Sunset related observations

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markjo

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2013, 05:04:54 PM »
As near as I can tell, this is the only flat earth model that matches real world observations.

Whose observations? All you guys give us regarding the position of the sun are internet sun calculators, which are based on calculation rather than observation.

Yet it's easy enough to confirm whether or not observations match those calculations.  I can tell you from personal experience that the sunsets that I have observed do.

Where has your work been published?

Why would I need to publish the work?  ???

Quote
And, as pointed out in another thread where these sunset calculators were brought up, they have been confirmed accurate by anyone who has ever used them, anywhere, ever!

Where are these observations being published? In six years of asking I have not seen any of you present a source.

And for five or more years I've been asking you to get off your lazy butt and confirm the results for yourself.  That is the Zetetic way, isn't it?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2013, 05:07:58 PM »
You don't really need to see any data being published as you can verify the calculators by walking outside your house on any given day of the year.

No I can't. At most any such data I can collect would only be accurate for my location or latitude, and would only tell me how the Flat Earth sun must behave at my specific location. A comprehensive study at different latitudes and locations would be needed to demonstrate the sun to cast odd or impossible shapes in its distribution of light on a flat map, as is typically criticized on this forum.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 05:12:05 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2013, 05:10:13 PM »
And for five or more years I've been asking you to get off your lazy butt and confirm the results for yourself.  That is the Zetetic way, isn't it?

Why would I need to travel the world if I am constantly told that the sunlight times in the calculators have already been verified?

You can simply show us your source you've been hiding from us all of these years.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2013, 05:13:05 PM »
And for five or more years I've been asking you to get off your lazy butt and confirm the results for yourself.  That is the Zetetic way, isn't it?

Why would I need to travel the world if I am constantly told that the sunlight times in the calculators have already been verified?

You can simply show us your source you've been hiding from us all of these years.

You can calculate for your location sunrise and sunset each day throughout the year, this should give you a good idea that it is accurate for your location, which you can assume the rest would be accurate from that.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2013, 05:16:36 PM »
Why would I assume that the rest of the world is like my location?

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Scintific Method

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2013, 05:19:03 PM »
A comprehensive study at different latitudes and locations would be needed to demonstrate the sun to cast odd or impossible shapes in its distribution of light on a flat map, as is typically criticized on this forum.

This would require travel, or collaboration.

Why would I need to travel the world...?

To carry out the study you wanted.
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...the FE'ers still found a way to deny it. Not with counter arguments. Not with proof of any kind. By simply denying it.

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Rama Set

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2013, 05:22:57 PM »
Why would I assume that the rest of the world is like my location?

You do it all the time.  Why stop now?
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DuckDodgers

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2013, 05:24:35 PM »
Why would I assume that the rest of the world is like my location?

It's not assuming the rest of the world is like your location, but that the calculations for your location is accurate, so the calculations for the rest of the world would be accurate.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

?

Scintific Method

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2013, 05:35:30 PM »
Another way to check would be to look up recorded sunrise/sunset times for various locations around the world at various times of year, then use one of these online calculators to find the times for that location at that time of year. If the two times were within 5 - 10 minutes, that would be pretty accurate.

Come to think of it, someone on this forum already did look up those records and created a pretty reasonable map of lighted areas of the earth for the solstices and equinoxes. When I find that thread, I'll link it here.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 06:21:46 PM by Scintific Method »
Quote from: jtelroy
...the FE'ers still found a way to deny it. Not with counter arguments. Not with proof of any kind. By simply denying it.

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2013, 05:41:55 PM »
Why would I assume that the rest of the world is like my location?

It's not assuming the rest of the world is like your location, but that the calculations for your location is accurate, so the calculations for the rest of the world would be accurate.

If the calculations are accurate for my location, how does that verify the accuracy of the internet sun calculators? Whoever programmed it may have forced it to be at least semi-accurate with observation for their own country. It would not verify that the sun calculator is accurate world-wide.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2013, 05:43:36 PM »
A comprehensive study at different latitudes and locations would be needed to demonstrate the sun to cast odd or impossible shapes in its distribution of light on a flat map, as is typically criticized on this forum.

This would require travel, or collaboration.

Why would I need to travel the world...?

To carry out the study you wanted.

So, in other words, in order to know whether the internet sun calculators are accurate I need to conduct my own world-wide study of it, and that zero observational evidence presently exists to corroborate the calculations, correct?

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Rama Set

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2013, 05:47:10 PM »
Why would I assume that the rest of the world is like my location?

It's not assuming the rest of the world is like your location, but that the calculations for your location is accurate, so the calculations for the rest of the world would be accurate.

If the calculations are accurate for my location, how does that verify the accuracy of the internet sun calculators? Whoever programmed it may have forced it to be at least semi-accurate with observation for their own country. It would not verify that the sun calculator is accurate world-wide.

Fortunately you are part of a community of like-minded thinkers, adn you could ask the various denizens of the FES to help.  You have people in Australia, England, Canada, Africa, South America.  You could get a lot of work done very easily... If you actually want to.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2013, 05:48:20 PM »
Why would I assume that the rest of the world is like my location?

It's not assuming the rest of the world is like your location, but that the calculations for your location is accurate, so the calculations for the rest of the world would be accurate.

If the calculations are accurate for my location, how does that verify the accuracy of the internet sun calculators? Whoever programmed it may have forced it to be at least semi-accurate with observation for their own country. It would not verify that the sun calculator is accurate world-wide.

The likelihood that someone made a calculator specifically to be accurate for your location and no where else is very slim IMHO.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

*

Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2013, 05:56:38 PM »
Why would I assume that the rest of the world is like my location?

It's not assuming the rest of the world is like your location, but that the calculations for your location is accurate, so the calculations for the rest of the world would be accurate.

If the calculations are accurate for my location, how does that verify the accuracy of the internet sun calculators? Whoever programmed it may have forced it to be at least semi-accurate with observation for their own country. It would not verify that the sun calculator is accurate world-wide.

Fortunately you are part of a community of like-minded thinkers, adn you could ask the various denizens of the FES to help.  You have people in Australia, England, Canada, Africa, South America.  You could get a lot of work done very easily... If you actually want to.

It is you RE'ers who claim that the RE calculators are true. Those are not our claims. If you stand behind your model feel free to organize such a study and buy everyone a sextant and train them on its use. Don't ask me to do your work.

Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2013, 05:57:29 PM »
Why would I assume that the rest of the world is like my location?

That is a rightful question. That is why you need to travel. But let me explain you a bit about the history of mankind.
Let me explain you about where all the stuff we know come from (in a nutshell, while you can still imagine it)

Introduction

Nowadays we got clocks, we got satellites, computers, all sort of stuff that help us determine something. But they all work on a simple entity. Numbers. We humans have developed a system to count things. The romans did using their style of numbers e.g. I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, etc. In the history of mankind there were different civilizations with each their own mathematics. Some of their work is still in use today like the Pythagorean theorem, by the Ancient Greek philosopher Pythagorean. The history shows us different civilizations which used the 'zero' or nothing, before eventually getting brought to Europe by the Arabian mathematicians.

Agreement


Our numbers today 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc, etc, etc all have a meaning, because we agreed that 1 means...well what 1 means now. A single thing. 2 means that there is twice that one thing, and so on. For the same reason we could have agreed on an order like 5, 1, 3, 2, 4. Or we could have had different symbols, just like the Romans had different symbols for their numbers. There is no fixed things that tells us what to do, but we simply agreed to use a single system.

Observating the world around us
The same applies to time. Before any sense of time humans could see at their surroundings what time it was. Were the leafs falling of the trees? "Ah, it is that distinguishing thing we see that tells us we need to harvest our crops". It were the first notions of time. As mankind began to evolve and starting to invent and understand more of its surroundings, patterns became apparent. There is darkness, there is light. When there is light there is this big yellow thing moving across the sky. If it is dark we sometimes see a grey disk. At some point in history mankind named the big yellow thing the sun and at some point in history the returning of the sun everyday is another thing what we now call as 'day'.

The ancient Egyptians were worshipping the Sun as if it was a god they need to please. You do not want to make the God angry so it makes the sun disappear. This may have been a phenomena we now know as the solar eclipse and also at the end of every day the sun disappears out of sight, so you better be nice to the god so it will come back. That god was named "Ra" in ancient Egypt. But I digress.

The sense of time was born and there came tools to determine the time more accurately. There were sundials. Each day there is a point when the sun no longer rises above the horizon, but starts to descend again. That moment is what we now know as noon.

As mankind we just simply started to agree to means of measurement. Romans were able to measure the circumference of the earth using the stars and the amount of degrees from your point of view it stands up from the horizon. The Romans understood they were living on a spherical earth, so they travelled along the longitudes to get their measurement and then used maths to calculate the earth's circumference entirely.

How to calculate and know stuff

Sometimes you just need a small part to calculate the rest. For example we now have a standard saying a circle consists of 360 degrees. If I say 1 degree is equal to 1cm, then how much is the circumference of the entire circle? (Answer at the bottom).

As mankind began to explore the world maps were needed to navigate. Early maps were mostly inaccurate and incomplete. As the first Europeans start to sail the world, more maps were made. Using tools and simple means of measurement they were able to make much better maps. As they explored the earth they drew the maps. It is not like they had a map right away. Columbus did not even know about the existence of North America, but only thought he could also sail west instead of east to reach Asia. Unknown to him he discovered a whole new continent and at first he called the native americans Indians (from India, which you may know is in the east from a European perspective).

I could continue to talk on about all sorts of developments, but to make a much longer story shorter. The ways we measure things have been standarized and from there you just use the same equations and calculations to get your results. If you say 2+2 = 4, then the next time you have twice of two you will know it is 4 as well and not 5 this time, because you feel about it.
The same goes for all the maths in physics. They apply the same rules to everything, everyday. F = m a
the a is calculated by A = m/s /s in which m/s is the speed in meters per second, the s...well you know now, stands for seconds.
the F in F = m a = Force. This is expressed in Newtons. M stands for mass which is expressed in kilograms.

I hope you start to see where it is all coming from now? Sorry to make a long story out of it, but I hope you have a better understanding now where it is all coming from. The answer to the previous question I asked is 360 cm.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 06:01:36 PM by Lolflatdisc »
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2013, 05:57:48 PM »
The likelihood that someone made a calculator specifically to be accurate for your location and no where else is very slim IMHO.

The likelihood of the sun algorithm creators being in the US is quite high. These online sun calculators are probably getting their sun algorithms from NASA.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 06:13:23 PM by Tom Bishop »

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DuckDodgers

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2013, 05:58:30 PM »
Why would I assume that the rest of the world is like my location?

It's not assuming the rest of the world is like your location, but that the calculations for your location is accurate, so the calculations for the rest of the world would be accurate.

If the calculations are accurate for my location, how does that verify the accuracy of the internet sun calculators? Whoever programmed it may have forced it to be at least semi-accurate with observation for their own country. It would not verify that the sun calculator is accurate world-wide.

Fortunately you are part of a community of like-minded thinkers, adn you could ask the various denizens of the FES to help.  You have people in Australia, England, Canada, Africa, South America.  You could get a lot of work done very easily... If you actually want to.

It is you RE'ers who claim that the RE calculators are true. Those are not our claims. If you stand behind your model feel free to organize such a study and buy everyone a sextant and train them on its use. Don't ask me to do your work.

What most likely happened with the online calculators was a study of just this type which the end results which you want to see published is the calculator itself.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

?

Scintific Method

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  • Trust, but verify.
Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2013, 06:01:51 PM »
If the calculations are accurate for my location, how does that verify the accuracy of the internet sun calculators? Whoever programmed it may have forced it to be at least semi-accurate with observation for their own country. It would not verify that the sun calculator is accurate world-wide.

If they're accurate for your location and my location (I live in Australia, I gather you live in the USA?), then it can't just be 'forced' to be accurate for one country.

So, in other words, in order to know whether the internet sun calculators are accurate I need to conduct my own world-wide study of it, and that zero observational evidence presently exists to corroborate the calculations, correct?

You're the one who does not accept that these calculators are accurate, and you're the one who suggested the study. There is actually plenty of evidence for you to look at if you can be bothered:

Another way to check would be to look up recorded sunrise/sunset times for various locations around the world at various times of year, then use one of these online calculators to find the times for that location at that time of year. If the two times were within 5 - 10 minutes, that would be pretty accurate.

Don't be so lazy Tom, get out there and do some research. If you don't trust what you can find online or in books, go and make your own observations. You are a Zetetic, right?
Quote from: jtelroy
...the FE'ers still found a way to deny it. Not with counter arguments. Not with proof of any kind. By simply denying it.

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."

?

Scintific Method

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2013, 06:30:43 PM »
Found the thread I was looking for:

Another way to check would be to look up recorded sunrise/sunset times for various locations around the world at various times of year, then use one of these online calculators to find the times for that location at that time of year. If the two times were within 5 - 10 minutes, that would be pretty accurate.

Come to think of it, someone on this forum already did look up those records and created a pretty reasonable map of lighted areas of the earth for the solstices and equinoxes. When I find that thread, I'll link it here.

Tom, check through as many sources as you like, you should find reasonable consistency of these times. If you do not trust your sources, then you have no choice other than to go and make these observations yourself, or collaborate with other people you trust around the world to help you make those observations.
Quote from: jtelroy
...the FE'ers still found a way to deny it. Not with counter arguments. Not with proof of any kind. By simply denying it.

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."

?

Puttah

  • 1860
Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2013, 10:40:45 PM »
I asked Google what 2+2 equals, but I don't think I can trust it because Google has close ties with the government, hence links to NASA, and I bet that the answer it gives has been forced to work for my computer alone. I cannot assume that the answer is the same for every computer in the world.
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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JP

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2013, 10:52:08 AM »
Tom, if you want to do the tests yourselves, all you would need to confirm the calculator is 2 locations, chosen at random. If they're accurate at both locations, can't you assume that there's no way whoever made the calculator ALSO chose those same locations and forced it into accuracy (which might not even be possible if he had chosen the same locations)?

And really, you don't even need to go outside if you don't want to. Go to the sun calculator and choose a few locations from around the globe - check what time the sun will be rising on a specific date. Then check the local weather for those places, the sunrise time should be listed. If they line up, then it must be right. The likelihood of all those weathermen continually being wrong but still keeping their jobs is none.

Really, you just need to grow up and do some tests for yourself - any of this would require a minimal amount of work, yet all you do is sit on these forums asking others to prove themselves to you. I can confirm that these sun calculations line up with my real world location (Tennessee), and others have done the same. But since you refuse to listen to us, why not make some simple observations of your own? Clearly you're not as zetetic as you claim to be.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2013, 01:48:17 PM »
I've also confirmed that the sunset times are not significantly different in my part of Tennessee.   Btw, happy to see another Tennessean fighting against scientific illiteracy.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2013, 03:40:11 PM »
In southern europe (france and italy) the times for sunset are also pretty accurate. I have friends in brazil that confirmed that the prediction is good for them too. So we have confirmed that the calculators work for australia, US, southern europe and brazil. It's pretty much confirmed everywhere.

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robintex

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Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2013, 04:24:50 PM »
Here a few examples:
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=102
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=248
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=145
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=2328

You can type in just about any place in the world on that website and get sunrise and sunset times.
USA isn't the only place they are available and I assume they have been kept well before NASA.
This certainly required a minimum of effort on my part.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 04:34:51 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: Sunset related observations
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2013, 05:41:46 PM »
Here is the one for the capital of my country.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=16

I can verify it for Northern Europe to be true.
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