'm not right and neither are you. We just believe we are right, in our own minds. The reason why we aren't right, is because we cannot physically check out what we believe in.
You can toss a ship load of calculations on the floor, all day and everyday and you are still not correct, yet in your own mind, you are correct, just as in my own mind, I know that the earth is flat.

If I measure the window next to my desk and calculate its area am I wrong about its area? I've just moved house and may need to buy new carpets. If I take some measurements and draw a little diagram of the room, put these measurements on the diagram and take it to the carpet shop am I wrong about the shape of the room?

You can physically do all this, there is no secret to it or magic.

Then where does the magic kick in regarding the shape of the earth?

Gravity, rotation etc.

I'm not interested in gravity or rotation I'm interested in shape. For example, a custom made explorer map from the Ordnance Survey covers an area of 20km x 20km, can I trust the details on this map?

A mass magnet will definitely attract or repel.
Mass alone won't attract or repel Jack Skippety.

Which you're basing off nothing. I said that since we already see attractive and repulsive forces at work here on Earth, then it's plausible for gravity to exist as well. And of course your next reply is "I know mass doesn't attract derp".

It kicks in when bendy light is proposed. Something that has not physically been shown to ever occur.

Are you saying that reflection, refraction, diffraction, et al., are not phenomenon associated with light bending? 

I'm not interested in gravity or rotation I'm interested in shape. For example, a custom made explorer map from the Ordnance Survey covers an area of 20km x 20km, can I trust the details on this map?

Local maps work.  That is why people use them. 

Quote from: Puttah on May 22, 2013, 02:22:11 AM

It kicks in when bendy light is proposed. Something that has not physically been shown to ever occur.

Are you saying that reflection, refraction, diffraction, et al., are not phenomenon associated with light bending?

Light bending =/= bendy light.
Reflection, refraction and diffraction are all well understood and there are equations to describe their properties, but bendy light in the way that it must work has never been observed.

Why the hell should mass alone attract anything. You don't see ants stuck to mountains do you, unless they decide to crawl up of their own accord.

Why the hell should a bar magnet attract anything? Seriously, you sound like you're offended by how our Universe works.

But the ant does get attracted, but the amount it gets attracted is miniscule compared to the force of gravity.

I'm not offended by how our universe works. I'm offended by how we are told it works.

Because it's an attraction based on mass and not electricity or magnetism?

That's like a small child seeing people with 2 legs and dogs with 4 legs but being completely against the idea of the world containing a creature with a different number of legs.

Oh, and I'm offended by bendy light theory. It's a disgrace against the scientific method. To begin with the assumption that the world is flat, and then finding evidence that completely debunks your initial assumption, so you build further theories that have never been observed to happen to explain the anomaly in the data.

If this is what the zetetic method condones, then it's embarrassingly illogical.

First of all, why should the mass of anything, attract something else? What is contained in this mass that makes it attract something?

What is contained in bar magnets that makes it attract certain metals? What is in these certain metals that other metals don't have?

You say that flat earth believers build further theories and class that as wrong, yet you willingly go along with Einsteins (and others) theories of special relativity and other made to fit hogwash and think that's ok.

Hmmm.

The development of Einstein's theories of relativity went something like this:

The Earth is known to be round due to many pieces of evidence and experiments that can reproduce those results, and it is also known to circle the sun for reasons that Galileo found dating back 400 years. Thus, experiments were conducted to find the expected change in the speed of light in different frames of reference. No such change was found. The experiment was repeated many times and in many different ways, and still there was no observed change in the speed of light. Because of this, it was theorized that light doesn't have a specific frame of reference (because that is what the experiments showed) and the consequences of this is what stemmed into the theory of relativity.

The development of bendy light theory went something like this:

The Earth is theorized to be flat because the ground seems flat. The sun is known to fall into the horizon, but this doesn't make any sense if the Earth is flat, hence light must bend in a way to make it seem like the sun falls into the horizon, but actually doesn't. No experiment has been conducted and it has never observed to actually happen.

That isn't science, that's faith.

The sun doesn't go down on the horizon, it moves away from it and that's why you see it appear to drop.
It's like looking at a car next to you and then watching it go down the road, slowly disappearing and is the same with ships disappearing hull first then mast, the further away they get.

That'd work if the Sun was traveling linearly,  but it would be traveling in a circle.   Plus the Sun would appear to get smaller as it gets closer to the horizon, which it doesn't.

If you look at it from the perspective of your own eyes

lol would you recommend another perspective? 

seeing the horizon, then the sun will appear to be sliced away at the bottom the further away it moves.
You still see the sun as the massive object because your eyes are looking up above the horizon and seeing it as it is in the sky but your view of the horizon, sees the bottom slowly get sliced away like chopped pork on a butchers slicer.

Even you know that objects further away look smaller. But here's a picture to help illustrate this very simple idea of objects moving further away.



Now clearly the blue angle is larger than the red one, and this is why distant objects appear smaller than up close. Also, I can't figure out how the sun is supposed to have its bottom half under the horizon. Can you please show me?

Oh and by the way, it's pretty obvious that you're talking out of your ass here, but I enjoy watching you squirm, so have at it.

Here's a sunrise. Now I want you to look at the sea and imagine it as being a road and you are driving down this road whilst picturing the sun as a car coming from the opposite direction.
Does this look like it's rising to you, or coming at you?

Also, look at the reflection on the water. If that sun was rising, that reflection would not be seen so quickly but it would if the sun was coming down the highway. Think of it as a car with a bright light coming at you from distance, only on a big scale.


#ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Scene from Florida HD bonus: speedy sunrise

This is a joke right?   When i see a car moving away from me,  it grows smaller and smaller and follows the road.   The Sun doesn'tgrow or shrink by any significant amount during the day.   Not only that,  but it travels in a straight line across the sky instead of a curved one.   If Earth were flat I'd expect to see the Sun rise somewhere to my north and small,  come over head at noon and be bigger,  then start shrinking and heading north again.   This is not what is seen.  And I'm not speaking of heading directly north but in a northerly direction.

Here's a sunrise. Now I want you to look at the sea and imagine it as being a road and you are driving down this road whilst picturing the sun as a car coming from the opposite direction.
Does this look like it's rising to you, or coming at you?

Also, look at the reflection on the water. If that sun was rising, that reflection would not be seen so quickly but it would if the sun was coming down the highway. Think of it as a car with a bright light coming at you from distance, only on a big scale.

Ok hang on just a second. These arguments you're making about what we're seeing during a sunrise, is this based purely on what you see, or what you believe the shape of the Earth is and thus what you think you're seeing?

Because it's very obvious that it's the latter. Why? Because I just showed you a picture of what you'd expect to see if an object moved away on a flat Earth - it would get smaller as it moved away - and you haven't addressed this point at all. You purposely ignored it.

Now, if I saw a car coming from down the highway, it would start off small and get bigger as it got closer. This doesn't happen with the sun. Also, the reflection on the water that you see in the first half of the video isn't from direct sunlight, it's from the sky. You know, the sky that is being lit up by the sun that is just over the horizon.

As for the car analogy, may I remind you that the sun is very high in the sky? An aeroplane would suit the analogy better, don't you think? Well, if I saw an aeroplane flying away from me, it would get too small to see before it ever reached the horizon, which is totally different to what I'm observing with the sun.

I did mention, "on a bigger scale"...the sun is huge, yet the horizon is the same no matter how hard you look.
If the sun is coming on from far out, you see it appear bit by bit.
The sun is so big that it's size won't appear to change much according to your perspective, yet a car would.

So think of it like this.
Imagine a truck on a see through highway in the sky and imagine seeing it from thousands of miles away, just coming into focus, until you see the full truck. Because of it's size, it will not change in size to you from your own vision.

No matter how big an object is,  it will ALWAYS appear smaller the further you are from it.   That is the simple fact of perspective.   If you see a giant redwood in the distance,  you could cover it with your hand.   As you start moving toward it,  it gets bigger, it'll eventually require your whole arm to cover it,  and then it'll get too large for you to hide it from your vision.   Of you were to stand at it's trunk,  you'd have to look straight up to try to see the entire tree.   You cannot escape this rule of perspective without completely redefining everything.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on May 22, 2013, 10:59:38 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 10:51:58 AM

I did mention, "on a bigger scale"...the sun is huge, yet the horizon is the same no matter how hard you look.
If the sun is coming on from far out, you see it appear bit by bit.
The sun is so big that it's size won't appear to change much according to your perspective, yet a car would.

So think of it like this.
Imagine a truck on a see through highway in the sky and imagine seeing it from thousands of miles away, just coming into focus, until you see the full truck. Because of it's size, it will not change in size to you from your own vision.

No matter how big an object is,  it will ALWAYS appear smaller the further you are from it.   That is the simple fact of perspective.   If you see a giant redwood in the distance,  you could cover it with your hand.   As you start moving toward it,  it gets bigger, it'll eventually require your whole arm to cover it,  and then it'll get too large for you to hide it from your vision.   Of you were to stand at it's trunk,  you'd have to look straight up to try to see the entire tree.   You cannot escape this rule of perspective without completely redefining everything.

We aren't talking about a giant redwood. It's a spelk compared to the sun.

Perspective doesn't cease to function just because of the size of an object.   

Quote from: DuckDodgers on May 22, 2013, 11:42:19 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 11:16:17 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on May 22, 2013, 10:59:38 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 10:51:58 AM

I did mention, "on a bigger scale"...the sun is huge, yet the horizon is the same no matter how hard you look.
If the sun is coming on from far out, you see it appear bit by bit.
The sun is so big that it's size won't appear to change much according to your perspective, yet a car would.

So think of it like this.
Imagine a truck on a see through highway in the sky and imagine seeing it from thousands of miles away, just coming into focus, until you see the full truck. Because of it's size, it will not change in size to you from your own vision.

No matter how big an object is,  it will ALWAYS appear smaller the further you are from it.   That is the simple fact of perspective.   If you see a giant redwood in the distance,  you could cover it with your hand.   As you start moving toward it,  it gets bigger, it'll eventually require your whole arm to cover it,  and then it'll get too large for you to hide it from your vision.   Of you were to stand at it's trunk,  you'd have to look straight up to try to see the entire tree.   You cannot escape this rule of perspective without completely redefining everything.

We aren't talking about a giant redwood. It's a spelk compared to the sun.

Perspective doesn't cease to function just because of the size of an object.

Round earth sun = 93 million miles, plus 1000,000 km diameter.
You keep telling me perception doesn't change.

93 million frigging miles for gods sake.

What's 93 million miles compared to an infinitely large flat earth?

Quote from: DuckDodgers on May 22, 2013, 11:42:19 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 11:16:17 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on May 22, 2013, 10:59:38 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 10:51:58 AM

I did mention, "on a bigger scale"...the sun is huge, yet the horizon is the same no matter how hard you look.
If the sun is coming on from far out, you see it appear bit by bit.
The sun is so big that it's size won't appear to change much according to your perspective, yet a car would.

So think of it like this.
Imagine a truck on a see through highway in the sky and imagine seeing it from thousands of miles away, just coming into focus, until you see the full truck. Because of it's size, it will not change in size to you from your own vision.

No matter how big an object is,  it will ALWAYS appear smaller the further you are from it.   That is the simple fact of perspective.   If you see a giant redwood in the distance,  you could cover it with your hand.   As you start moving toward it,  it gets bigger, it'll eventually require your whole arm to cover it,  and then it'll get too large for you to hide it from your vision.   Of you were to stand at it's trunk,  you'd have to look straight up to try to see the entire tree.   You cannot escape this rule of perspective without completely redefining everything.

We aren't talking about a giant redwood. It's a spelk compared to the sun.

Perspective doesn't cease to function just because of the size of an object.

Round earth sun = 93 million miles, plus 1000,000 km diameter.
You keep telling me perception doesn't change.

93 million frigging miles for gods sake.

What does this have to do with perspective and the fact that the Sun does not appear to increase in size at midday and shrink at sunrise and sunset?

Quote from: markjo on May 22, 2013, 11:57:47 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 11:54:02 AM

Round earth sun = 93 million miles, plus 1000,000 km diameter.
You keep telling me perception doesn't change.

93 million frigging miles for gods sake.

What's 93 million miles compared to an infinitely large flat earth?

The sun we see, does not light and heat an infinite flat earth. Just the portion we live on, as in the circle we call our earth.

What does that have to do with perspective or the size of and distance to the sun?